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Old October 25th, 2006, 01:10 PM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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Exclamation Excersise enduced collapse

Hey, a very very long time ago on this forum I read something about excersise induced collapse and had mentioned that Meiko has it.

However, I have lost all my contact information for the vet I was corresponding with in the US as well as the lady up here in Northern Ontario that I was talking with.

I have more questions bout this condition as Sneaky Meiky is doing it more frequently.

Im worried bout him, and I hate when he "passes out" from playing for only 15 minutes.

Does anyone here know much about this???
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Old October 25th, 2006, 07:16 PM
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OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
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What do you mean by passing out? just tired and goes to sleep or faints?

Some dogs simply have lower exercise requirement, for example my greyhounds cannot run for 15 minutes straight, they are at tops about 3 monutes and then need a breather which usually means sleeping.



The first place to start is at the vet there could be a lot of reasons it could be an underlying heart condition, problems with blood pressure, respiratory illness, some nervous system problem, could be due to dehydration, so a good idea is also to take in a urine sample, greyhounds before racing often have bananas or other fruits added to their meals to provide extra potassium. So an advanced blood chemistry should be done. There could even be a tumor growing inside the ribcage,with one of my young foster dogs, the first signs something was wrong was his exercise intolerance later breathing problems became apparent as a tumor inside his ribcage continued to grow. There is no simple answer that can explain why your dog is acting as it is, the vet has to look at the whole dog to determine what is going on.

The other question is ...


Was this occuring before you started feeding raw, the reason I ask is some people just jump in feeding a raw diet without doing research first and there dogs may not be getting a balance diet to provide things like enough fat, or foods that provide necessary minerals. Fat is a necessary part to keep a dogs hydrated, so if your dog is only getting red raw lean meat it may not have enough fat so may need fatty cuts most feed chicken which contains the skin were much of the fat is, certain vegetable matters are necessary to provide minerals, some people provide mineral supplements or sea kelps as part of the diet to ensure their dogs are getting enough or they provide a good mix of veggies and fruit along with green tripe, bones or whole eggs including the shell for calcium to provide a complete balanced diet.

I would not just assume diet alone right now, if the diet was not complete it may have just helped to make you aware sooner of an underlying problem which is why I recommend a thorough vet exam and not try to diagnose simply on something that someone else mentioned and treat on your own , because if you guess wrong it could cost your dog it's life. There is simply too many possibilities to just narrow it down to one thing without a lot of testing first.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 08:20 PM
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Sorry OG, i totally didnt give enough info,
Meik was diagnosed at approx 2years old with EIC. It wasnt as bad as it has been lately.

I have always had to keep a close eye on him when he is excersising ( or working)
As an example of what happens;
He can be playing for about 15 minutes but then he starts panting heavily ( really heavily) if I dont stop him from playing and ignore this he will faint.
His body temperature rises dangerously high and has to be cooled off ( in the tub with cool water)
he usually only remains "passed out" for less than a minute, but as you can imagine it seems like forever to me.

As long as I stop him when his tongue is hanging unusually long ( as seen in some of his pictures) he will faint.
Each time he faints his body temperature can cause some serious damage to vital organs or his brain.
However, excersising him more ( adding a minute before " cool down") doesnt help a dog with EIC, when they are tired they are tired.
He has only actually fainted 4 times since I have had him, but when i talked to the people I purchased him from, apparently his father also did this. ( they thought it was funny ) However his daddy ended up dying ( most likely from this ~I know, shows the kind of people who were breeding these pups~)
Anyway, longish story shorter, Meik did some testing at the vet and he was diagnosed, I can not find the information I had gotten then ( 3 years ago) I have to call the vet and ask for it again.
I somehow had contacted this lady up north who has alot of experience with this conditon and she gave me numbers to this wonderful vet in the US.

He had answered many of my q's about this but now that Miek is unable to even play in his usual intervals of 20ish minutes with out showing exhaustion signs now ( for a few months) I want to learn more.
I know he is going to have to go for more tests, im fine with that. I just really want to talk to people who may have some experience with this.
Im not sure if it progresses with age ( hes a whopping 5 now, young still for a BC) and seems to be getting worse.
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Old October 26th, 2006, 08:40 PM
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OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
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Anyway I took a look online to see what info is available

Seems to be a hereditary condition noted in Labs, this article has some treatment options

http://thelabradorclub.com/library/eicstudy.html there are studies going on in Saskatoon/Sask includes an email link.


Results of Phase 1 of her study
http://www.working-retriever.com/library/taylor.html

It goes by a lot of different names Exercised Induced Hyperthermia(EIH), Exercise Induced Rhabdomyolysis and .Canine Stress Syndrome (CSS)


This is interesting and I am glad you brought up and explained as I had mostly been trying to do my searches under stress related malignant Hyperthermia for Maya and could not find much and now doing this search I am finding what I am looking for and falling under the CSS syndrome and reading these articles I know see even the connection to heat stroke/exhaustion which has landed me in the hospital a couple times, so I am know seeing a connection to my change of diet during hot weather in recent years may be playing a role in my heat intolerance, in hot weather I have been mostly eatling salads breads and do not eat much meats so the dereased amount of fat no in my diet may be part of the problem. so I found it interesting
the mention of extra fat in the diet helping with the labs , so maybe the extra fats help the them to retain fluid better therefore provide better body temperature regulation, something I read about in sled dogs but never applied to myself as far as heat exhaustion goes, Maya has been quite good for some time has not had an incident yet since being fed EVO, I had never considered that maybe the extra fat in the EVO maybe part of the reason she has not had a re-occurence, she still gets warm but her temp will come down on it's own, I had just assumed she was coping a bit better. ... interesting !!!! But than I have also tried to avoid situations where she is alone with out me or Sunny since the incident when she was at the vets, so not 100% sure but may be part of the reason , so this search now gives me extra ideas because the fear of future dentals or sugeries or even boarding her where me and Sunny cannot be with her and having it happen, Hers is related when she becomes over stressed(severe panic disorder), the only difference is it the trembling shaking that causes the overheating(hyperthermia). but if stressed too long or too much, even when taken away from the stimuli and resting her body temp continues to climb, and then as you mentioned needs to be cooled down manually using cold water, I have seen it stress type occur in another greyhound prior which had arrived in Buffalo after a transport from the track for adoption and that one collapsed shortly after being taken off the trailer and started seizing, we were very lucky at the time that we had and older experienced greyhound trainer who had volunteered to help out delivering greyhounds on this particular haul and he knew exactly what was wrong and start hollering for buckets of cold water he got the grey cooled down and seizures stopped(caused from the brain overheating) and the greyhound was then rushed to the nearest vet for examination and was lucky to have been there myself because when it happened to Maya I was able to recognize and know was to do.


THis article is about similiar symptoms in agility dogs, the first respondent to the article was having similiar problems and found using re-hydrating drinks for her dog helps but I would mot recommend using human products on a regular basis due to food colouring and sodium, there are products made just for dogs
except here with the agility dog, sled dogs they call it EIH exercise induced hyperthermia http://195.184.239.210/health/exerci...erthermia.html

in greyhounds man and horses it is often called - Exercise Induced Rhabdomyolysis
believed to be due to depletion of potassium, which is the reason greyhounds will have bananas added to the meals prior to racing also added is regular ground beef for the fat. Diets higher in fat tend to helps the dog stay hydrated better

Quote:
Canine Stress Syndrome (CSS) is a hereditary disorder characterized by sudden muscle tremors, muscle rigidity, or seizures. With a potential for being mislabeled as idiopathic epilepsy or muscle dystrophy, CSS is now recognized as a prevalent disorder in the Labrador retriever with episodes being triggered by stress stimuli including but not limited to exercise, routine handling, feeding, fasting, vaccine administration, etc.
http://www.labbies.com/css.htm

http://www.workingdogweb.com/RSH-1998-4A.htm

Most info is on labs but I did find info on cavaliers that suffer from this condition
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/episodic_falling.htm

I was really surprised that all I could find was brief mentions of BC having this condition and the occasional medical report which you have to be a member or pay to view the info, a few people that have reported their border collies having and asking for info on but no real articles on this. THe only real detailed info and research seems to be occurring in Labrador retrievers
so to get ideas on what may help you may have to follow their research.

If you want to try any supplements to see if it makes a difference maight be cheaper thru greyhound industry stores
I know electrolyte supplements can be purchased for racing greyhounds but I don't know where trainers in the US buy from. THe racing dog supplements are easier to find thru UK or Australia. If you search sled dogs sites may find someplace in North America that offers a range

Nupro makes an electrolyte solution for dogs they also have other elctrolytes only problem is they don't sell outside of the US maybe doing a search on the name of products you can find in North America
http://www.dogdecor.com/dog-health-ddnu-502.html

The first lab link mentioned the dogs affected lacked Carnitine looking at the greyhound store in australia ended up coming across it available as a supplement and available as an injection and a paste they also sell electrolytes and supplement meant to help calm greyhound prior to racing to help prevent dehydration, may be better to try it first rather than having a dog living on valiums. they also sell fatty acid supplements 6 hours before a race the greyhounds are vet inspected and urine samples taken and then put in a kennel without water and guarded to ensure no preformance enhancing drugs are used on them and only given water just before the race, some get so would up knowing they are going to race that they become dehydrated before the race which is the reason they trainers use electrolytes and calming supplements to help calm them and keep their electrolytes balance up so they don't end collapsing or fading during the race due to dehydration, and because of the drug testing they can only use products that will not trigger the drug tests which are very sensitive even some muscle rubs, antibiotics can trigger the test and the dog would be disqualified from racing so if you go thru the racing supply store the products whould be very safe to use http://www.greyhoundproductsdirect.c..._naturevet.htm
they carry several electrolytes and fatty acids which are designed to help with hydration and products to help lower excitability Which is the other component of EIC

I think this is a branch of vetproductsdirect where many people in North America order their heartworm meds from, the australian dollar is a few cents lower than the canadian $

In UK there is http://www.greyhoundmegastore.com/re...arysupplements basically double the pound = Canadian $
check the shipping on either I think UK shipping tend to be pretty high in general I did not look at there shipping info at al to even see if they will ship to canada
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Old October 26th, 2006, 08:55 PM
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pitgrrl pitgrrl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntarioGreys View Post
Nupro makes an electrolyte solution for dogs they also have other elctrolytes only problem is they don't sell outside of the US maybe doing a search on the name of products you can find in North America
http://www.dogdecor.com/dog-health-ddnu-502.html
I get Nupro from this company, which is canadian:

http://www.petacular.com/

They don't seem to carry the electrolyte formula, but they've always been incrediably helpful and willing to do all sorts of weird orders for me, so perhaps they could get it?
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Old October 26th, 2006, 10:40 PM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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Thanks for the great info OG.
I have called the vet who did the tests with Meik and we are schedueling another appt in the near future.
I am going to take a few hours to thouroughly read through the links you have posted.
I really appreciate it.

On the note of Malignant Hypothermia, that is origionally what the vets had thought meik had, but his symptoms ( although VERY close in nature) didnt match up.
As far as CSS that is what they want to look more into this time 'round.

I am going to ask about his dietary needs as well, perhaps the suppliments will help him, but this will be something that I will discuss in depth with the vet. For now... I think im gonna scrap the raw diet with him... Just to be sure "I" am not causing his exhaustion by not providing enough of something. I hope that the vet will help me out with "breaking down" a good raw diet for him.

There is few Border Collies reported with having this disorder, that is true. But while talking with the vet in the US ( who i am still hunting for his number) he said that most of the BC's that have shown signs of it are the ones out of the imp lineage ( tad larger, extreme work line, and speckled coloring *Like meiks freckles*) He did mention it being more common in Labs and Greyhounds.

Its amazing sometimes while we are trying to sort things out for our dogs how we stumble across things about ourselves that just never came to mind. I hope you do find more out about your own personal heat sensitivity.

Thanks again OG and pitgrrl for the links. After I read through the links from you OG I will post if I have any q's about something I read.
( highfive guy)
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Old January 29th, 2007, 12:14 AM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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Found some more stuff about this... most of the links provided are from the labrador test site, but still some good reads for someone who is researching this.
http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/...c;f=4;t=001654
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