Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Dog food forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 8th, 2007, 04:44 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Evo for puppies?

Ok, I always thought that large breed puppies needed a calcium level of max 1% and preferrably lower than that to grow properly, and for it to be absorbed it has to be balanced with the Phosphorus (1:1 - 2:1). Evo is wayyy high calcium. The RM has 2.31% calcium and the Evo (regular) has 2.81%...

And the dogfoodproject.com says it's not safe for large breed puppies.

So I emailed them to ask and they said sure!! It's great for puppies! And gave me a feeding chart (in excel... I'll try to attach it). It just seems like larger breeds would get a ton... But then again, the chart isn't too clear...

Any ideas?
Attached Files
File Type: doc evo to pup.doc (59.5 KB, 100 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old January 8th, 2007, 06:39 PM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
I dont have excel so i cant check it out, however, dog food analysis sais it isnt good for puppies?
So which one is it? I mean couldnt there be some damage done to growers by all the calcium? ( Im no dog food guru, but am easily getting more confused the more I learn. )
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old January 8th, 2007, 07:02 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
I converted it to word because it wouldn't let me upload excel docs...

IMO, too much calcium makes bones grow too quickly and you end up with premature arthritis among other major issues.

To me, Evo is not a puppy food. Regular, lower protein (not low, just not 42%) adult food should be given to large breed puppies, and even then the calcium levels have to be checked.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old January 8th, 2007, 07:05 PM
barkley21 barkley21 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 198
I agree, the chart isn't too clear.
__________________
Viola and the furkids
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old January 8th, 2007, 07:09 PM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
Thats just for Innova Evo, not for the RM formula or anything. However yes it is a bit vague perhaps even confusing ( but prolly just to me lol)
Strange how the rm has less calcium than the evo, and as far as i have read evo rm has not been recommended for puppies. I think it would be better if the company would state that on the bag, imo only people who truely understand dog nutrition and ingredients ( unlike me) should attempt feeding EVO to thier pups.
Been forever since i had a puppy and frankly i would be terrified to get one knowing what i know now. ( as apposed to feeding Pedigree Puppy ... thats what i had always fed, but I know better now. )
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old January 8th, 2007, 07:19 PM
rainbow's Avatar
rainbow rainbow is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beautiful BC's Kootenay Country
Posts: 34,759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin View Post
Ok, I always thought that large breed puppies needed a calcium level of max 1% and preferrably lower than that to grow properly, and for it to be absorbed it has to be balanced with the Phosphorus (1:1 - 2:1). Evo is wayyy high calcium. The RM has 2.31% calcium and the Evo (regular) has 2.81%...

And the dogfoodproject.com says it's not safe for large breed puppies.

So I emailed them to ask and they said sure!! It's great for puppies! And gave me a feeding chart (in excel... I'll try to attach it). It just seems like larger breeds would get a ton... But then again, the chart isn't too clear...

Any ideas?
I agree with you and mordanna. Natura makes Innova to those specifications as well.

I don't like that chart either. If you have a mixed breed puppy and aren't sure of what the exact adult weight would be, then how would you really know if you were feeding the right amount?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old January 8th, 2007, 07:34 PM
technodoll's Avatar
technodoll technodoll is offline
Honest Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,900
this is interesting... from http://www.labbies.com/dysplasa.htm

Quote:
What causes bone disorders?

There is no single factor that has been identified in causing any of the various bone diseases, rather, certain "risk factors" are attributed to increased occurrence of these disorders in dogs. Size is widely considered a predisposing risk factor. Dogs of large and giant breeds undergo a more rapid growth phase during their first year of development putting them at greater risk for skeletal abnormalities. Excessive calcium supplementation and rapid weight gain are also considered risk factors, however, evidence supporting a role of other nutritional factors such as high protein or carbohydrate diets is not as strong. Additionally, clinical data suggests that the role of nutrition in the development of the various skeletal diseases is more of a modulating effect. In other words, controlling for nutrition alone will not prevent these diseases, rather nutritional management may lessen the severity of disease in those dogs predisposed by other factors such as size, genetics, trauma or as of yet unknown causes.
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine"

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

:love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love:
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old January 9th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Yeah, everything I've heard agrees with that. High protein isn't a factor but high calcium is. Makes sense. You can't grow bones without calcium, that's for sure.

I doubt Innova will put anything on their bags- especially when they sent me an email saying it was fine for puppies.:sad:
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old January 9th, 2007, 04:48 AM
OntarioGreys's Avatar
OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock, ON
Posts: 1,696
I responded to this in another post but will respond here as well

Evo has similiar protein ratios as a raw diet, and TD has been feeding her Akita raw along with bones I am sure, and they are perfectly fine as large breeds despite a higher levels of calcium and protein than they would have recieved had they ate commercial puppies foods meant for large breeds

Wild canines such as wolf pups are not on restricted calcium diets in fact they probably take is more calcium then the adults, adults eat according to rank, that means the top ranking dog get choice bit such as stomach contents and meat, the pups will get the remaining meat and bones a very rich source of calcium higher than in meat, the wolf pup does not suffer not suffer from bone growth abnormalities as a result otherwise they would never survive, which suggests that the skeletal problems in domestic dogs is more related to genetics than anything else.



I have been feeding Winnie EVO RM pretty much since I got him with the breeders approval
__________________
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." - Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old January 9th, 2007, 05:40 AM
OntarioGreys's Avatar
OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock, ON
Posts: 1,696
It really is quite a nice chart


The chart basically helps to know how much to feed a puppy and it also takes into consideration the size the pup will mature to, for example a 30 lb GSD puppy at 3 months old needs more food than a 30 lb cocker puppy at 10 months old, because most of the growth of pups will occur in usually the first 3 or 4 months and slows gradually there after it provides for cutting back the amount gradually so as not to overfeed the puppy

Let us say the pup is a male was born to large heavy bone shepherd parents and should mature to a weight of 100 lbs


so until the pup reaches 40lbs ( which is 40% of his projected/estimated adult weight) you are feeding him from the first column according to his current body weight so when he is 20 lbs he should be fed 2.37 cups of food when he is 30 lbs he should be fed 3.11 cups

Once he reaches 40lbs start feeding from the second column by weight till he reaches 80 lbs (or 80% of his projected /estimated adult weight)

After 80lbs you move on to the 3rd column and feed by weight until he becomes an adult for a shepherd you probably want the feed until they are about 1 1/2, small breed can go to adult base at about a year old, a gaint breed usually is fully matured at 2 years old then you select by weight as an adult which is the feeding recommendation in the fourth row.
__________________
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." - Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old January 9th, 2007, 01:42 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
But it says "current weight" not "estimated final weight".
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old January 9th, 2007, 07:30 PM
OntarioGreys's Avatar
OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock, ON
Posts: 1,696
The very first column is current weight to row across the top represents % of full grown weight, this is how you determine how much too feed and help to acommodate the needs of smaller and larger breeds

for example a 30 lb cocker puppy who is almost matured is not going to need as much food and nutrients as a fast growing young 30lb shepherd who would mature to a 100lbs

so according to the chart the 30 lb cocker puppy who is pretty much finished growing should be fed approx 1.87 cups
where as the shepherd who is also 30lbs, but in the most critical growth period should be fed 3.11 cups
__________________
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." - Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old January 10th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
So then these numbers:
current weight...... UNTIL 40% ADULT WT
140.....................8.73

mean that a 140 pound puppy with a final weight of 350lbs would get 8.73cups of food a day?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old January 10th, 2007, 01:05 AM
OntarioGreys's Avatar
OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock, ON
Posts: 1,696
That is basically the gist, it takes that pup a lot of food energy to grow from a few ounces to 140 lbs in roughly 3 or 4 months of course that 8+ cups is spread out over 4 meals per day, that is a lot of nutrients to produce that much muscle a bone in that short a period of time, think about the human baby by the time they are 4 to 6 months are getting 4 cups of formula, plus 1/2 a cup to cup of pablum plus 1/2 cup of fruit and maybe a 1/2 cup of veggies, so roughly 6 cups a day at not even 20 lbs.
As they get closer to adulthood their needs for nutrients slows down because the muscle and bone growth is slowing down, this is why this chart is fantastic it takes the growth and development into account not just body size, it allows them to grow more evenly with muscle and bone growth occuring at the same time, when you underfeed then the body can only choose one or the other without the necessary nutrients, so either the pup looks rounded or very tall and scrawny
__________________
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." - Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old January 10th, 2007, 01:53 AM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Ok... Using their own feeding charts, I decided to compare Evo and Solid Gold Wolf Cub... Just to see... I used cups as the unit because it was the only universal unit available without emailing and I was looking more for proportions to compare with than actual gram amounts...


100lb puppy, at 40lbs (40% of final body weight)
Evo
  • 3.77 cups --> 0.107 cups of calcium --> 1.58 cups of protein --> 2024.45 kcal total

Wolf Cub
  • 4.83 cups (average of range) --> 0.072 cups of calcium --> 1.26 cups of protein --> 1811.25 kcal total

First, why is the kcal/day more than 10% lower for the Wolf Cub than the Evo? (Isn't Evo's big selling point that you're supposed to feed less than everybody else?)

Second, despite the kcals being only 10% lower for the wolf cub, the calcium is 30% lower than that of Evo, while the protein is only 20% lower than the Evo.

Even if I opt to feed my hypothetical dog more of the Wolf cub to match the kcals/day of the evo, the calcium is still only at 0.08 cups, 25% lower than the evo still.

Anyway, my point is, a lot of large breed puppy owners consider wolf cub to be too high in calcium and unsafe for very large breed puppies, and it is significantly lower in amount than the Evo. And with the links I posted Here, it becomes obvious that a 30% difference, or even 25% difference if you feel the kcals need to be the same, might be harmful to a growing large breed dog.

IMO, it's best to err on the side of caution, because we know that an excess of calcium and other nutrients necessary for bone growth causes rapid bone formation leading to skeletal malformations and disorders.

Also I've heard of other studies that show that slowing down growth rate by slightly restricting certain nutrients required for bone construction doesn't stunt growth in dogs in the long term, rather it extends the growth over a longer period of time (I have to re-find those studies... ).

Anyway, all the info out there differs, but if I ever get a large breed puppy, I'll definitely be watching the Ca levels closely (among other things) until I see substantial research that says it doesn't matter.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old January 10th, 2007, 10:09 AM
technodoll's Avatar
technodoll technodoll is offline
Honest Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,900
i think that if you merge the other thread on calcium levels & proteins, absorption, etc - it all makes sense... you can't compare a grain kibble vs a grain-free kibble since the nutrients come from different sources (grain protein vs meat protein), and are therefore not aborbed by the body in the same way...

my goodness. it's sooo difficult isn't it? dang kibble makers... giving us headaches... grumble grumble
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine"

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

:love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love:
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old January 10th, 2007, 05:19 PM
OntarioGreys's Avatar
OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock, ON
Posts: 1,696
Your own links state protein requirements decrease with age

And I am done hashing out calcium for now, as you said there is not enough info on, all I can do is point out models such as dogs fed raw and wild canines and state my personal opinions on, much like I did when I first joined the forum and argued with you that EVO was safe to feed that the high protein levels would not hurt adults dogs because it was based on "meat" protein not grains, is was not till later when proof finally came out was I able to post links to support my views. Maybe next year or the year after I will be able to do the same with the calcium issue so bypassing that issue......

a 10 month old 140 lb puppy who has almost reach full bone growth is not going to require as much nutrients/protein as the 140 lb 3 or 4 month old that is growing bigger by the day. and WK does not differiate between the two so what happens when you feed both the same? you may have a very chubby 10 month old and one very scrawny underweight malnourished 4 month old feeding who is fed the same amount, the the nutrients are being used at an alarming pace because development is so fast, with Nikki I notice a more eveness in growth but with the larger breeds there was shoot up period get very boney and then bone growth would slow done and weight would try to catch up,since the nutrient their recieving is not enough to perform both functions at the same time, which may what causes the muscular-skeletal problems later in life, it may also play a role as to why bigger breeds mature mentally slower, maybe they are simply not getting the nutrients for the mental development so it becomes stalled till then growth slows down, maybe not enough nutrients, I am not saying they are not learning but a small breed act more like an adult at 1 whereas the larger breeds maintain the puppy mentally about twice as long

pups are not born so much in proportion to the size of the mom, smaller breeds have less puppies inorder to accomodate the size of the pups so the great dane puppy start off life pretty close to the same size as the cocker puppy,there is a bit of difference but not in proportion adult size. but the great dane pup has to do a lot more growing than the cocker puppy so it's nutrient/protein needs are going to be greater since it has to do 5 or 6 times the growing that the other the cocker does over almost the same period of time.
__________________
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." - Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old January 10th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
I'm still not 100% convinced that Evo is safe for adults even. But then how safe is any diet, even a human one? You know? You'll never know what the effects of what you do today are till tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old January 10th, 2007, 05:31 PM
Scott_B's Avatar
Scott_B Scott_B is offline
Rosco, Raw Fed & LOVES IT
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,268
Thats one thing I figure as well. Diet for humans has gone to $hits. Of course we know whats best for us, but yet we all eat crap food. Its all about convience. Same reason dog food is what it is today. Its convienent. He'll, they're doing the same thing with pre-packaged raw diets. Its all about fast food and convience.
__________________
Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

-J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old January 10th, 2007, 05:35 PM
technodoll's Avatar
technodoll technodoll is offline
Honest Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,900
hey i love my canned soup and stouffer's frozen dinners! but yeah... life in the fast lane has become a fact of life, sadly. if i had the time to bake my own bread...
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine"

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

:love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love:
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old January 10th, 2007, 07:55 PM
muckypup's Avatar
muckypup muckypup is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: King City
Posts: 145
They said it (EVO) was "great for Lrg breed puppies?"
In their FAQs section on the website it say's no. http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=faq-detail&pxsl=//faq%5B@id='13'%5D
__________________
3 GSDs, shelter rescues Magic & Bobbie, HIC, BH, TR2, OB3
& Garak v. Heksterhorst, HIC
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old January 10th, 2007, 08:43 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
omg you're right!

Quote:
No. We would not recommend feeding the Innova Evo to a large/giant breed puppy. There are specific products (e.g., Innova Large Breed Puppy) which are intentionally designed for the proper nutritional support of growing puppies with projected mature weights in excess of 60 lbs. EVO was not designed for this purpose. For the large breed puppy the growth rate must be optimized not maximized, and the mineral balance must be tightly controlled to support skeletal growth. The most effective way in which to control these factors is through the judicious use of high quality carbohydrates.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old January 10th, 2007, 10:10 PM
technodoll's Avatar
technodoll technodoll is offline
Honest Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,900
petfood companies crack me up

Quote:
For the large breed puppy the growth rate must be optimized not maximized, and the mineral balance must be tightly controlled to support skeletal growth.
"tightly controlled"... i can see all the wild carnivores bringing their food catches to the lab every day for analysis

Quote:
The most effective way in which to control these factors is through the judicious use of high quality carbohydrates
er, NO. you need high quality meats, bones and organs, preferably in their natural state, ie not processed to death. OK OK... I do love to poke fun at petfood companies but hey! they started it!
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine"

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

:love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love:
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old January 10th, 2007, 10:15 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
No, IMO, if they're smart, they mean that they buffer the meats with carbs to prevent rapid growth.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old January 10th, 2007, 10:33 PM
technodoll's Avatar
technodoll technodoll is offline
Honest Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 5,900
since i honestly don't understand these high-tech recipes... so head-breaking complimicated... i can poke fun at them, right?
__________________
"Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine"

Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints.

:love: ~Akitas Are Love~ :love:
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old January 11th, 2007, 05:58 AM
Scott_B's Avatar
Scott_B Scott_B is offline
Rosco, Raw Fed & LOVES IT
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,268
IMO, it makes sense for dog food to be taylored for different ages. The fact that it is kibble and we have designed it and its nutritional content then it makes sense. Science says you need A B C for an adult dog and D E F for a growing pup. Once again, it goes back to you really can't compare raw & kibble, science vs mother nature. They each have their own ways of doing things
__________________
Please please please give Maggie the steak! Its not too big for her little mouth!

Their impression of power is remarkable. They give one the feeling of immense reserves of energy, of great reservoirs of knowledge, of tolerance of disposition, obstinacy of purpose, and tenacity of principle. They are responsive, and they have a lot of quiet, good sense.

-J. Wentworth Day, from The Dog in Sport, 1938
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:04 AM.