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Old September 11th, 2010, 12:44 PM
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Unhappy Puddles

Puddles just got back from the vet, he suspects she is in early stages of renal failure . Her creatinine is up quite a bit from last time (9 months ago), and as is the bun reading. The cre is just over the high range and her bun is now in high normal. Previous blood work over the years has been consistently mid-high normal range.

The only good thing was her blood calcium has finally dropped into normal range. It has been slowly dropping since I changed her diet a few years ago.

She has go back next week to get her urine checked .

We knew this was coming due to her kidney damage when she got into the paint thinner, but it still comes as a shock .
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Old September 11th, 2010, 12:49 PM
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Awe L4H I am so sorry to hear this...I can so relate to how you are feeling right now. Be strong and positive! What is your vet recommending at this point?

I didnt know puddles got into paint thinner! OMG that must have been horrible.

mf

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Old September 11th, 2010, 12:50 PM
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I'm praying for the best for Puddles! Maybe with a little early intervention you can get the numbers turned around Does she seem to be feeling okay?
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Old September 11th, 2010, 12:53 PM
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So so sorry to read this L4H...hopefully she is not suffering too much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston View Post

I didnt know puddles got into paint thinner! OMG that must have been horrible.

Don't remember reading about this either...how awful.

Hope there are some measures you can follow to keep her comfy and viable for longer

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Old September 11th, 2010, 01:56 PM
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L4H, I'm so sorry to hear about Puddles.

I'm another one who doesn't remember about her getting into the paint thinner. Sending lots of prayers and good wishes your way.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 02:53 PM
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sorry about puddles L4H
hoping that since it's early stages maybe it can be turned around

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Old September 11th, 2010, 07:33 PM
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Oh I am so sorry but hopefully you caught it early and can turn it around
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:00 PM
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L4H, how long ago did you switch to raw for your kitties? Is your vet aware of it? Not sure where I read it, but for sure something written by Dr. Jean Dodds, that creatinine levels in raw fed cats and dogs are higher than non-raw fed ones. I'll try to find the article for you.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:18 PM
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This study was done using dogs but, I imagine results would be similar for cats. Not only creatinine levels, but BUN and hematrocrit levels are also higher in those that are raw fed.

Quote:
Preliminary statistical comparisons of
results for the raw and cereal-based diets found them to be essentially the same with the
following notable exceptions:
• Higher packed cell volume (hematocrit) in all raw diet fed groups (range of 51.0 ± 6.6 – 53.5 ±
5.6 %) versus cereal-based kibble (47.6 ± 6.1 %).
• Higher blood urea nitrogen (BUN) in all raw diet fed groups (range of 18.8 ± 6.9 – 22.0 ± 8.7
mg/dL) versus cereal-based kibble (15.5 ± 4.7 mg/dL).
• Higher serum creatinine in the Volhard raw diet group only (1.20 ± 0.34 mg/dL) versus cerealbased
kibble (1.07 ± 0.28 mg/dL).

While a more detailed analysis of other parameters has yet to be completed, initial results indicate
that dogs fed raw meats (natural carnivores) have higher red blood cell and blood urea nitrogen
levels than dogs fed cereal-based food (obligate omnivores). Thus, the normal reference values for
dogs fed raw food diets should probably be revised.
http://www.homevet.com/petcare/docum...enutrition.pdf

I hope this provides some explanations for you and that Puddles isn't really experiencing early stage renal failure .
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:23 PM
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I am just sick about this . This has been a horrible year for cats, Duffy, Bomber, Rocky, Crunchie, beautiful Brownie

Puddles has been on raw for a couple of years, her cre and bun values have been so consistent at about 146-152 over the last 5 years and this time they have spiked to 192 as well as her bun (I can't remember that number, I was numbed when I saw the cre). That is why my vet is thinking early renal failure.

She got into paint thinner when she was only a year old. She spent 3 nights at the vets barely surviving and her vet at that time estimated 40-50% permanent kidney damage. A contractor, who was building a house beside us left a rolling pan with paint thinner in it outside. Of course Puddles jumped in it then licked her paws.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:37 PM
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Where to from here, L4H? Is there anything that can be done to help her if it is indeed early stage renal failure?
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:53 PM
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So sorry to hear Puddles numbers are up... that it was a fluke reading or something. And I agree, we've had too many losses here on the board this year....pets all of us have grown to love, even if never meeting. Hang in there!
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Old September 11th, 2010, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
This study was done using dogs but, I imagine results would be similar for cats. Not only creatinine levels, but BUN and hematrocrit levels are also higher in those that are raw fed.



http://www.homevet.com/petcare/docum...enutrition.pdf

I hope this provides some explanations for you and that Puddles isn't really experiencing early stage renal failure .
OMG, I could only pray . My vet knows she is on a raw/quality canned. He really wants to find out how well her kidneys are working hence the urinalysis next week.

He wants his nutrition specialist to do an analysis on her food, but all I could think of was Growler and SCM, who I trust so much more. He is knowledgeable enough to know that quality protein and only a canned diet for cats . He doesn't agree with my homemade diet though .
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Old September 11th, 2010, 10:52 PM
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I'm so sorry to see this. I truly hope it is due to the raw diet and nothing more. Sending lotsa and your way.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 07:14 AM
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Thank you everybody for your well wishes.

I didn't sleep last night, all I could think of was Puddles. I guess the urinalysis will tell us how well her kidneys are still functioning. Getting urine out of her is such a chore as she is NOT cooperative.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 08:21 AM
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Sending lots and lots of and ers your way. I hope the levels are more from the raw diet than renal failure.
Have you tried Puddles with Nosorb to see if she will use it to pee in? That's what I've used for a couple of mine. But if they are stubborn it takes a while. Your vet would have it.
I am thinking of you and Puddles.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Sending lots and lots of and ers your way. I hope the levels are more from the raw diet than renal failure.
Have you tried Puddles with Nosorb to see if she will use it to pee in? That's what I've used for a couple of mine. But if they are stubborn it takes a while. Your vet would have it.
I am thinking of you and Puddles.
Yes, I have tried no-sorb, it took about 14 hours to get her to pee and only then because I gave up and followed her around the house until she went to her normal litter box and had to pick her up mid stream and put her in the litter box with the no sorb. I think what I am going to do is scoop her up in a carrier and take her immediately to the vet as soon as I get home from work. She normally goes outside to do her pees as soon as we get home.

I really don't think it is the raw diet, there have been signs. She is loosing muscle mass (half of pound), she is not nearly as active. I was hoping it was the heat . I've had that gut feeling something is not right, but in denial and looking for excuses.

She has conjunctivitus in her left eye (original reason for the vet visit), poor girl
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Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

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Old September 12th, 2010, 08:58 AM
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L4H...I just got on and read your thread.I'm so sorry. As far as Puddles activities, it can very well be the weather. My cats seem to be docile around the house. Puddles. Thinking of you.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Oh no L4H,it's been a very difficult year here on the Forum,so nothing bad can happen to Puddles.
the diagnosis will be found to be because of the raw feeding

The Forum has been a great comfort to me and I am sure Growler and SCM can give you some very helpful advice.

When I needed a pee-sample from my Peppi(RIP),I followed him to the litterbox and stuck a little container under him when he started peeing,worked great.
to you and little beautiful Puddles.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 04:52 PM
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Sorry to hear about Puddles L4H, hopefully she still has many good times ahead and her condition is manageable.

It sure has been a rough few months on here. Bendy posted the other day in the tjt that Boo has late stage renal failure......does anyone know why it is so prevalent in cats?
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Old September 12th, 2010, 04:59 PM
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Thank you, chico, chris and cpietra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris21711 View Post
Sorry to hear about Puddles L4H, hopefully she still has many good times ahead and her condition is manageable.

It sure has been a rough few months on here. Bendy posted the other day in the tjt that Boo has late stage renal failure......does anyone know why it is so prevalent in cats?
, oh no, poor Bendyfoot

I don't know why, perhaps there is a genetic weakness in the species . It would be interesting to find out.
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Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

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Old September 12th, 2010, 06:11 PM
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L4H, I'm so sorry to hear about Puddles. I hope her next test results will be much better!
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Old September 12th, 2010, 07:45 PM
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L4H, I'm so sorry about Puddles. You always hear getting illnesses early is best and hopefully this is where you are. I know you are going to do everything you can to help your girl.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 08:12 PM
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I'm sorry to hear about the bloodwork results, L4H.

Even if further tests confirm that it is indeed early stage (stage 2) kidney failure, there is much that can be done to manage it and help slow the progression. Cats can live for many years with CRF. that you will have Puddles with you for several more years to come.

Yes, CRF is quite common in cats. I'm sure there may be various reasons for this. However, I have read that there have been some interesting studies done in recent years indicating there may be a possible connection between CRF and over-vaccination of cats, in particular with the FVRCP vaccine.

Here is a link to some information on an earlier study [there are later studies (as recently as last year) but I can't find a link at the moment]:

http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/Insig...l2004/cats.htm
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Last edited by mikischo; September 12th, 2010 at 10:24 PM. Reason: Added link.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 06:58 AM
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Thank you AG for your kind thoughts.

Mikischo, I have printed out the text from the link you provided me with. Thank you very much for that. I have never been a fan of constant vaccinations. Yes, they are important and protect against deadly diseases, but I think going overboard with ones are not doing any human or animal any good. Interesting that FRVCP may also be connected to hyperthyroidism, another common ailment in cats.

From Mikischo's link above:
Insight

Fall 2004

Welcome

Veterinarians have long been stumped by the high prevalence of kidney disease in cats. While some cases are tied to specific illness such as arterial hypertension, pyelonephritis (infections), or toxicities, most causes of chronic renal failure in cats remain undetermined. So when feline vaccine research at Colorado State University showed some interesting anomalies in feline blood samples, researchers were intrigued and began to ask some questions that are in the process of being answered.

“Cats commonly go into chronic kidney failure, especially older cats, and we’ve been asking ourselves for a long time, what goes wrong, what kills these kidneys over time?” said Dr. Michael Lappin, Professor in the Department of Clinical Sciences and the Kenneth W. Smith Professor in Small Animal Clinical Medicine. “Most cats that die of kidney failure without a known cause have infiltrations of lymphocytes and plasma cells in the kidney tissues. These cells can indicate an immune reaction.”

In the 1970s, it was discovered that a cell line derived from a cat kidney – the Crandall-Reese feline kidney (CRFK) cell line – could be used to grow feline viruses like feline herpesvirus1 (FHV-1), calicivirus, and panleukopenia. Some vaccine manufacturers began using the CRFK cell line to grow the viruses and then used them in a combined vaccine (FVRCP vaccine). In general, veterinarians administer the FVRCP vaccines to cats approximately three times as kittens with a booster at one year and, after that, boosters every one to three years. The use of the FVRCP vaccination program has helped save many feline lives by inducing great immunity to these three dangerous viruses.

During the course of a Colorado State University and Heska Corporation collaborative study to determine if blood tests could be used to assess the need for vaccines, researchers made an interesting discovery that related to the commonly used FVRCP vaccine.

“The vaccine companies are doing a great job making pure and effi cacious vaccines,” said Dr. Lappin. “However, when FVRCP vaccines are made, each dose is contaminated with just a little bit of cell culture. What we discovered recently was that cats not only develop antibodies to the viruses in the vaccine, which is our intent, but they also develop antibodies to the cell culture – a culture based on a feline kidney cell line. And that’s where we have to begin to ask some very intriguing questions. In particular, is it possible that overvaccination induces antibodies that are associated with immune-mediated feline kidney disease?”

An early proof concept study conducted in Dr. Lappin’s laboratory as a collaboration between Colorado State University and the Heska Corporation showed the development of CRFK antibodies in cats after administration of injectable FVRCP vaccines. In some cats, these antibodies reacted with cat kidney cell extracts as well. But just because cats are producing antibodies to the CRFK proteins and cat kidney cell extracts does not mean those antibodies are causing illnesses or the deterioration of a cat’s kidney health. Dr. Lappin said much work remains to be done before associations like that can be made. In a grant recently funded by the Heska Corporation, a more in-depth approach should begin to provide some answers. Dr. Lappin and Dr. Jacqueline Whittemore will study which feline tissues react with anti-CRFK antibodies; determine the concentrations of CRFK proteins in all commercially available FVRCP vaccines; and determine if the presence of CRFK or feline kidney cell antibodies are associated with the development of particular illnesses in cats including kidney failure, uveitis, pancreatitis, and hyperthyroidism.

Concerns regarding over-vaccination have led the American Association of Feline Practitioners to adjust the vaccine schedule for FVRCP to once every three years after the kitten series and one year booster. However, it is very important for each cat to be treated as an individual. Owners should bring their cats to their veterinarian every year for a health check-up and to determine an optimal vaccination plan. In other studies, Dr. Lappin worked closely with the Heska Corporation to develop a veterinary-market blood test so veterinarians can test patients to see if vaccine boosters are necessary at the time of a cat’s annual check-up rather than just arbitrarily vaccinating.

For additional information on these studies or if you are interested in finding out how you can support Dr. Lappin’s work, contact Dr. Lappin at (970) 221-4535.
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Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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Old September 13th, 2010, 07:14 AM
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Love4,,i'm so sorry to hear about Puddles. Hopefully SCM and Growler will be able to help out with some info that will help your sweetie get back on track..
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Old September 13th, 2010, 07:59 AM
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Thank you for that info,Mikischo and L4H,all my cats had their vaccinations every year from kitten-hood.
I used to always blindly agree what my vets told me and accepted it..
Rocky,Chico and Vinnie until a couple of years ago,where vaccinated the same.
Now,they get their 3year Rabies and that's it,my current vet does not argue with me about it.
Although this rapport does not directly blame vaccines,there will be no more shots for my cats,even the slightest risk,is a risk I will not take.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 08:31 AM
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L4H - so very sorry to hear this.

I wish you well dear friend and for you to find the strength to get through this. My thoughts and prayers are with you and Puddles.
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  #29  
Old September 13th, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
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Thank you Aslan and BenMax.


Tomorrow is her appt for the urinalysis, I hope the vet is able to get some and we will know if this last blood work was just an anomaly spike (increased by 33% from the last work up in Dec.).

chico, I too trusted my vet and got Snowball and Puddles their shots every year. Not any more though.
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Cat maid to:

Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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  #30  
Old September 13th, 2010, 12:57 PM
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14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
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Sending for a successful visit tomorrow.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
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