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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:35 PM
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need help figuring this out!

ok, so I'm really getting discouraged. I've had Buster for a year and a half, and we've never found a food that suits him. The only food he did well on was Nutram Lamb and Rice, which has ALOT of corn, and made him a little itchy. All the other foods we've tried have either caused explosive diarhea or MASSIVE MASSIVE LARGE poops.

I know there's something in these foods he can't digest. I can't feed RAW (see thread http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=30947)

Here are the foods we've tried :

EAGLE PACK :

Holistic Select® Anchovy, Sardine & Salmon Meal w/Oatmeal Formula

Anchovy, Sardine & Salmon Meals (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Oatmeal, Ground Brown Rice, Pearled Barley, Menhaden Oil (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Sun-Cured Alfalfa Meal, Air Dried Peas, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Dried Carrots, Dried Apples, Inulin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Dandelion (Organic), Garlic Powder, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes (sequestered) of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus lichenformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae and Aspergillus niger.

Holistic Select® Chicken Meal & Rice Formula

Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Anchovy & Sardine Meal, Pork Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Whole Ground Barley, Tomato Pomace, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Canola Oil, Dried Apples, Cheese Meal, Dried Carrots, Air Dried Peas, Sun-cured Alfalfa, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Quinoa (Organic), Inulin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Dried Cranberries, Dried Blueberries, Beta-Carotene, Dandelion (Organic), Garlic, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes (sequestered) of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus lichenformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae and Aspergillus niger.


WELLNESS :

Super5Mix® Chicken

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Rice Bran (from brown rice), Rye Flour, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Whitefish, Tomatoes (natural source of lycopene), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flaxseed, Ground Millet, Carrots, Apples, Spinach, Blueberries, Sweet Potatoes, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride

Super5Mix® Lamb

Lamb, Menhaden Fish Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Rice Bran (from brown rice), Rye Flour, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of vitamin E), Salmon Meal, Tomatoes (natural source of lycopene), Ground Millet, Natural Lamb Flavor, Carrots, Apples, Spinach, Blueberries, Sweet Potatoes, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate.


SOLID GOLD :

WolfKing Adult Dog (bison)
Bison | Salmon Meal | Brown Rice | Millet | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran | Canola Oil | Flaxseed Oil | Garlic | Amaranth | Blueberries | Yucca Schidigera Extract | Carotene | Choline Chloride | Vitamin E Supplement | Iron Proteinate | Zinc Proteinate | Copper Proteinate | Manganese Proteinate | Potassium Iodide | Thiamine Mononitrate | Ascorbic Acid | Vitamin A Supplement | Biotin | Calcium Panthothenate | Selenomethionine | Pyridoxine Hydrochloride | Vitamin B12 Supplement | Riboflavin | Vitamin D Supplement | Folic Acid |

and now INNOVA EVO :

Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, Natural flavors, Egg, Garlic, Apples ,Carrots, Tomatoes, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamins/Minerals, Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms


All these have been fed for AT LEAST a month (usually around 2 months). Buster's been on EVO for a few weeks, I've just reduced his portions to 1 cup and a half (he's been on that portion for 3 days), and no improvements. EVO seems to be least bad of all these foods...but still -- it's not normal.

What am I missing? What's the common ingredient in these foods? I already know he has an intolerance for corn (it makes him itchy....even just a little bit of corn....) Maybe chicken?
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  #2  
Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:43 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Barley and then chicken.

What about Evo RM? Have you tried that?
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:47 PM
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I asked the store owner to order it...it may take a while to get here though Maybe I'll check in town....
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:47 PM
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digestive enzymes & probiotics at every meal...

try evo rm? or nature's variety raw instinct? don't overfeed... also add a bit of fat-free yogurt to the food...

has buster been cleared for IBD?... it's just not normal... poor sweetie.
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meb999 View Post
I asked the store owner to order it...it may take a while to get here though Maybe I'll check in town....
Where are you? Woofers can get it pretty fast. Or I can even lend you some.
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:51 PM
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yeah, he's been cleared for Irritable bowel...
I had a whole panel of tests done, and the vet said it's food-related. She wants him on science-diet something

I've given him yogourt before, but didn't notice a difference. Maybe I'll go to the health food store and pick up some probiotics...
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Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:52 PM
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I'm on the south shore....Club K-9 is pretty close to my school though, and I think they have the RM.
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:53 PM
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Not sure. Little Bear might be more likely. Call ahead though...
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:00 PM
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dakotah had a rough first 2 years with a sensitive tummy... even now and then he still has "issues"... i've found that digestive enzymes (2 capsules before the meal) and probiotics (2 capsules after the meal) works wonders for our boy... perhaps that, coupled with a food he can tolerate, would do the trick? you can find both at your local pharmacie
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:08 PM
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do you mind giving me the brand you use?
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:12 PM
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I use Udo's choice anti-yeast probiotics... They have all the usual ones, plus extra ones for yeast.
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:19 PM
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i get the Jamieson Digestive Enzymes (look for protease (digests protein), lipase (digests fat), and amylase (digests carbohydrates).

I don't remember the probiotics brand... just ask the pharmacist, or you can also get them in any health-food store but they're much more expensive there. you need to store those in the fridge, as they're quite sensitive to heat and light
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 09:39 PM
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I haven't been feeding RAW as long as Techno and I'm not a real expert but I thought I'd share my thoughts anyways =)

I looked back at your post when you tried RAW and saw that you gave Buster a chicken leg and he couldn't handle it - - when I first switched my dogs my male had really runny poops (I also fed chicken with bone in, skin on). It happened that both of them went back on kibble for 2 days because I was gone away - when I got back I fed him ONLY boneless, skinless chicken breast for a few days. Then we tried some ground beef - no bone for a couple of days and a few more days of boneless, skinless chicken breast.

So that was about a week - then I went to chicken quarters and he's been fine ever since (about 4 weeks now) And they've tried many kinds of meat without any problems.

Also, my female lab was really lethargic for the first couple of days and she's usually REALLY crazy. I was sort of worried but I had read that could be expected. And it passed - we just went easy on the exercise for a couple of days and she just mostly slept. Within 2-3 days she was back to normal .... crazy!

So maybe if you went REALLY slow you could get Buster there - - just a thought =)
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Old October 24th, 2006, 01:42 PM
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thanks Les, but I got a little freaked out last time I tried RAW. I'm not quite up to trying it again. It took like 5 days for him to return to normal.

He wasn't just a little lethargic....I had to carry him to bed, he didn't even want to stand up. the only time he stood was to beg for the door, the he'd poo outside, take a few steps and lie down in the grass...

It was awfull :sad:
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Old October 24th, 2006, 01:54 PM
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Yeah that sounds really scary. If you ever do decide to try again, I'd try just the meat first for awhile =)

As for kibble ... did you ever try the Canidea? I had my guys on it for awhile and it was actually the one with the best results. (minus the never ending ear infections my lab gets - but she gets them on ALL kibble!!) We also tried the regular innova which was good too. My male had good poops on both of those foods and he's the super sentitive tummy type!

Why is it so tough to find a food??
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Old October 25th, 2006, 08:57 PM
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well, the store took back the big bag of EVO (thank goodness!!) and I bought a small bag of Natural Balance Venison and brown rice. It's very rice-y, but it has no chicken and no barley. I'm buying pro-biotics tomorow
If DVP Venison and Rice works out, maybe i'll add a little EVO RM to up the protein a bit....
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old October 25th, 2006, 09:06 PM
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I wudda just gone for the Evo RM directly...

When I'm done the bag of DVP (fish), I'm not buying another one. It's ok food, but the protein is really low, and there isn't enough fish to keep the dandruffs away, and it's really expensive, so I'd rather just spend that cash on salmon oil instead.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 09:20 PM
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actually I felt kinda bad returning a huge bag of food (that I've been feeding for like 2 weeks) without buying something in return. Plus I want to get Buster on a single protein source for a few days to settle his tummy...
Oh! And I'm lazy!! I didn't want to drive all the way into town for RM, (I'm off school this week) I figured I'd just drop by the store near my school when i go back next week
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old October 25th, 2006, 09:24 PM
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Good luck.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 09:35 PM
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I dig... I returned like 80 bucks of wolf king... So I bought 3 random small bags.. I felt bad.. And now she is likely allergic to something in the dvp ultra or something in the NV chicken.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 11:53 PM
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Marie-Eve, I'd hate to be your petfood storeowner!

But I mostly think poor Buster! It saddens me that you haven't been able to find a food that agrees with him. I was surprised to read that you had interesting results with the Nutram. I really hope it works out with the DVP but if it doesn't, you might want to consider Nutram's (note: I do not own shares in the company or the distributor) sensitive stomach (lamb and no corn) formula or the rumoured soon-to-be-available new formula (duck? I don't have the details but two knowledgeable people have talked to me about this; best would be to email Nutram directly). I know it's not the 'best' brand out there but it might be a good fit with Buster; a few cats I know do as well on Techni-Cal as on Holistic Blend or Solid Gold even though they can't handle very well Chicken Soup or DVP or even Wellness.

I'm lucky my dog can eat anything but I feel for you and Buster. Can't wait to see the day when I find out you've found a food that works for him. Good luck!
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Old October 26th, 2006, 12:00 AM
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hmm.. I looked at the ingredients, and I think the Canidae Lamb and rice is better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutram Sensitive stomach
Lamb meal, ground rice, rice flour, ground barley, flaxseed, chicken fat (preserved with Vitamin E), pea fiber, natural flavors, dried whole egg, salt, potassium chloride, kelp meal, bacterial cultures (Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Enterococcus faecium), mannanoligosaccharides, choline chloride, chicory root extract (a source of FOS), Vitamin C, yucca schigidera, marigold extract (a source of lutein), Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Vitamin K (menadione), Vitamin B12, riboflavin, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, biotin, ferrous sulphate, iron proteinate, manganous oxide, manganese proteinate, zinc sulphate, zinc proteinate, copper sulphate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, beta carotene, cobalt proteinate, sodium selenite.
http://www.nutram.com/petfood/_n_/sensitive.aspx
You'd have to find out what they use for vitamin C too, whether it's ascorbic acid or citric acid. Also, barley was in a lot of the foods above, so I'd avoid that in any foods you try.

Oh and it has menadione too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canidae lamb and rice
Lamb Meal, Brown Rice, Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Flax Seed, Sun cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Lamb, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory Root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, L-Lysine, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of Vitamin B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Organic Selenium, Dried Papaya, Dried Pineapple, Vitamin B12 Supplement.
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/lamb-and-rice/dry.html

With the Canidae, the Lamb is still #1.
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Old October 26th, 2006, 12:01 AM
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*edit*
Beat me to it I was highlighting ingredients as you posted, haha.
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Old October 26th, 2006, 12:07 AM
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heh heh
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Old October 26th, 2006, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Marie-Eve, I'd hate to be your petfood storeowner!
Oh! I only returned that one bag of EVO. Every other food I waited at least until the bag was empty before changing (wnated to give each food a minimum of 1 month trial). So don't feel tooooo bad for my petfood store

Quote:
But I mostly think poor Buster! It saddens me that you haven't been able to find a food that agrees with him. I was surprised to read that you had interesting results with the Nutram. I really hope it works out with the DVP but if it doesn't, you might want to consider Nutram's (note: I do not own shares in the company or the distributor) sensitive stomach (lamb and no corn) formula or the rumoured soon-to-be-available new formula (duck? I don't have the details but two knowledgeable people have talked to me about this; best would be to email Nutram directly). I know it's not the 'best' brand out there but it might be a good fit with Buster; a few cats I know do as well on Techni-Cal as on Holistic Blend or Solid Gold even though they can't handle very well Chicken Soup or DVP or even Wellness.
The thing with Nutram is that although Buster did very well on it the first few months, after a while his fur started getting dull and he started getting itchy. I always assumed it was the corn (because I know corn is probably the most allergenic ingredient in the Lamb and Rice), but maybe it was the barley?

Even though the poops have been bad with all the food posted above, I must admit that his coat is BE-A-UTIFULL....
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:52 PM
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ok, so DVP Venison and rice is also off the list of possible foods. But, to be fair I've only fed it for a week.....But the bag is empty, and seeing as how Buster is still doing poorly (and has now taken to chewing his paws.....not sure if it's the food or not, but it started the day after the switch and he's been doing it all week ) I'm not buying another.

Natural Balance® Venison & Brown Rice Dry Dog Food
Venison, Whole Grain Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Venison Meal, Rice Bran, Canola Oil (preserved With Mixed Tocopherols And Citric Acid), Natural Flavor, Flaxseed Oil, Kelp Meal, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Chloride, Choline Chloride, L-lysine, Dl-methionine, Dicalcium Phosphate, Dried Parsley, Rosemary Extract, Ascorbic Acid (vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin K1 Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B-9).

I found a store on the south shore that sells the EVO RM (is 75$ plus taxe a rip off?) and I bought the big bag. I'm giving it a month....if THIS doesn't work I'm completely at a loss
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

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Old November 2nd, 2006, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
I found a store on the south shore that sells the EVO RM (is 75$ plus taxe a rip off?)
it's a bit on the high side... i negociated mine down to $72

i really REALLY suggest you get a broad-spectrum digestive enzyme to your boy, 1 capsule with water before each meal. you'd be amazed at the difference it can make in the digestibility of the kibble meals... see this thread for more info: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=32338

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Old November 2nd, 2006, 06:29 PM
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Hi Meb999,
Sorry to hear that you and Buster are having so many issues trying to find a food that agrees with him...I for one know exactly how frustrated you feel
We have a 6.5 month old pup and up until 1.5 months ago, we were at a loss too. He had consistently loose stools from the second day we had him. He was switched onto the Medi-Cal fibre formula by our vet to firm up the stools. So, that cleared up and we ventured to switch him back onto the puppy food. Loose stools again immediately and he was diagnosed with colitis shortly thereafter. Back on the Medi-Cal he went, plus a round of antibiotics. Once things cleared up, we went to try a different food as we didn't intend to keep him on the Medi-Cal any longer than we had to (not very nutritious food). We tried the DVP Duck and Potato. Poops were okay on the most part but he got a urinary tract infection with struvite crystals in it. Off the DVP and back on the Medi-Cal and yet more antibiotics for the UTI. Once it cleared up, we tried switching him to Solid Gold Wolf Cub. Poops were so-so but UTI came back. Our vet was at a loss as to what was causing all of this . Also, to make matters worse, he was constantly itchy (scratching and biting himself), and his ears were getting infected and always had brown discharge that smelled awful. Our vet wanted to put Barkley on the Medi-Cal anti-crystal kibble and see how it goes. Once I read the ingredient list, I cried. Enough was enough. We asked our vet about feeding raw. He said he strongly objected and basically said we'd kill our dog. I found this odd because in my mind I wondered how natural, nutritious, raw food could be bad for them, yet processed kibble was supposed to be good for them? We found a holistic vet for a second opinion. He on the other hand wasn't at a loss about what was going on and diagnosed Barkley within five minutes of hearing his history. He had dysbiosis...basically he didn't have enough of the good bacteria in the tummy to process and digest food properly and he had too much of the bad bacteria running amuck in there. He loved the idea of raw and set us up with a diet plan and a good quality probiotic to make the tummy environment more healthy. We literally saw a change the very next day. He didn't have so much as one loose stool, the itching stopped and within one week the ears cleared right up. I used to clean them every 3 days and now I haven't cleaned them in about a month because they are so spotless! I read that dogs can experience different degrees of detox when switching to raw, but Barkley's never got more serious than vomiting a couple of times (we tried lamb at the time and he doesn't seem to do well on it). Are you sure Buster isn't just going through a more severe case of detox? I read that the longer that a dog has been on kibble, the longer or more intense the detox process can be. Are you sure you don't want to give raw another chance? I know how hard it is to watch your dog suffer, but what if it's worth it in the end and he ends up doing fantastic on it??? Maybe give it one week as opposed to just the one day and see how it goes and start with just ground meat, no bones, like the others have suggested I wouldn't be such a raw advocate if I didn't see the changes in Barkley with my very own eyes. He really and truly is like a different dog. Did I mention that when he switched to raw the UTI and crystals cleared up on their own without any medication??
I know not every dog is the same and that different diets work for different dogs, so I'm not saying your dog will 100% for sure do well on raw, but his symptoms sound similar to Barkley's although his detox symptoms are quite severe. What ever you choose, I really hope you and Buster feel better and that you find something that works. Those few months with Barkley were really bad and I feel horrible that you've had to go through it for a year and a half already :sad:
Keep us posted
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  #29  
Old November 2nd, 2006, 07:30 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Originally Posted by meb999 View Post
I found a store on the south shore that sells the EVO RM (is 75$ plus taxe a rip off?) and I bought the big bag. I'm giving it a month....if THIS doesn't work I'm completely at a loss
It's a rip off in general, but that's how much it costs in Qc. Good luck!


It could be the canola oil too maybe... Chicken, barley, canola oil.
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  #30  
Old November 5th, 2006, 09:27 PM
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meb999 meb999 is offline
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well another item is off the 'feedable' list : chicken wings
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