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Old September 22nd, 2006, 06:20 PM
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Raw and dysphoria

ok, so with the SG controversy and everything, I decided to try RAW again. I've tried it twice before with pretty disasterous results. But I've been reading alot and I joined 2 raw feeder forums.

So I fasted Buster for 24 hours. Then last night I gave him a single chicken leg (it was pretty small...and he's 55 pounds). I thought I'd start him off slow to avoid explosive butt like the last times I've tried.

I also removed all the skin.

So last night (a few hours after his meal) the crazy diarhea started. That's to be expected right? But what bothers me is he's REALLY dysphoric today. He's been lying down all day (remember, this is a boxer....they're not a lazy breed!) To the point where I took him to the vets a few hours ago.

She told me that it's the raw food, and she doesn't understand why I would risk my dogs life (????)
I offered him some cooked rice for supper, and he won't even touch it (he usually looooooves rice....it's his favorite food ever!)

I can't stand to see him like this, just looking at him makes me want to cry. Is this going to pass??
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 06:34 PM
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I donít have any advice but I really hope that it will pass and that your dog will be ok.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 07:06 PM
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thanks! I hope so too
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 07:12 PM
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yes, it will pass and you did everything right, please don't beat yourself up over it. don't let an ignorant vet make you feel guilty for trying to give your boy the best! grrr.

in some rare cases, raw food just doesn't agree with a dog's tummy you can give buster an Imodium tablet to help dry up the diarrhea, and then proceed with caution... a grainless kibble, supplemented with cooked rice, cooked meats, etc is maybe the best solution for your boy?

i'm so sorry this happened, you tried your best and that's what matters! now go give that beautiful boy a big hug for me kay?
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 07:42 PM
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Have you ever heard of a dog getting really disphoric on raw, Techno?

The vet wanted me to put him on some Science diet sensitive something or other. No thanks. I guess raw is outta the question, or should I feed him meat again tomorow? One of the raw websites says to continue with the diet, and that all side effects will eventually subside (is his moppiness a side effect?)....I don't really see myself continuing something that's making him act so weird.

I just picked up his leash (which is usually followed by an extensive wiggle-butt-yelping dance) and he had absolutely no reaction. I feel horrible.
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 08:53 PM
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i have read about this happening to some dogs but it's rare that the reaction is so bad... poor buster i know you must feel terrible but how could you have known?... i personally would find it very hard to continue with raw, if i had to see my dog going through this... i'm so sorry. there is no one diet that is perfect for every dog and my gut feeling says such a violent reaction to raw (3 times) is an indication that it may not be for buster.

OR you might want to wait until he is better, and then inch your way towards raw gently... such as 1/2 cup of fresh, lean raw ground beef for breakfast with some digestive enzymes, and then see what happens... try raw with no bone at first, and a different protein source. perhaps that would work.

and i hope your boy is his perky self tomorrow!
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 09:48 PM
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I think the reaction is too bad to continue.

On the upside, my super-ultra-hyper-sensitive Boo who took 4 months to get used to WK, already has firm stools on the Evo after starting him "cold turkey". I dunno. Jemma's a bit more soft, but still- they're doing better on the evo so far than they were doing on the "hardly" changed SG formula.

I hope Buster gets better soon...
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 09:51 PM
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(mini hijack)

grainless kibbles rock. so much easier for the dogs to digest..

maybe it would be good for buster too?
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 09:53 PM
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I think it would be. It can constipate some dogs, but with dogs with pretty consistently soft stools, it might be just what the vet ordered (but didn't know it).
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:01 PM
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yeah, Evo is next on my list (once Buster gets better)
I had figured that for the same price as feeding Evo, I could feed raw...

Poor Buster, he's all droopy. He only gets up to go beg for the door....

I think I'll make him some chicken broth, I'm worried he'll dehydrate with all the pooping!!

Quote:
On the upside, my super-ultra-hyper-sensitive Boo who took 4 months to get used to WK, already has firm stools on the Evo after starting him "cold turkey".
WOW!! That's great. I'm glad the switch went well!
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
it might be just what the vet ordered (but didn't know it).
Unless you're my emergency vet, then delicious Science diet is what the vet ordered
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:06 PM
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meb999, are you familiar with this boxer-specific forum? i follow their forum on raw-feeding... lots of great folks and great info on there! just in case you might still consider it in the future, perhaps other boxer owners could guide you...

http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5

:love: to buster who will be slurping on chicken broth with rice soon! i hope!
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:10 PM
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meb999 meb999 is offline
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yeah I'm a member there...but i don't post much. I'm mostly a lurker
I love their feeding forum and their BARF forum. Very informative!
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."

Last edited by meb999; September 22nd, 2006 at 10:15 PM.
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  #14  
Old September 22nd, 2006, 10:56 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meb999
Unless you're my emergency vet, then delicious Science diet is what the vet ordered
lol of course! But when they say "science diet" they really mean "Evo".
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 09:36 AM
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Why not try a cooked homemade diet? I donít know how good is that but at least this way you will know exactly what your dog eats.

The recipe is: meat, brown rice, little bit of veggies and the supplements.


Again, Iím not an expert, I am just learning myself buy my family kept dogs on this type of diet for many years and we never had any health problems with them.
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Old September 23rd, 2006, 01:28 PM
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Buster is feeling a little better today. He ate some rice and some broth, and didn't puke any of it up. YAY!!

I,m going to keep him a bland diet for the next week or so, to give his stomach a break (only boiled chicken and rice --- i just made him a big batch) then I'll decide what the next step is. Probably Evo, or Evo mixed with Canidae.....
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Marie-Eve and Buster (5 year old-ish rescued Boxer)

Deep thought, by Jack Handey : "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me."
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Old September 24th, 2006, 10:10 AM
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OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
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I do not feed raw but do read some discussions about starting a raw diet on different forums

Did you use digestive enzymes and probiotics ?

I know a least one raw feeder who says you should use digestive enzymes/ probiotics when you start raw, she said that for a dog that has been fed kibble for a while they lose some of the enymes needed to digest the raw, and that is what causes the diarrhea and vomitting.


In the wild when a dog catches wild game they would first rip open the stomach and eat some of the stomach/intestine content this provides them with digestive enzymes to help digest the meat. You can do similiar by giving some green tripe first.

Quote:
What are digestive enzymes and probiotics , and why is their use recommended?

Digestive enzymes break down food so that it can be absorbed and utilized by the body. Raw food has enzymatic activity, and the body has a limited supply also. When our pets eat the raw food that their physiology is designed to thrive on, they receive plenty of food enzymes, which aid digestion and nutrient utilization. When they eat cooked food, which is devoid of enzymes, they can deplete the body's supply, and the enzyme-producing organs must work overtime to compensate. It doesn't matter what you put into the body if digestion is not equipped with enough enzymes to break it down and put it to good use within the body. Supplemental enzymes can be beneficial in cases of digestive disorders and degenerative diseases. They replenish the body with the tools needed to utilize nutrients.


Probiotics are beneficial bacteria. They are normally present in a healthy intestinal system. Beneficial bacteria keep unwanted bacteria, fungi, and other bad guys from disrupting homeostasis. For example, U.A.S. labs have conducted studies showing non-dairy probiotics to be extremely successful at destroying e.coli bacteria.
Just as a further note there are on the market dietary enzymes and digestive available, you need the digestive type.

Here is a transition diet that is designed to make sure digestive enyzmes are in place before raw meat is introduced to the diet
http://www.raw-connections.com/index.html
Quote:
Transition for Dogs
Each Pet is Unique
Each pet is unique. But we have found that with this method we can help prevent problems such as upset stomach, diarrhea or constipation. Please follow instructions before feeding a pet raw meat and bones.



These instructions are for adult dogs. If they are puppies, lactating or pregnant please contact us for special instructions.

Eat Your Greens
Two full days of blenderized salad, mostly leafy greens. I prefer it to be Romaine lettuce. You can add a little green beans, any colored peppers, broccoli, spinach, asparagus, basically any greens that you would eat. Do not add anything from the cabbage family daily.



Make sure you blend or puree the salad stuff. If you want it pasty, cook sweet potatoes and mix it with the RAW greens. Add as little as possible to get the dog to eat the salad. Do not add yogurt, meat or grains as you are trying to establish the good type of bacteria in the intestines and encourage a good production of acids on the 3rd day.

Probiotics
Probiotics and digestive enzymes are suggested to speed up the good type of bacteria to establish itself in the intestines. Keep adding the probiotics and digestive enzymes for about two weeks, depending on the pet.



These are available at health food stores. The probiotics should be the non-dairy kind. On the third day the prepared meal is introduced; continue to add some the salad mix for the first two weeks.
Meaty Bones
Introduce meaty bones weekly for the meaty bone day, under supervision ; about 2 weeks after you start. This ensures bone breakdown and safety. Watch your dog does not gulp his meaty bones. This is especially important with wings and Turkey necks. We suggest you cut the tendon in the wings to prevent them springing open (gulp!) in the throat when starting to feed chicken wings. If necessary, start by holding the bone to make sure your pet chews it, or smash the bones with a hammer or meat tenderizing hammer. The first time you could feed a stripped down chicken carcass so he can not gulp and takes the time to chew his bones.

Man the Poop Deck!


The only way to tell if youíre feeding properly is a poop watch. If itís too soft, add more meaty bone ; if itís too dry, add more greens or cold pressed oil. It should have very little odour. If not, return to probiotics and digestive enzymes.

A balanced diet will be acquired over a time frame, lots of variety in a month assists in attaining a balance. We recommend absolutely no kibble! Adding this will cause difficulties.

Watch it!
If the animal has health concerns, please be wise and do the transition with the assistance of a vet.

We strongly suggest doing health research or investing in a good natural-approach book for information on a balanced diet for your pet. The Ultimate Diet by Kymythy Schultz is the one we recommend as it is easy for beginners to follow.

Donít Fast Puppies or Moms!
Do not fast puppies and pregnant or lactating bitches.



Grains: Not for Dogs
We recommend that you donít feed any grains. If youíre feeding grain please feed the raw meaty meal at least six hours before feeding grains, this allows the raw meal to digest before the grains. This can still cause problems as the dog does not produce amylase to digest starches and encourages the bad type of bacteria to multiply.
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