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  #31  
Old April 10th, 2004, 06:20 PM
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((((((Luba)))))))

Don't be sorry for showing the truth!

I'm so sorry about Heidi!!! Your a really super person!
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  #32  
Old April 10th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Karin Karin is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luba
Thank you Chany (sweet hugs to you)


I've left space and warned about the picture, I"m sorry I should have done so to begin with. I think I was just so very angry and upset today I wasn't thinking straight, only acting from emotion.


Pls forgive me!
I have seen that image live countless times. In the 1980's I worked for our countys Rabies & Animal control. I was the pound supervisor. Three times a week unclaimed animals were euthanized and brought to the county landfill. We did call ahead so they would have a fresh trench dug by the time we arrived, having up to 100 animals each visit required a trench.
This was before the county created a pet adoption program.
300 + a week. This wore on my soul. I left that very good paying job with benefits, for a part time job with half the pay and no benefits. I learned how to smile again for that move.
I have since worked in shelters and vet clinics. Still have to euthanize but I cried for everyone of them.
Two years ago I found myself unemployed and fighting cancer...bills piling up too. The county offered me my old job back, (my former partner was now the director) although times have changed and they have a great adoption program in place, and the Neuter Commuter I refused the job. The pay would set me for life, but since my surgeries I can no longer lift large animals. The number one reason I refused it was my heart was not in it either. I have a problem with killing an animal just because no one wants it.
I still blame bad breeders and owners for the massacres that happen everyday, everywhere.

Now I am crying.
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  #33  
Old April 10th, 2004, 06:59 PM
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Oh man Karin ((((( hugs )))))) You've seen a lot of horrible things..... It is nice to see a change in policies however small since the 80's though I bet. I love the "Neuter Commuter"....what a great concept!! Anyways, to all you ladies who do so much, and cause us many tears on this forum....thank you for what you do to help soooo many little (and big) fur bums!! You are all angels with furry tails!!!
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1 house gecko - George (RIP)
2 giant african land snailS - Kaimah (RIP) & Kamau (RIP)
2 baby african land snails - Tiny & Pokey (RIP)
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  #34  
Old April 10th, 2004, 07:04 PM
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Lucky Rescue I guess I'm not communicating what I'm trying to say very well. And I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Karin I think yes there should be way more responsible owners
out there. Spaying and neutering is one of the best things we can do for our pets.
Luba, why do you ask for forgiveness? There is nothing to forgive!
Those kind of pictures need to be shown!! It might sink in to more people. (we've seen how obviously well it goes to give somebody ****). I wish there were more people like you
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  #35  
Old April 10th, 2004, 07:22 PM
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OMG.
My tummy is sick now.
My contact popped out because of all the tears.

It is just so very heartbreaking seeing this.But this is reality.

I honestly think there should be a s/n law.And if it's not done,then a heafty fine is given out.

It's bad enough when we have to pts a loving member of our family due to health problems beyond our control,but to have these poor animals put down for lack of space or they are not wanted just ticks me off.K,so that wasn't a word I really wanted to use.

To answer your question LR, Yes,they do get s/n....Like I said,he does not sell animals in his pet store.And this is his own pet store.Lets just say this is his way of rescuing.I guess he would rather see the kittens come to him then dropped off at a shelter.
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  #36  
Old April 10th, 2004, 07:44 PM
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Chany I just didn't want to upset anyone who already knows like we do!

Karin
I am humbled more by reading your words and I cannot fathum what you had to see and deal with.

The deeds of a job done because of greed and ignorance. Visions in your mind and memories never forgotten because of those heartless mindless people.
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  #37  
Old April 10th, 2004, 07:50 PM
Karin Karin is offline
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Smooches to all, I did not intend to bring ya down, being Easter.

But lest we forget, just like 9/11....people who care must keep on striving to change laws and fight for those who cannot fight themselves.
We may be a small chunk here on this rock, but we can bark LOUD!
Unfortunatly this problem will still existed long after we have joined our fur friends.
Keeping the images in minds eye is a must.
Not posting pictures like that is playing ostrich. This is the real world. Bark Very Loud....

"nuf said, have a great weekend.

Coming here to this board is like puppy breath, we need to find a way to bottle it...
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  #38  
Old April 10th, 2004, 08:33 PM
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I like you Karin
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  #39  
Old April 11th, 2004, 07:23 PM
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I don't think there was anything wrong with that picture Luba. I think It was terrible, but it was the truth. I cry almost everytime I come on this site. Either tears of pain from reading of some horrific mistreatment of an animal, or tears of joy from reading how much someone loved & cared for one. The truth may hurt sometimes, but it is also what is said to set you free..
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  #40  
Old April 11th, 2004, 07:28 PM
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I know what you mean.
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  #41  
Old April 11th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Karin Karin is offline
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You have to take the bad along with the good., the only way an animal lover can strive to educate those who have no idea how to become a responsible pet parent.
If everything was rosey about being a pet parent then everyone without a clue would have a pet...and that is the problem!

I have a roommate, not a pet. I work to pay for her vet bills.

Just as I did for my kids when they were young.
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  #42  
Old April 12th, 2004, 10:27 PM
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After reading everyone's posts, I wanted to give you all a breeders perspective, even though I breed Abyssinians, and most of the conversation has been about dogs.

I breed because I love the Abyssinian breed. I want the breed to continue to be as beautiful and as true as it was when the Egyptians worshipped them. Every cat that comes into my house or that is born here is like my own child. When you look around my house, you will see that the cats have more possesions than I do!

Anyways, sorry, I think I'm sounding defensive and I don't mean to. I just wanted to adress Chaney's cost issue and the 'like your adopting a child' statement. I sell my kittens for $500 and do not let them go until at least 12 weeks, usually its more like 16 weeks. I have had people contact me and then tell me that they can get an Aby for $200 and at 6 weeks. They say they want a 'kitten'. I tell them to go to a shelter for a kitten and then to describe the $200 Aby. The cat they always describe is nothing like mine. Usually the kitten will have an Abyssinian mother and who knows about the father. The person selling this kitten for $200 probably bought the female from a breeder and broke the contract by not getting her spayed and now there are kittens. It disgusts me. Needless to say, anyone who has a problem with the price gets told that they will not get an Abyssinian from me. I take that back, one time a man bought two brothers from me and I gave him a $50 discount. 3 1/2 years later, he threatened to put one of them down for behavioral reasons that he created and I took the cat back. That's the end of my discounts.

I have also been told that buying a cat from me is harder than adopting a child. Well, you see, to me animals are like children. They are a LIFETIME responsibility. I birth and raise these babies and cry when they leave me. And I know I can't keep them all, so I want to make sure that they are going to have as good of a life with someone else as they would with me. If someone has a problem with that, then they don't get one of my cats. Like the man who called me when one of his cats was 3 1/2 years old. His shelter cat was beating my cat up so he was going to put the victim down! At some point in the conversation he mentioned that his daughter was two hours past curfew the night before. I asked him if he was going to euthanize her the next time she was late. I know that was extreme, but that's how I feel. When you take on a pet, its for better or worse. If something is wrong with the animal, you fix it. You spend time with it, you meet its basic needs...and you do that for life. The animal didn't pick you, you picked it out and it depends on you. There are too many vets out there who will euthanize for no reason and it gives people an easy way out.

Also, I make the people come see the kitten/cat they want at least twice. The first time I get to know them and they get to know the litter. I then give them lots of fliers and information about the breed, spaying, leukemia, FIP, and various others as well as my contract. I ask them to read it all and ask questions before they make a decision.

Also, my contracts require that all cats get fixed. I am not going to let someone breed a 'pet' quality Aby just because they want to experience having kittens. If they want that experience, they can go volunteer at the local shelter. Besides overpopulation, breeding pet quality is detrimental to the breed. Of course every cat can't be perfect and even the non-perfects are gorgeous, you want to only breed the select few that are of superb quality. I also don't generally give papers on my cats. Unless they are wanting to brag to their friends that their cat is a pedigree, the only other reason for wanting papers is to breed. This is a point that I think TICA for cats and AKC for dogs differ. I've never had anyone even request papers which to me shows that they are more interested in the cat than the papers.

As for the money issue, besides trying to help with expenses, there are several other reasons I charge money. If a person goes out and pays $500 for a cat, they will generally value/want it more. Its like with anything else. What means more to you - the free couch a friend gave you or the one you saved and bought brand new? Also, if a person is willing/able to spend $500 on a kitten, I also feel like this person will be willing to attend to any medical needs that the cat may have over its life.

And so far (aside from the one man - Max is in a WONDERFUL new home now, though!) I have found great homes for all my cats. I get updates on every single one of them at least once a year (usually more) and lots of pictures! It makes me feel so good that my cats bring so much happiness to families all over the states.

And just to let you know that I'm not profiting at all by what I do (I'm usually in the hole) here are some average expenses when I have one litter of only three kittens for four months. I look at it as if I have to have a job, they do too, lol!

Stud Fee - $500
Monthly Dry Food - $75; $300 for 4 months
Monthly Wet Food - $25; $100 for 4 months
Toys/Scratchers (yes these are necessary) - $20; $80 for 4 months
Vaccinations - $100
Vet Costs/Health Certificates - $150

That's a total of $1230 before the kittens even leave my house. That's also assuming that there are no 'problem' vet visits, which happen occasionally. Its also not including any show expenses. So even though it looks like I make $270, I'm not even taking into account the amount that its cost to take care of the queen and keep her healthy.

So you see, that's the difference between a back yard breeder and a responsible one.

Sorry this was so long, I guess I just felt the need to get it all out, lol!
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  #43  
Old April 13th, 2004, 08:11 AM
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I believe that there some responsible backyard breeders out there, that care about their pet and their puppies\kittens. As for the picture I'm glad I know where my Travis is buried in his favorite place to be up north on our property. May his spirit roam forever free.
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  #44  
Old April 13th, 2004, 08:46 AM
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Where have you been hiding numberoneaggie?...LOL

We have seen your babies.And they are just beautiful.

Breeding cats and dogs are different though.As for cats,I don't know to much about them.Breeding that is.

But I know alot more about the dogs.

Like Chany,there are alot of people who don't know the difference between a responsible breeder and a BYB.And now she does.And is using the info to help others.

As for the registration papers,like I have stated before,it is the law with the Canadian Kennel Club.All these dogs are registered with them.And the kennels are also registered to the club.These kennels must be registered to the Kennel Club.If these dogs are sold without papers,then they are not classified as purebreds.And pedigree papers are very important.When showing the dogs,this means that they are of the breed standard.And all genetic and health testing is done.If they fail any of the testing,they do not and will not breed.

doggy lover...there are no responsible byb's...The do not test their dogs for health and genetics.And they breed in the first heat.Which no responsible breeder does.And they sell to anyone who wants a pup.They don't have a s/n contract and they don't have a non-breeding contract.And they don't have a waiting list.Hence the selling to anyone.And they don't have pedigree papers.Pedigree papers mean they can go back 5-6 generations.
So once again,there are no responsible BYB's.

All responsible licenced breeders show their dogs.
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  #45  
Old April 13th, 2004, 10:27 AM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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numberoneaggie, I agree with nearly everything you say, and it does sound like you are doing it right.

The only thing I disagree with is this:
Quote:
If a person goes out and pays $500 for a cat, they will generally value/want it more.
That is sadly not true. Our rescue has had purebreed Maine Coons, Oriental shorthairs, Persians, Himalayans and Siamese - all expensive and all dumped.

As for dogs, we have helped rehome a St.Bernards, Fox Terrier, Redbone Coon hound and even a Dogue de Bordeaux ($$$) - all purebreds and all expensive, I'm sure.

We just adopted out a goregeous Red Persian whose owners wouldn't pay for surgery he needed, and right now we have a sealpoint and flamepoint Siamese looking for homes.

When someone wants an animal OUT, they don't care if they paid 1000$ for it - it's GONE!
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  #46  
Old April 13th, 2004, 10:47 AM
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That's true, LR. Sadly, there is no guarantee what will happen once the cat leaves my house. And yes, purebreed cats and dogs end up in shelters all the time. I do have a clause in my contract that states that the cat can never be given or sold to a shelter, research facility, etc. I almost went to court over this issue, too. I reserve the right to take the cat back without compensation to them and place it in another home. I know a lot of times that these contracts aren't worth the paper their written on, but I have all the clauses in there to protect the cats. I just have try to make sure that the people who come to me realize that they are making an additon to their family and a lifetime investment.
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  #47  
Old April 13th, 2004, 01:03 PM
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So let me get this right its OK for cat BYB but not for dog, thats the message I'm getting, and how do you know what the dogs are tested for like i said not all breeders are the same, some can't be lumped with puppy mills.
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  #48  
Old April 13th, 2004, 01:17 PM
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I'm sorry you're getting that message, but that's not the point at all.

I included my information to show the side of responsible breeder, even though its cats and not dogs. I don't know if there are any dog breeders on this forum. I wanted to show how getting an animal from a responsible breeder is a much bigger process than picking one out from the bed of a truck at Wal-Mart. I also wanted to explain the reasons for the prices that are charged for animals.

At any rate, I am not a back yard breeder by any means. I am a registered cattery and my cats are all registered (even though I don't register all kittens), tested, and healthy. So I'm not sure how you got the message that I was saying back yard breeders are ok for cats and not dogs.

As for knowing what dogs get tested for - you ASK questions. All breeds are different and some are genetically predisposed for certain things. My family has always had labs and they are notorious for hip problems. A reputable breeder will have the mother and usually father present...AND LET YOU SEE THEM. If you are not allowed to see where the animals spend most of their time, something is wrong!!! A reputable breeder will know the health history of the puppy's relatives. A reputable breeder will also run the tests that are required by AKC as well as the ones necessary to that breed.

However, you as the future pet owner need to do your own research. You need to get on the internet or go to the library and read everything you can about the breed. Once you are educated, you will be able to ask educated questions.

At any rate, yes, back yard breeders and puppy mills can be lumped together. The main motivation for both is not the preservation, improvement, and health of the breed, its profit. They don't care what happens to the animal once that money is placed in their hands.
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  #49  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:10 PM
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Like I said,I can't answer about cat breeder.I don't have the knowlege about that.

doggy lover.when a responsible breeder gets their dog tested,the vet will give them a written guarentee stating that they are clear of any health and genetic problems.They will show you this at the time when you visit them.Males are 18 months when tested and females are 24 months.Different breeds have different health and genetic problems.I have 2 GDS's.They are prone to hip and elbow dysplasia.And many other problems.Knock on wood,they have not gotten any of the problems.Both parents where tested and cleared.And my boys have been tested also.Yukon and Tron are both 8 now,and I still keep in contact with my breeder.Who is retired.

As for the dogs that LR has rehomed,10-1 they are the result of BYB's.

ALL licenced responsible breeders are the same.They all test their dogs.And will not breed them id there is a problem.
BYB's do not breed to better the breed.They do it for the money.

And BYB'S do not show their dogs.They have no titles,and I'm not just talking about the showing either.They don't know their dogs pedigree.They do not offer to take the pup back.And have no contracts.If I didn't get Yukon and Tron fixed,I would have had to pay a $5.000 doller fine.How would she have known?Well her contract stipulated that she see the vets report.

Is any of this making sense to you puppy lover?The difference between a BYB and a responsible breeder?
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  #50  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:20 PM
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Someone posted a chart a while back that showed the difference between a backyard breeder and a responsible breeder. I thought I saved the sight, but I can't find it.

It was a reallyyy good chart, and it really helped me understand the difference. I've never considered getting a pet from a breeder when there are so many dogs and cats out there that need to be rescued, so it never really ever crossed my mind that there are people out there who just do it for money. That chart opened my eyes!!

I think it may have been LuckyRescue that posted it...does this ring a bell to anyone????
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1 dog - Brick
2 cats - Spunky & Tux
1 very mean tiger barb (who killed all of our other fish)
3 leopard geckos - Dave, Jenn & Jane (gone back to their original owner)

GONE TO CRITTER HEAVEN:
1 house gecko - George (RIP)
2 giant african land snailS - Kaimah (RIP) & Kamau (RIP)
2 baby african land snails - Tiny & Pokey (RIP)
1 Veiled Chameleon - Chip (RIP)
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  #51  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:27 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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doggy lover, you say:
Quote:
I believe that there some responsible backyard breeders out there, that care about their pet and their puppies\kittens
If they do not health test their stock for all genetic defects known to their breed, and show them to championships in conformation or performance before breeding, then how can they be responsible? What is their reason for breeding their pets?

As for numberoneaggie being a byber, everything she has said makes me think she is one of the few responsible breeders around. She shows her cats, health tests them, does not sell them too young, and has a strict contract, does follow-up and will take them back at any point in their lives.

If everyone who breeds did this, the shelters would not be so packed.
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Old April 13th, 2004, 02:35 PM
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I found this interesting website....might help some people understand!!

http://www.adoptarescuepet.org/byb.htm
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1 dog - Brick
2 cats - Spunky & Tux
1 very mean tiger barb (who killed all of our other fish)
3 leopard geckos - Dave, Jenn & Jane (gone back to their original owner)

GONE TO CRITTER HEAVEN:
1 house gecko - George (RIP)
2 giant african land snailS - Kaimah (RIP) & Kamau (RIP)
2 baby african land snails - Tiny & Pokey (RIP)
1 Veiled Chameleon - Chip (RIP)
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  #53  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:43 PM
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Here it is.


http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html
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  #54  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:46 PM
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Yeahhhh!! Thanks mona!!!! THAT will help some people undestand too!!! I hope!!! I know it helped Tim and I understand better, and now we can relay this info to people who don't know any better!!! EDUCATION is the key!!!

Thanks!!
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Chris ~~ ZOO OWNER
1 dog - Brick
2 cats - Spunky & Tux
1 very mean tiger barb (who killed all of our other fish)
3 leopard geckos - Dave, Jenn & Jane (gone back to their original owner)

GONE TO CRITTER HEAVEN:
1 house gecko - George (RIP)
2 giant african land snailS - Kaimah (RIP) & Kamau (RIP)
2 baby african land snails - Tiny & Pokey (RIP)
1 Veiled Chameleon - Chip (RIP)
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  #55  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
As for the dogs that LR has rehomed,10-1 they are the result of BYB's
Around here, the odds are they came from the booming puppy mills, via a pet store.
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  #56  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:48 PM
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Great link Catt...I save this one also....
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Old April 13th, 2004, 02:54 PM
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Found another one..this one made me cry!! Sniff sniff!!!

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delp...ppy_mills.html

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Chris ~~ ZOO OWNER
1 dog - Brick
2 cats - Spunky & Tux
1 very mean tiger barb (who killed all of our other fish)
3 leopard geckos - Dave, Jenn & Jane (gone back to their original owner)

GONE TO CRITTER HEAVEN:
1 house gecko - George (RIP)
2 giant african land snailS - Kaimah (RIP) & Kamau (RIP)
2 baby african land snails - Tiny & Pokey (RIP)
1 Veiled Chameleon - Chip (RIP)
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  #58  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:54 PM
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Wonderful site, Mona. I know for me its very easy to see the difference between the good and bad breeders, so I have a hard time understanding why other people are so confused about it. More people need to read this kind of information. Thank you so much for making it available...I'll be adding this to my information packet for hopeful homes!
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  #59  
Old April 13th, 2004, 02:58 PM
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OMG Catt.....I'm crying so much after reading that. Its so sad. I wish more people could see it from the animal's point of view.
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  #60  
Old April 13th, 2004, 03:01 PM
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Catt31 Catt31 is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,003
I know aggie...its soooo very sad!!

Here is another link....interesting!!

http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm

K, I'm done surfing now....too many sad articles and tears...I need to compose myself so I'm not a blubbering idiot when Tim gets home!! He already thinks I'm nuts for crying when I go onto the rescue sites and look through all the dogs and cats!!
__________________
Chris ~~ ZOO OWNER
1 dog - Brick
2 cats - Spunky & Tux
1 very mean tiger barb (who killed all of our other fish)
3 leopard geckos - Dave, Jenn & Jane (gone back to their original owner)

GONE TO CRITTER HEAVEN:
1 house gecko - George (RIP)
2 giant african land snailS - Kaimah (RIP) & Kamau (RIP)
2 baby african land snails - Tiny & Pokey (RIP)
1 Veiled Chameleon - Chip (RIP)
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