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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:27 PM
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Menadione in Medi-cal??

Ok...so in light of the Menu foods disaster I have thrown out all my wet canned food (not taking chances) even though it's not on the list. I had my 5 year old cat Kyra on Medi-cal preventive for the past year, on the vet's recommendation to prevent crystals etc...

I've been doing alot of research because I was not happy with the food, and am going to switch her to Innova Evo and try that..but she was recently sick with an infection and then had diarrhea and so that's been delayed, and now have had her on chicken and rice diet to get stools back to normal. So here is my question...I remember about a year ago hearing that menadione wasn't good...and so I read the label carefully and it was NOT listed as an ingredient. Well as I was reading them today on the canned just to see if there was wheat/gluten...I noticed manadione??

After THAT discovery I went to see if it was in the dry i've been feeding her, and it IS! :sad: I can't believe I've been feeding her that crap all this time!

I don't know if there is different types of menadione...maybe one is not bad?

Anyway I had been re-introducing some dry mixed with her chicken and rice a bit at a time...but now am wondering if I should just re-introduce it with the Evo instead...since she's been on chicken and rice anyway...or do I have to have her on what she was on (medical) and then switch her??
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:32 PM
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i dont really know but i would say just start with the Innova off the bat. that way she doesnt have to deal with changes twice and you can introduce it really slowly. might be better too as im assuming the chicken and rice diet is pretty high in protein like the Innova so an easier transition than going back to the other first.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:34 PM
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Menadione is vitamin K3. It was banned for human consumption and most of the better companies have removed it already. You want natural vitamin K, which is vitamin K1. Sorry.

Oh and you might try digestive enzymes for the switch.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:41 PM
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I'm just wondering if Evo is the way to go if she's had crystals already... From what I know, to prevent crystals, you need lower magnesium and lower ash (I could be wrong though)... Because of the high meat content in Evo, the magnesium is slightly higher and the ash is significantly higher than other foods...

Felidae, for example is 0.095% Magnesium, and 5.50% ash, while the Evo is 0.10% Magnesium (not too bad), and 9.93% ash... Regular Innova cat food has 0.10%Mg and 5.98% ash....

Anyway, I'm not sure if your vet knows what you should look for specifically to prevent crystals (a lot of the time they don't really know because they've just gotten into the habit of sending the people off with the prescription food without thinking about it...)...
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin View Post
I'm just wondering if Evo is the way to go if she's had crystals already... From what I know, to prevent crystals, you need lower magnesium and lower ash (I could be wrong though)... Because of the high meat content in Evo, the magnesium is slightly higher and the ash is significantly higher than other foods...

Felidae, for example is 0.095% Magnesium, and 5.50% ash, while the Evo is 0.10% Magnesium (not too bad), and 9.93% ash... Regular Innova cat food has 0.10%Mg and 5.98% ash....

Anyway, I'm not sure if your vet knows what you should look for specifically to prevent crystals (a lot of the time they don't really know because they've just gotten into the habit of sending the people off with the prescription food without thinking about it...)...
is 0.10%mg too high, cuz Canidae's dog food is that
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:55 PM
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lol It should be fine. It seems to be about the norm. But if you have a cat who is prone to crystals, you have to take it into consideration... I don't know what the Medi-cal prevention formula's Mg and Ash are (of course they're not on their site) though and like I said, there might be other factors, but these are the ones I've heard of...

Sass, do you have the Magnesium % written on the bag?
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:57 PM
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Thanks for your replies. I can't in good conscious keep feeding her medi-cal knowing that now so I defenitly need to make up my mind which food to switch her to. Prin I have heard that it is higher in ash and magnesium...but I have done alot of research and seem to come across the popular opinion that if the protein is high enough, then it creates a high acidic PH which would prevent them from forming.....but that's just it... opinion so not sure if it's true or not. I'd like to hear from anyone who's cat might have had crystals and is switched to Innova regular or Evo...or any other food and that has not had re-occurence I was thinking maybe on top of the Evo I could give her UTI paste which also elevates acidity in urine. Oh also Prin...I'm new to digestive enzymes....if you could elaborate more on that...thanks
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 05:59 PM
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Prin the Magnesium on preventive Medi-cal is .01% and Ash 5.5%...

Also I heard there was a new Innova low fat or something...would that have less ass/magnesium?
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:00 PM
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Digestive enzymes are more techno's domain. I've never used them..

That makes sense about the protein and the urine pH, I guess. This is from medi-cal's site:
Quote:
This diet contains restricted magnesium levels and produces a moderately acidic urine which helps reduce the likelihood of struvite urinary crystal and stone formation.
So if protein does the same thing...
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:00 PM
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Ash is not the issue here, as ash is the total mineral content of the food. Recent research also suggest that magnesium isn't even as issue providing you are producing a urine of 6.4 of less (NRC 2007) However moderate magnesium is fine, as all "suitable for urinary tract health" diets are. High meat creates an acidic urine, you just need to call the manufacturer and ask the urine Ph. It should be between 6.0-6.4
http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=2729
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sass_829 View Post
Prin the Magnesium on preventive Medi-cal is .01% and Ash 5.5%...

Also I heard there was a new Innova low fat or something...would that have less ass/magnesium?
0.01%? That's loooowwww... Oh, wait! Is it canned?

The reduced fat has lower ash (6.38%), but higher Mg (0.12%)...
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:03 PM
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What about Wysong Uretic? That's supposed to be the best of the best (so to speak) in crystal prevention. Innova is supposed to be the worst.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:11 PM
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Cool Gypsy_girl. That just says all the minerals need to be moderate... Too little Mg causes calcium oxalate crystals to form instead...


As for Wysong...

Wysong Uretic
Quote:
Ingredients: Chicken, Chicken Giblets, Ground Oat Groats, Fish Oil, Salt, Dried Whey, DL*-Methionine, Taurine, L-Lysine, Eggs, Plums, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of vitamin E), Ground Wheat, Dried Wheat Grass Powder, Dried Barley Grass Powder, Whey, Dried Yogurt, Lecithin, Citric Acid, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Dried Kelp, Garlic, Black Pepper, Artichoke, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus lactis Fermentation Product, Dried Yeast Culture, Dried Aspergillus niger Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Product, Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, lron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manga*nese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Protein*ate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.
Not a whole lot of meat in there and some pretty questionable ingredients too... Poultry fat and fish oil are both unspecified animals... Both meat sources are wet ones..

I just don't like Wysong. I don't know why they have to put wheat in everything and why they use some good ingredients (like whole eggs) and skimp out on others (wheat, unspecified animal fats).
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:13 PM
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Gypsy girl that's what I've heard..about the PH...but I have yet to come across someone with whom that has worked... I am hoping though.

Prin it was for the dry food.

And Spirit..thanks for the suggestion...I am not very hyped on the ingredients of Wysong though...it's a bit grainy for my liking...I was actually hoping to go grain free.

I am curious of what you have heard regarding Innova being the worst for crystals however...have you heard of alot of occurences with pets on that food??
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:15 PM
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I never said it was good food. I said it was good for preventing crystals. and it helps to maintain an acidic urine.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:16 PM
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i have been using the Eagle Pack digestive enzymes. heres what they say about it. might give you a better idea of what they do.




Holistic Transition™ offers a symptom-free way for dog and cat owners to transition their pet to any brand of premium pet food. This science-based supplement eliminates potential problems pets may experience when changing pet food brands.

Holistic Transition™ was built on the science-based benefits of Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes. During periods of stress, such as a change of diet, the microbial balance in the digestive tract may become upset. Probiotics (as used in Yogurt), additional friendly microbes such as B. subtillus, Aspergillus oryzae, plus Digestive Enzymes, maintain a healthy balance, so transition will be symptom-free.

The type of Probiotics used in Holistic Transition™ occurs naturally in the pet's digestive tract. They also occur in all Eagle Pack® diets. Once the 7-day transition period is complete, the normal levels of Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes included in all Eagle Pack® Holistic-All Natural diets, will maintain a healthy environment in the pet's digestive system, under normal conditions.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sass_829 View Post
I am curious of what you have heard regarding Innova being the worst for crystals however...have you heard of alot of occurences with pets on that food??
Soooooooooooo many. Being the worst is just my opinion, but I base that on how many customers of mine came back with crystal problems after switching. It might just be coincidence, but if it is, it's a pretty big one (imho).
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:19 PM
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Thanks Roland's mom for the information. Where would I get this? And what form does it come in? hehe Sorry I'm really not well informed in this subject but hope to be soon
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:25 PM
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Regarding crystals, I just found this link. An interesting read to the how's and why's.

http://www.petcaretips.net/why_bladder_stones_form.html

Wysong Uretic is specially formulated for cats who are prone to urolithiasis (stones forming in the bladder), which is why I mentioned it.

Those Eagle Pack digestive powders are great too, but I'm not sure if they'd change the PH balance of the urine and help with crystals... do they? Anyone know?
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:27 PM
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Wow Spirit really? That for sure makes me think of something different...I just know for sure that I don't want to compromise quality either....I'd ideally like a grain free, higher protein food with no questionable or 'crap' ingredients. Any other suggestions?

And has anyone had success with UTI paste?
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:44 PM
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i bought it at my local pet supply store (not pet store.) its in powder form. i normally just mix in the required dose with a teaspoon or so of yogurt in the morning.
http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/EP_WhereToBuy.html
here is their locator. probably where you can buy the food you will be able to get the digestive enzymes too.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:46 PM
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I just don't know if I'd trust a food just because the company says it's formulated for a certain condition, especially since they don't even bother to list the mineral content or anything specific to back it up.

Why don't they say what stones it helps prevent? It can't help both struvite crystals and oxalate crystals. I mean, it acidifies the urine, which means struvite, but why don't they say? I just don't like Wysong.

This the eaglepack digestive enzymes thing...
http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/HS_Transition.html
It doesn't have ingredients on there, but being that it's just digestive enzymes, there shouldn't be any mineral content.

Oh, sorry Rolandsmom!
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:48 PM
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http://www.eaglepack.com/retailer_search/searchCA.aspx
heres a list of the ottowa places
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:50 PM
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You guys are so great thanks Prin and Roland's mom! I'll for sure look for that when getting her the new food...which I'm still not sure of though anymore aaah!
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 07:56 PM
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Ok so I have been looking at Felidae..the regular cat and kitten...it looked like it had a decent number for ash, phospherous and magnesium...the ingredients don't look bad....any opinions on this?

Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat, (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Eggs, Flax Seed Meal, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Linoleic Acid, Amaranth, DL Methionine, Taurine, Kelp, Cranberries, Apples, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory Root), Dried Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Also on the website at the bottom of the analysis there is PH- and it's marked 5.5...not sure what this is?

Also do you think the protein being only at 32% would be enough?
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:00 PM
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Sorry forgot to add...I'd be feeding her canned in the morning and dry at night or dry morning/canned night to help her get more water ...here is the ingredients for the canned.

Chicken, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Chicken Liver, Herring (Source of Omega 3), Lamb, Brown Rice, Eggs, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Dicalcium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride, Guar Gum, Flax Seed Oil (Source of Omega 3) Choline Chloride, Salt, Kelp, Cranberries, Rosemary Extract, Carrageenan, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, Lecithin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydro-chlride, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:18 PM
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Felidae is good.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:31 PM
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Wysong Uretic contains Methionine which is a urinary acidifier. Not sure why it would be the best in terms of acidifying, as many of these companies produce food that creates an acidic urine
Regarding the PH being 5.5 for Felidae this is for the food, not the urine produced.
I think the vets have a monopoly on the struvite oxylate thing, and "regular" food is not allowed to be labelled as such, because it is not prescription, and I think when you have an issue according to the powers that be, you must feed presciption
Regarding whether or not changing the urine PH will work, and you have yet to see if be successful, keep in mind that even prescription diets do not "cure" this issue as it has alot of variables, it is only a preventative.
UTI pastes are fine, but so is Vit C, or straight Methionine
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:46 PM
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Thanks Prin I think I will try that and see how she likes it and does on it
And Gypsy girl I totally agree. Alot of things contribute to crystals, and I know from reading what causes them....what I was doing didn't help (At the time I was feeding one of the worst foods...high in everything! She gained alot of weight fast, she was on dry only, and didn't drink much which I know didn't help. I have since learned the error of my ways, and have been doing the best I can...and I'm not sure Medi-cal was the reason she hasn't had any more crystals since...might be or might not...but I've also heard of people who've had no success with it. I guess all we can do is try to do our best. Hopefully Felidae will provide her with all she needs (minus bad ingredients from Medi-cal) and keep the crystals at bay
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:50 PM
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that it works out.
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