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Old April 9th, 2004, 03:01 PM
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Backyard Breeders

After reviewing that article in the chihuahua(?) thread about " responsible breeders vs. backyard breeders" I was a little upset. I guess according to this article I bought Abbey from a"backyard breeder". Even though she is tatooed,papered, father won a title for a show dog( and no I didn't ask to see his papers ). She's registered though so I never worried if he won titles or not.
I did consider going to a Von something or other for a Rottie but really couldn't see any difference in dogs. I know, I know I'm sure I'll hear the difference even though I've read it before.
Now don't get mad, but the only difference I could see is their rules and their price.
Anyone that says any breeder is not in it for some money is lying.
If that was true then their prices would go down. And their rules I'm sorry but if I'm going to spend $1500.00 on a dog then I'll decide if she'll have pups ( not that I would ) but I know alot of people who say that.
I was impressed with I guess my "backyard breeder", and the reason I'm calling him that is there were maybe 4 traits I could pin
on him, but he also had many,many traits of the "responsible breeder"
I don't think you'll ever get rid of the "backyard breeder" but I think you could improve them or at least grade them different.
I'm sorry but where I'm from alot of people are discouraged by the professional breeder. I mean some of them act like your adopting a child ( Abbey and Dixie mean the world to me, but they are not even close to the love I feel for my children).
Please be kind! I'm just saying this so you can understand where alot of people are coming from.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 03:41 PM
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Hey there chickie.

Don't worry.There are MANY people who don't know the difference.That's why we are trying to educate them as much as possible.

As for the registration papers,that doesn't matter,neither does the tatoo.Backyard breeders can still have that all done.

As for breeders acting like you are adopting a child.THAT is a responsible breeder.They want to know everything about you and know 100% that you are going to be a great owner to their Baby.
Unfortunately there is no other name to call them but Backyard Breeders.They are not breeding to better the breed at all.

Responsible breeders do not breed their Bitch in her first heat.And they are certified for health and genetics.

Before I got Yukon and Tron,I was put on a waiting list.At 12 weeks I took them home.Mind you,this is the same breeder I got my first GSD Cujo.She was breeding and showing for well over 20 years.5 generations of champions.They were not show quality.But that's not what I was looking for.

Licenced responsible breeders do not advertise in the paper.And they are registered in the Kennel Club.And the kennel club is the only place you will find a responsible breeder.Cause they are the ones who show their dogs.These dogs are bred to the breed standard.And they also have a non-breeding contract and also a s/n contract.And if you go against this contract,you are given a heafty fine.I know of an english bulldog breeder who will fine you $10.000.My breeder was giving a fine of $5.000 to those who went against the contract.Guess what,no one was ever fined.

This is why it is soooooooo important for people to not only research the breed,but also the breeder.

But if I was to get another if anything happened to my guys,I would rescue.Hubby has a thing for Boxers and I have a thing for the GSD.So it will be a battle.LOL

I just wish more people would know the difference between the Backyard breeder and the responsible breeder.

As for being kind,I'm always kind....
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Old April 9th, 2004, 04:53 PM
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As a rottweiler owner, I have to ask, did both the sire and the dam of you lovely pup have all of their health checks done? I don't mean the quick trip to the local vet, I mean are their hips, elbows and hearts certified as healthy.

Since I spend a lot of my free time fighting Breed Specific Legislation, I can tell you that not every Tom, Dick and Harry should own a rottweiler. These are strong, powerful dogs that need to be place in a home that has the time, knowledge and CASH to make sure that they have the best dog - behaviourally speaking, on the block. Nothing less will do. For every negative thing on the news that is done by a rottweiler, 100 of us have to do something positive.

I fully expect the breeder that I buy my next puppy from to ask me considerably more questions then I can think of to ask them. I also know that the price they are asking doesn't come close to making up for the money they have spent feeding, training, showing, vetting, grooming, and providing their dogs with a safe environment to live in.

And I don't just want a dog that will look good in the show ring either. The breeder I want a pup from shows in many venues, not just conformation.

I would gladly pay the extra cash to get a dog that is not just good looking but sound in temperment. Your backyard breeder certainly doesn't care.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 05:35 PM
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Actually I couldn't tell you if they had their health checks. I didn't even know what that was until I started checking out this forum.
Yes rottweilers are strong powerful dogs and no not everyone should own them. I crammed on the research for the temperment of the rottweiler again before we got Abbey. We have had a previous rottweiler before, they truly are special dogs.
Seriously though your saying that $1500.00 per pup at 8 pups per litter they're not compensated? If they want to put the effort and money into showing their dogs, go hard. But they are compensated.
All I'm trying to say is not everyone can afford a $1500.00 dog. And yes they better have the money to pay for quality foods and vet care for this dogs life, but you're not going to get rid of the backyard breeder.
You understand what the breeders do and are willing to pay for it.
Which is great! But not everyone cares that much about a dog. Yes they probably should, but its not going to happen any time soon.
You would not believe the looks we got for buying a registered dog.
But as a parent myself I would not deprive my children the joy of having a family pet.
I thought I was doing well by buying a registered dog. Now I find out its just another backyard breeder, but I wouldn't trade her for a professional breeders dog, no matter what health problems we're looking at. Because now she's family.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 06:31 PM
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Unhappy

i know this probably won't be a popular opinion, but I just wish everyone would adopt. It seems a shame to spend 1500.00 on a papered animal, when there are so many mutts out there dying. The best dogs I have ever known were rescued.
I just came back from my vet today & was disgusted by the number of people in there who obviously didn't know anything about their dog except that it had papers, but were proudly talking about how many litters they had produced. People making deals in the parking lot to stud their dogs out to other owners. Until people stop buying dogs from these "backyard breeders" it will remain a big business and unfortunately, so few people are educated as to the difference that dogs will continue to die. Papered & mutt alike. It's sad.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 07:20 PM
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Yes, Rescue Animals should be first, but is that going to happen? No. Professional breeders should be the only ones selling dogs or maybe just certain dogs, but is that going to happen? No, probably not or a least not for a long time yet to come.
I think a lot of these backyard breeders could be lumped the same as puppy mills, but not all.
Some people shouldn't breed dogs, some people shouldn't own dogs but how do you think all of this could be changed?
Maybe in gradual steps?
Or what about people who love mutts? How do you convince them
that purebred dogs are better?
No, I'm sorry but IMO I don't think they're going anywhere but I'd like to make it better. The only problem I keep having is how?
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Old April 9th, 2004, 07:32 PM
hollybug26 hollybug26 is offline
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I wish I knew.. The problem boils down to greedy & irresponsible people. Unforunately, until those are outlawed, these problems will remain. I think this website is one of the best I've seen in terms of educating people as to what a responsible breeder is. Those of you who post regularly and provide so much great advice & information, keep it up. You help more than you may know & maybe that's the first best step toward making a change. I've learned a lot on this site. Others will too.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 07:49 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
Seriously though your saying that $1500.00 per pup at 8 pups per litter they're not compensated?
If they are backyard breeders, then yes - they are making a great profit.

If they are the right kind of breeders, then no, they are not.

Do you know how much it costs to travel the country going to dog shows? Paying stud fees to a stud you may have fly your bitch to?
Getting ears and tails done(depending on breed) done on a litter of 9, plus getting all puppies health checks, shots and deworming? Feeding 9 puppies until they are 12 weeks old?

AND any reputable breeder knows which dog of theirs is breeding quality and have no-breeding contracts for a good reason! They do NOT want anyone breeding a dog of theirs that is not titled and worthy of breeding - it would make them look bad. Their reputation is all they have and it would be put on the line.

Reputable breeders would NOT sell a puppy without a s/n contract to someone who says, "I'm sorry but if I'm going to spend $1500.00 on a dog then I'll decide if she'll have pups ." NO way.

A backyard breeder's only question to you would be "Got the money?" You can get a dog from them and breed it to death for all they care.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 08:12 PM
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I have known some people who breed dogs I guess you would call them backyard breeders as they are not regestered breeders by a kennel club, but to lump them into puppy mills I don't think so. They breed their dog once a year and sell to families that they check out. If you want the dog regestered you can or if you want a family pet without the paper work thats ok too. To say that they don't care about their dogs and puppies is unfair, they take care of them the same as you or I, maybe its a little extra cash for them, but how can you say that someone who has been doing this for 15 years doesn't know what their doing?
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Old April 9th, 2004, 08:36 PM
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Nope I have no idea what it costs them to do all of that stuff. I know what the vet bills would be worth and cost of feeding, but as for showing them, or stud services, I have no idea.
Do you really think that many people out there care? No, a few do, but not nearly enough.
Maybe no one should be breeding until all of the rescues were adopted.
Is that going to happen? Again, no.
I think its great that people here are trying to help, but your goals of getting rid of backyard breeders are unrealistic.
If you educate people of what to look for in bad backyard breeders, I think you'll be making a step in the right direction.
I think Rescue needs to be advertised more where I live, and I'm going to do some checking into that.
I also think there are some terrible backyard breeders out there, but again there are some that are not.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 08:40 PM
hollybug26 hollybug26 is offline
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I think the point is that unless a breeder is breeding to better the breed, it's not responsible breeding. If someone just wants a family pet, there are so many out there that already need homes. There is no need to purposely bring more animals into the world with no guarantee that they will find a home when there are so many already doomed. I'm by no means an expert & don't claim to be one, it just seems like common sense to me. There is an adoption board for a reason.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 08:53 PM
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Aaah common sense! Wouldn't that be nice if everyone had a little common sense. I don't think we'd see some of the regulars here getting tired of saying " Your animal needs to see a vet ASAP " if everyone had common sense, but alas they don't.
I personally also have no interest in breeding my girls. I know I'd be stuck with 3 extra shih-tzus and 8 rotties because I'd be worried about the homes they'd be going to. Much cheaper to get the dogs fixed.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 08:53 PM
hollybug26 hollybug26 is offline
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One thing I just learned.. According to the humane society in my city, one unaltered dog & her offspring can produce 67,000 dogs in 6 years. One unaltered cat & her offspring can produce 420,000 cats in 7 years. So, just one animal not properly cared for makes a huge impact. That having been said, it seems like just one responsible pet owner can make an equally huge impact. It seems like an insurmountable problem, but each person who makes a change makes a difference.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 08:58 PM
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Spaying and neutering, yes I believe every responsible pet owner
should have that done.
I also believe if people know what to look for in a "bad" backyard breeder that might be a step to wiping them out. If they can't sell their dogs then they're not going to breed are they?
But someone has to distinguish between an acceptable backyard breeder and a bad one.
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Old April 9th, 2004, 09:24 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
But someone has to distinguish between an acceptable backyard breeder and a bad one.
There are no "acceptable" bybers. They are breeding ONLY to make money - since they do not show and title their dogs, what other reason would they have?

These are the people who are partly responsible for filling up the shelters and rescues. Where do you think all the dumped purebreds come from? Backyard breeders, that's where. How can they be acceptable?

The rest of the animals come from irresponsible and ignorant people who don't get their dogs and cats s/n for a variety of dumb reasons.

No reputable breeder would ever see his/her puppies in shelters, or petshops.

Dogs and cats are just merchandise to these people - supply and demand. If the demand would stop, the supply would dry up. Why breed if there are no bucks to be made?
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Old April 9th, 2004, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Do you really think that many people out there care? No, a few do, but not nearly enough.
I belong to a rottweiler forum 10,000 members strong and I can tell you they ALL care. We care tremendously about dogs that are crippled by hip dysplasia before they are a year old. Or that drop dead in the yard of Sub Aortic Stenosis. Last year we raised $10,000 for rescues across the country. Many a transfer of rescued dogs have been arranged and carried out. All of the breeders on the forum do rescue work and show their dogs in a variety of areas. Nothing is more important then the good of the breed.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 01:04 AM
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If you want your dogs registered you can or if you want a family pet without the paper work it's ok too?

There is no "can" when it comes to registering a litter.And it's NOT ok to sell one as a pet without it also.

ALL litters are registered at birth.It is ilegal to sell purebred puppies without papers.If they are sold without papers,then they are not classified as purebreds.All pups must have registration papers.

It is also ilegal to,lets say for example sell a pup for $800 with papers or sell the same pup for $400 without papers.

I have been a member of the Canadian Kennel Club for 20 years,so this is how I know all this.

Chany,it cost alot to show a dog.A very close friend of the family shows his Afghan Hound.He can spend up to $50,000 a year...Cash has earned 6 points.He needs 4 more to get to best in show...

I also have to say this.Chany has realized that she got Abbey from a Backyard Breeder.But how did she find this out?She came on here and read the link that was posted.Did she know about the difference between a BYB and a Responsible breeder?Probably not.But she found out on here.

Who can educate the people who dont's come on here before they come on a site like this?
Or how many people have come on here saying they got a pup from a petstore once we asked where they got it from.They never new that they come from puppy mills.And why not?Cause no one ever told them because alot of people don't even know.

Sorry guys,I have been in a heavy thinking mood today...

Who says blondes don't think..............LMAO
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Old April 10th, 2004, 07:23 AM
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O.K. thats a lot of information I did not know before and I always
appreciate further education.
Mona's right I thought I was buying from a responsible breeder. I can't and wouldn't do anything about it now, its too late. But somebody else may come on line who needs to hear this sort of information before getting a family pet.
I know people around home have heard with or without papers before, now I know I can tell them that is B.S.
LavenderRott I'm glad there is 10,000 people out there at least that do care but still that is a pretty small number compared to the people who couldn't care less about if their dog has something wrong or not. If the dog is going to cost them some money put it down and get a new one. These are the same people who would never spend $1500.00 on purchasing a dog let alone saving it.
The bottom line the backyard breeder isn't going anywhere for awhile.
Spaying and neutering, and puppy mills are something I'm definitely going to be explaining to people around here. I know I'll be just frustrating myself and annoying others if I start on the backyard breeders.
So I'll be taking small steps, I know its something your not going to agree with but I feel if I start on the backyard breeding people are just going to close their ears and walk away. I'd much rather have them s/n their dogs for now or at least if they're not going to buy from a reputable breeder, at least not support the puppy mills.
Because imo that is so much worse than "some" backyard breeders.
You could not pay me to buy an animal from a pet store from what I've learned, so thats another small step.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 09:38 AM
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See,this is what I like to hear.

Someone who is actually being educated enough on this subject to pass this info over to other people.

Yes there are alot of people who care and love their pets.But there are also those who don't..Just look in the shelters.And on the streets.I have seen my share of dogs being abused with their owners.Dogs that are pulling on their leashes to the point of them choking.Or the dogs being hit for not obeying the owner.Yes,I do make it a point of saying something to the point of being told to mind my own buisness.And the puppies that don't want to walk on their leash and being dragged.

And you are so right Chany.BYB's are not going anywhere.At least for now.And there needs to be a law stopping the sale of puppies being sold in pet stores.And trust me,I have had my say in them.I try and educate the people who want to buy in there.That is the only reason I go in there.For those who do know what puppy mills are all about,they walk right out.For those who don't,I tell them to look it up on the net and then decide if they still want to buy.I was in there a while ago.There was a beautiful Collie pup,just like Lubas Sadie.The poor thing was about 4 months old and couldn't move around.Well,mouthy me spoke up.The workers were not impressed at all.Did I care?Heck no.

So how do we educate people?Should we start handing out fliers?Make up gient billboards?What do we do?Not everyone comes on sites like these.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 10:08 AM
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I really wish I knew Mona. I'll definitely be speaking up like you do
in pet stores to people so they have a chance at understanding how some of their decisions will be affecting future dogs.
And I'll definitely talk to people around home who are looking for pets about Rescue, s/n and puppy mills.
I don't know but its something thats going to be bugging me for awhile.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 10:24 AM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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If you know of anyone who wants to buy a puppy or kitten from a pet store, just show them this.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 11:40 AM
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Hmmmmmm,do you REALLY want to know me?...........LMFAO.. .

I am so glad that you want to help educate others.It's a start.But you will find that some don't want to be educated.Unfortunately.

LR posted a good link.And there are so very many more like that.

As for kittens,the to come from mills.

But I do need to say one thing.In the town close to where my sister lives,there is one pet store there.And they do have the odd kittens there.But they are brought in there from someone who's cat had kittens.So what they did was bring the ones that were left to this petstore.Usually there is no more then 3 in there.So the owner of the pet store does sell them.At least they are not dumping them in a farmers field.Right?And they don't always have kittens in there.And he does make sure that they will go to a good home.

I can't tell you how many cats,pregnant cats and kittens have ended up on my sisters farm.It's sad.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 11:43 AM
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Ok already having a bad day, scratch that HORRIBLE day! Finding out Heidi is dead then I click on the link and another link and compulsively crying now!!

As much as I see, I never get used to it, ...never want to get used to it and will never end my devotion to trying in as little ways as I can to prevent this.

The picture below is very shocking..... I'm sorry that I didn't think of warning you all earlier. My sincere apologies esp to LR (sorry my dear friend)






































































Picture is coming soon, so if you don't want to look scroll NOW































NOW!!
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Old April 10th, 2004, 01:05 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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OMG LUBA! I didn't need to see that........

Quote:
And he does make sure that they will go to a good home
Does he spay and neuter them before selling them? If not, he is directly responsible for some of the bodies in the pic Luba posted.

Yes, many pet stores get kittens and puppies from what they call "private breeders" which are just bybers and small time mills. It's all the same thing, big or small.

It's very possible to have puppy and kittens mills in a private home, if the dogs are very small breeds.

It all stinks big time.

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Old April 10th, 2004, 01:10 PM
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I am sorry LR sometime shocking people with reality is the only way to get through to them that stuff of this magnitude does happen

HUGS
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Old April 10th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Yes, Luba - some people literally need to be hit over the head to get the message.

What I did on the pit bull board I moderate is ask anyone who wants to post graphic or shocking pics to put a warning in the title if they start a new thread, or just put a link, with a warning, if the post is in the thread.

That way, people (LIKE ME) who don't wish to view such pics needn't.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 01:25 PM
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Thanks L.R. for posting that site and you to Luba for the picture.
Thats what people need to see so they can begin to understand whats really happening out there.
I don't know much about city areas either as for byb's being like mills, but I know they're not around here.
Doggy Lover's post described exactly what kind of byb are around here.
It may not be acceptable where you are but it is here and thats not going to change.
Luba I'm so sorry about Heidi but there was nothing more you could have done. Please get some rest because you must be exhausted.
Mona_b, Every year we have cats visiting us to. We tried in the beginning to save some but cold hard facts hit you pretty fast in the country. We can't have a cat in the house because I'm allergic to them, so we try to help by giving them some food in their travels. The ones that will come near us well we try to find homes for them.
Lucky Rescue, I can't even begin to imagine the frustration you must be feeling with me right now.
You deal with a totally different group of people than we do and I understand how you feel. Every day seeing unwanted dogs and cats dying must be very hard but a different approach has to be taken or people just won't listen. I'm sorry if I've upset you.
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Old April 10th, 2004, 02:23 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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[QUOTE]You deal with a totally different group of people than we do and I understand how you feel. Every day seeing unwanted dogs and cats dying must be very hard but a different approach has to be taken or people just won't listen. [/QUOTE}

I'm sorry, maybe my brain is frazzled, but I really don't understand this part....?
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Old April 10th, 2004, 04:00 PM
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I don't agree with breeding period. There are far to many dogs and cats out there now.Ok maybe a few to keep the breed true but thats it.
I have talked i would get a purebred Shepard. But you know what..I will probably have rescues the rest of my life. We have a lot in common rescues. Most were abused and so was I. They want a good life and hopefully I can show them how.

I'm very bothered by the H/S talking about the cats and how many have been put down. They don't care if your purebred or mutt.

The picture is shocking but also very true. I told hubby when mine go I want the bodies and will bury them myself. I couldn't stand the thought of them in a garbage dump or food for other animals. I did hear this happens with Vets that they sell the bodies for dog food places :P

We need to think of the animals and whats fair for them. Is it fair that the earth is over populated with animals and can be disguarded like yesterdays trash? I say NO!
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Old April 10th, 2004, 04:36 PM
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Thank you Chany (sweet hugs to you)


I've left space and warned about the picture, I"m sorry I should have done so to begin with. I think I was just so very angry and upset today I wasn't thinking straight, only acting from emotion.


Pls forgive me!
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