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Old March 21st, 2007, 10:24 PM
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KimandAutumn KimandAutumn is offline
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Raw and high protein kibbles.......

I am currently rethinking my ideas about raw being a low protein diet because of water. I don't have a real firm stand on it just yet but I'm thinking that if you take the water out of a raw diet, it is very high protein. I'm not saying that is bad. Carnivores were meant to eat a very high protein diet. Even the fast growing giant breed dogs. One swaying factor I have thought about is the question are you lowering the percentage of protein in kibble if you feed it soaked in water? If so, very high protein kibble wouldn't matter if you fed it very wet. Is that the case? I don't know. I know it is something to think about.

Another important point is the quantity of protein, not percentage but grams/ounces. Perhaps percentage is not important. Perhaps it's the weight of the protein that matters.

Two things are be very important in my thinking. One is the difference in quality of protein from animals and plants. Animal protein is a very high quality and plant protein is very low quality even in a human diet. In kibble, how much of the protein is derived from animals and how much from plants and how does that affect what the percentages mean? Don't bother looking it up anywhere because no one knows but it sure throws a loop in the thinking about the meaning of percentages of protein in kibble. I doubt the kibble companies have any idea how much plant vs. animal protein is in kibble. I think it is important.

Do proteins act differently in the body if no carbs are present? How do animal proteins work differently than plant proteins in the body? I know they do but I don't know how. How much bioavalibility do plant proteins have?

If you take the water out of the equation, a raw diet is probably close to 80% protein. I have known many other Dane puppies to be raised on a raw diet without having any of the fast growth bone/joint problems. I have never known a raw fed Dane puppy to have confirmed Pano or HOD. I know someone will jump in and say they know one and there may be some. All I am saying is that I have never heard of one first hand.

Maybe the 22-24% protein warning for the giant breeds is way off base and shouldn't be considered. Maybe protein has no effect on bone growth. I have read studies that say it is excess calcium that causes the problems.

As you can see its a complicated process and you can also see by my rambling that I haven't made up my mind yet. What do you all think?
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Old March 21st, 2007, 10:30 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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High protein isn't the culprit in malformations during development (at least not in the studies I've seen). It's too high caloric intake and too high calcium. That being the case, you decide how much calcium the dog gets with raw by choosing how many bones you give... But you don't regulate it in a high protein diet, and unfortunately, the calcium in those is very high, too high for a growing giant breed pup.
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Old March 21st, 2007, 10:59 PM
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mummummum mummummum is offline
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Good to see you're thinking this through.

Dogs can't digest cellulose as well as we do. As such most non-meat proteins aren't useful to them. That's not to say that feeding veggies isn't a good thing, there are minerals and vitamins which are only available in veggies. If the food is eaten right away, watering the kibble doesn't denigrate the protein level, your dog will simply drink less water. And my gang sure drinks alot more on a kibble diet than they did on home-cooked/ raw !
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Old March 22nd, 2007, 06:38 AM
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technodoll technodoll is offline
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very good ramblings all sound and justified questions... the only thing i console myself with so i don't break my head is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" meaning mother nature did the math, i'm just following it ... and it works very well for my raw-fed kids. plus i don't have all the worries of contaminated petfoods, percentages, ingredients, etc... works for us
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine"

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Old March 22nd, 2007, 06:39 AM
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Scott_B Scott_B is offline
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Go have a look in the raw section about raw and protein.

The thing is, its a natural diet. Doesnt matter if the math says its high or low, its natural. Mother nature designed wolves to survive off eating other animals. And our domesticated wolves (they share 99.8% of the DNA of the Grey wolf) are designed to do the exact same. Once we start playing mother nature, thats when we start screwing things up.
Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

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Old March 22nd, 2007, 12:10 PM
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gypsy_girl gypsy_girl is offline
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If you do a conversion on a DRY MATTER basis to determine the protein of raw, based on the amont of consumption of grams/protein per day , it is not a high protein. I can PM you my calculations for this based on @ 95% meat, 75% meat and 50% meat.
In terms of bioavailablity meat protein are far superior, and so consumption can be considerably less when these proteins are used for the amino acids present.
Protein doesn't really ACT differently when carbs are not present, however the excess can be used for energy through a process called glucogenesis where the proteins are turned into glucose, and then used for energy.\
High protein is not the issue with large breeds, rather too much calcium, and too much energy in the form of calories.
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Old March 22nd, 2007, 01:47 PM
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KimandAutumn KimandAutumn is offline
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i would appreciate if you could PM your calculations. thanks so much.
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