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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:02 PM
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puppy mill foster

Hi all,I need opinions on my new foster.I picked up Wendy 3 weeks ago,female golden,5 yr old from a puppy mill.Never (or barely) had human contact.She is EXTREMELY sweet and submissive.But is sooo afraid of people.I hand fed her for 2 weeks and she has been ok with me since.I can't believe all the progress she made.But only with me.With new people,she is very scared.My mom came for 3 days and Wendy only went to her after 2 days and very briefly.She has already been adopted by people with very good references (already adopted twice from us) it's a family,3 kids,youngest is 10.The kids have experience with dogs and know that they will have to be very calm and patient with her.The family is waiting for me to tell them when Wendy will be ready to leave for their place.I'm afraid if I keep her longer,she will become attach to me and have a hard time beginning at a new place.In my mind,I wanted to have her longer,but I maybe wrong?Do you think the sooner the better for her to be with her new family?Her favorite place is the kitchen because of the islet (is that the wright word?) she keeps behind it.She does now come to the solarium but doesn't stay in the living room with us.It's going to be the hardest for me to let her go,I'M already worried on how she will react at her new place....
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:17 PM
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Does her future family live nearby? Would it be possible for them to gradually let her become familiar with them so that it won't be so traumatic for her when she actually relocates to their home? Maybe they could come visit with her a few times. The kids could maybe take her for a walk individually? I'm thinking so she won't just all of a sudden be among strangers?
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:41 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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To put a dog like this into a household with 3 young children is a very bad idea, IMO.

Children naturally want to be with, play with and pet a new dog and I really think an outgoing dog who is used to kids would be a better choice.

This dog needs a lot of work, and then likely needs to be in a quiet adult home with knowledgeable and patient owners.

Putting her into a busy home is almost guaranteeing failure and maybe seeing her bounced from home to home.

Last edited by Lucky Rescue; May 22nd, 2006 at 04:43 PM.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:57 PM
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I understand your concern Lucky but Wendy is more comfortable with kids and dogs,my niece and nephew were able to approach her (they were supervised) without any problem and she let them pet her.It's the adults she is scared of.And the new family live 3 hours from my place so I can't ask them to come and visit a couple of times.They do know that if I feel Wendy is not making any progress,they can't adopt her.But she is making progress!She is very playfull with me and I know she will become glued to the kids.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Rescue
To put a dog like this into a household with 3 young children is a very bad idea, IMO.

Children naturally want to be with, play with and pet a new dog and I really think an outgoing dog who is used to kids would be a better choice.

This dog needs a lot of work, and then likely needs to be in a quiet adult home with knowledgeable and patient owners.

Putting her into a busy home is almost guaranteeing failure and maybe seeing her bounced from home to home.
I agree 100% Although it's so wonderful you took her into your home you have to remember for 5 yrs she only seen horror and abuse. There is no way this dog will come around any time soon and possibly never will. But putting her in a home with 3 kids ... OMG this will be a nightmare for her and I'm sorry to say this. Kids have expectations and they could never truly understand her needs and there's always that chance they'll eventually want to rehome. IMO she needs quiet times and most probably would do best with 1 person where she could slowly gain some trust.

This family sure would make a wonderful home otherwise.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 08:20 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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You are asking for opinions, so I gave mine.

I fostered a totally unsocialized dog. She was only 1 year old and had not been abused, but even so I would never have adopted her into a busy household with children.

As Golden Girls said, this dog is 5 years old and may NEVER be like other dogs.

If this family wants a Golden, there are MANY of them available, and lots who would thrive on the action in this house and become an instant best friend and playmate to the kids.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 08:43 PM
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I also would like to add that I rescued a 2 year old golden from a crawlspace and had the pleasure and displeasure of 2 weeks trying to help him cope with the real world. I was completely exhausted and he tore my heart out just from the freight he felt from a fallen leaf as he never seen the outdoors. All I know is it was definately a full time job in every sense of the word.

I called every rescue, I couldnt handle it not for one more day. So I empathize with what both you and Wendy are going through but felt to share this story as well. A rescue did find him a wonderful home with a retired man and another golden. This story ended happily.

You can ask your rescue about this one ... his name was Rudy.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:29 PM
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As another member of Golden Rescue and the person who did the home visit for Freddie's adoption in this family, I want to state publicly that I believe that this is a great home for this dog.

These are not very small kids (as Frenchy mentioned, the youngest is 10). When I went to visit, they already had a senior Golden and were looking to adopt another senior from us. The care their dog received was exemplary. The behaviour of the children towards the dogs was exemplary. They were already used to being careful with an old dog who couldn't even walk up the stairs anymore. They are really a great, experienced family. All the pets in that house (including the cats and rabbit) are very well cared for, both physically and emotionally.

So the question is not IF Wendy should go there, but when.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:46 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Nobody doubts this family is wonderful, but anyone who has not dealt with a very unsocialized, semi-feral, or feral animal can't know how incredibly hard and frustrating it can be. It takes more patience than most people have, or think they have. If these people have worked with animals like this before, then great!

Here's hoping all works out well.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:57 PM
dbrowna dbrowna is offline
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cats and dogs

Not to take this in a totally new direction, but I desperately need some help. I've very recently taken in a foster pup ( 1 year old) to possibly adopt. He is a sweet boy except when it comes to my cats. I've got less than two weeks to make this miracle happen, or I cannot adopt him. I need some help to teach him that my cats and budgies live here too, and he needs to let them be? Is there any hope? My cats are nine and five years old and I love them dearly. My daughters and I want to keep Barny, but his chasing the cats upsets me very much. HELP!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:08 PM
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LR,

without going in too much detail, they also have some experience with feral cats. Trust me on this one I have so much good stuff to say about this family...
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:24 PM
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I felt I did answer the question which was of course only my opinion but in any event I'm sure everyone just wishes Wendy a wonderful life with a new family who will love her. It's wonderful that you rescued her, good luck!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:29 PM
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If I was 10 again, and I was the youngest of 3 (which I was) and we had the opportunity for this dog, my dad would jump at the chance. "Those" dogs were all we had. Our dobie was abandoned on a chain outside when his owner moved.. We knew nothing about him other than that he was there and we drove by, picked him up and that was it (I was 8). Our yellow lab was so unsocial with dogs and growly in general, and we kept her and learned from her without ever getting bitten (I was still 8). We always got the dogs that had a snowball's chance of surviving and we were young, and my dad knew dogs and it all worked out.

If the kids are in the right state of mind, I think this can work out. Some kids have great respect for animals if their parents teach them right.

Besides, 10 isn't that young anymore.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 11:43 PM
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Gee Wendy sounds like Declan! Scared of the entire world - or at least what's in my world. I've found a slow desensitization process is working best with Declan - everything in baby steps towards the eventual goal. For instance, your goal might be for Wendy to sit quietly with other people and not be overly nervous. Every day you, your chair and Wendy get closer by one foot (or two or three feet) to the room (and then into the room) where your friends/ family are seated. You gauge the distance you can move by her level of agitation. When she is anxious but not balking that's far enough for that session. Make sure your friends/family know to pay Wendy no attention and not to act boisterously so as not to upset her with noise or sudden movements. Wendy's new family can work on that part of her desensitization training. Declan was very fearful of strangers - men more so than women but he's always been fine with children. He will now sit quietly while adults talk to me, as long as they pay him no mind he will "check them out" and if they don't make any unexpected loud noise or thrust their hands at him - it's all to the good. But men are harder to train than women though
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 09:57 AM
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puppy mill foster

Good morning everyone. As a foster for a few years now and having 3 kids of my own (ages 7, 9 and 10), I think I can give you my experience with such dogs. First, I usually take in only puppies because I have young children, but have occasionnaly fostered pregnant dogs or nursing moms with pups. I can remember one particular dog, who was found in a barn with her pups. She came to me from another rescue (a single lady) who had taken her in. She was a purebred novascotia duck toller, had obviously never been in a home and was terrified of everything and anything, especially men. She would take off the minute the door would open. When we would put her outside in the yard (she could not jump our 6ft fence), my husband or company would have to leave the room or even the house, for her to enter again. She was fine with me and wonderfull with my 3 kids, especially our 7year old son, whom she adored. She would do anything for him. She was adopted out to a couple with no children...2years later, they still have her. But nevertheless has put quite a strain on this couple. She adores the wife and even though it is the husband that feeds her and gives her special treats, she is still frightened of him. On a few occasions when they have had company over and have babysit older kids, the dog escaped, she would always come back, once after a few days...but still always very stressfull. I personnaly, would not have been able to keep her. First, because the minute the kids opened the door, she was gone and I couldn't keep on scolding my kids for not being carefull, kids are kids! Second, because my husband would have wanted a dog that he could also enjoy, not just the kids and I. So...I think if everyfamily member in the dogs new household is very much aware of how the dog is and have realistic expectations, I am not worry about the kids, If they have been around this type of dog. Remember this is long term, not short and what happens after a few months when they see that the dog is not bonding to a perticular household member? Since you are the foster and know the dog well, I would go in to great detail about this dog and her problems, if not already done of course! Good Luck!
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 11:26 AM
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Thanks for everyone's input but the question was should I keep her longer or is it better for her to go to her new family soon.For those who think she shouldn't go to the family:I think you tought Wendy was worst than what she really is.I never said she was abuse.She is now comfortable with me,always wants to be pet and wants to be with me.Her tail is always wagging and she is very affectionate,even jumps on the bed to wake me up in the morning.She just wants to be love.I would never put a dog in the "wrong family" and none of my fosters ever came back.And we do have a policy that adopters have to sign;if for any reason they can't keep the dog,the dog returns to our rescue.I always keep in contact with them too.
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 03:12 PM
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If you think she is adjusting very well, then she should go to her new family as soon as possible. Just so she doesn't get too attached to you and then feel like she's been abandoned by her new owner. There is really no reason for you to keep her longer as she will have to go through another transition with her new family anyways.
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 03:48 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
If you think she is adjusting very well, then she should go to her new family as soon as possible
Yes. Since these people are qualified and experienced in dealing with dogs who have problems, she should probably go to them asap.
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 09:26 PM
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I have fostered and have adopted former racing greyhounds, with 2 being spooks. These dog of course were not raised as pets, so like i the case of the golden the transition from a kenneled life to a home is huge, the first 2 to 4 weeks they are in a sort of shell shock stage, simply over whelmed by everyting that is new and foreign to them and their senses are overloaded, so they kind of go thru the first couple of weeks in a dazed, and emotionally numb and as result may appear very submissive, when the shock wears off they start being able to react to things. I have heard of greys being introduced to the new adoptors kids in the foster home every thing seems great the dog submissisvely accepted the kids, it gets into its new home once it starts to relax and come out of the shell shock stage the behaviour then changes, and it will then show its fear or discomfort when the children approach by snapping growling and even biting. They have been socialized growing up to adults, for most they have never been around or have seen children before, the other thing to note is in the racing kennels the dogs each have their own crate, so get used to have private sleeping eating spaces, and this is another issue that shows itself usually a month or two after adoption when the dog finally settles in and the shock wears off, and when the adult or child crawls on the dog bed to petthe dog the dog will then been able comfortable enough at that point to react and say this scares me or this is my spot so leave or I am uncomfortable with this, by snapping , growling and sometimes with out even a warning and land a direct bite to the face. Being Wendy has had even much less socialization than racing greyhounds to people and other dogs and amuch more restrictive life, I would expect her to be in that emotionally numb stage for 4 to possibly 6 weeks, once she gets comfortable with her surrounding is she still going to having that same behaviour, or she going to show or let be let be known her fear or discomfort around children. So for my reccomendation is a 6 week foster period to see if once she gets comfortable in her surrounding to learn whether she will respond back when she becomes scared or whether she will remain submissive instead.

I have been around dogs for close to 50 years but only adopted my first super fearful(spook) adult dog 5 years ago and even a more fearful one 2 1/2 years ago, and all my experience around and owning dogs never really prepared me for the first, I enjoy them but they are definitely not for everyone and I no a lot of longtime dog owners who when seeing what I have been through would not want one themselves. And based on my own experiences question whether this family will be able to keep her if she reamins super fearful. What is this families lifestyle do they travel weekends, do they like going on vacations, do they have family they like to travel to to visit during holidays, some of the children may be getting to an age where they may be going off to college. Some of these superscared dogs cannot handle travelling and participating in family outings, what if she becomes too stressed to be kenneled or does not learn to trust others so they can bring in a sitter. I have one of these dogs I knew going into the adoption this was a possibilty and was prepare to accept that I may never be able to take a vacation or travel with her for the next 12 or so years. Is this family prepared for this kind of sacrifice if the dog does not come around, this was one of the issues I was asked repeatedly by the adoption rep from Florida when I inquired about adopting Maya, not all dogs will come around with love and patience alone and some will remain cripppled mentally by their phobic fears for the remainder of their lives and the adopter of these have to be aware of what they may be getting into before they adopt, as it is a huge and sometimes very life altering commitment that will last for several years so they should know the worse case senario before they adopt. I would not have been able to make to same commitment had I still had my son at home, as it would have meant denying my son camping trips, going to weekend sports tournaments etc.

I have no doubt the adopters are a wonderful family but they may not be the right one for this particular dog, if she does not come around, she may end up being a heavy weight around their neck denying them pleasure like going vacations with the kids or preventing them from visiting their kids at college or prevent them from visiting their first grandchild.
When one has a sick old dog the time frame is much shorter and often bearable, Wendy may live to 15 or 16.
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 10:15 PM
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These were my personal thoughts as well. I don't understand how you don't call living in a puppy mill for 5 years not abuse. It is one of the worst kind ... Just the amount of people, kids and other pets in this home is enough to scare the living daylights out of this dog that's be used to produce, caged possibly in some dark warehouse for 5 years ... I'm sorry!

You opened this thread and asked when she should go to this new home, and my reply IMO was simply she shouldnt go at all. You'd be lucky if she could ever come around even if it was a 1 person home. I don't take comfort in knowing you get her back if it simply doesn't work out. How much should this dog have to go through. She needs love and rest in a quiet environment. You rescued her ... again, it's wonderful, but it's not the time to be offended rather just be open to different points of view and different people's experiences.
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Old May 24th, 2006, 09:59 AM
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Please refrain from hostile responses. This is a friendly board and rudeness will not be tolerated. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.
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Old May 24th, 2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbrowna
Not to take this in a totally new direction, but I desperately need some help. I've very recently taken in a foster pup ( 1 year old) to possibly adopt. He is a sweet boy except when it comes to my cats. I've got less than two weeks to make this miracle happen, or I cannot adopt him. I need some help to teach him that my cats and budgies live here too, and he needs to let them be? Is there any hope? My cats are nine and five years old and I love them dearly. My daughters and I want to keep Barny, but his chasing the cats upsets me very much. HELP!
You should start a new thread if you want to introduce a new topic...or else it's called threadjacking
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Old May 24th, 2006, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fosterpat
If you think she is adjusting very well, then she should go to her new family as soon as possible. Just so she doesn't get too attached to you and then feel like she's been abandoned by her new owner. There is really no reason for you to keep her longer as she will have to go through another transition with her new family anyways.
I agree. It may make her fearfull behavior exponentially worse if she gets very attached to you, then goes to a new home. She'll feel abandoned, you and I both know that you're not abandoning her, but she doesn't.

Quote:
As another member of Golden Rescue and the person who did the home visit for Freddie's adoption in this family, I want to state publicly that I believe that this is a great home for this dog.
Since none of us did the home visit, I don't think we should be weighing in on wether or not Wendy should go to her new home. The question asked in the OP was when should she go....JMO
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Old May 24th, 2006, 09:42 PM
t.pettet t.pettet is offline
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puppy

One rule of thumb I've always followed when placing a rescue in his/her new home is that if I'm not 100% sure this is the best place for the dog then they stay with me until those special people are found. I appreciate that you don't want her to get overly attached to you but if you think for a moment that she might be returned (for whatever reason) would it not be in the best interest of the dog to wait in the secure environment she's in rather than be put through more stress and fearful situations and I tend to agree that 3 kids can be pretty rough and scarry on even a well socialized dog.
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Old May 26th, 2006, 03:24 AM
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It sounds like this family has been well screened and approved. No one wants this dog to go to the wrong home and I am sure everyone involved has thought this through.
So let's deal with the original question. I think it would be ideal for the family to visit you regularly to make a smoother transition. For the first meeting you should have her on the leash so she can't flee. The family should ignore her at first and just sit and chat with you. Let her get comfortable on her own terms and as she gets curious about them they can reach forward and pet her for 1-2 seconds (a nice deep rub at the side of the head) and then take their hand away and let her ask for more. Then the kids could get on the ground and start to play quietly with a favorite toy or bone, see if she approaches to join in the fun.
As you see her getting comfortable you can hand the leash to mom or dad and have them sit with her. Don't let her flee. Ignore her but don't let her flee. Make these people a none event, and even fun when she relaxes a bit. As she gets more comfortable the person with the leash should take a quick walk into another room with her and then back again. Start to take a leadership role. You get the idea. Baby steps but quickly enough to get the ball rolling.
If you show her that these people are wonderful she will trust them too. You are her current leader but they need to start taking that role. She will trust in your judgement and learn to trust them through you. This can happen quickly - to the point where you wonder if you weren't as vital to her existence as you thought. Sorry that can hurt . not to say that you haven't played a huge role in her transition, but if we baby her too much and over emotionalize everything then we could be doing her a disservice. Dogs can be so much more flexible than we give them credit for. Heck its who they are designed to be. They have to adjust to new situations all of the time in order to survive. If you make it all a big deal then thats just what it will be.
Give her the respect, love and time she needs to get to know these people but she just might surprise you with how quickly this can happen.
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Last edited by tenderfoot; May 26th, 2006 at 02:02 PM.
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