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  #31  
Old March 15th, 2006, 08:02 PM
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but water is zero calories, veggies have a very similiar water content so has no bearing when someone is feeding raw and working out protein based on percent of total calories.
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  #32  
Old March 15th, 2006, 08:12 PM
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Yeah, but when technodoll said 15% she meant by weight because she was comparing it to kibble. (unless I'm misunderstanding)
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  #33  
Old March 15th, 2006, 10:09 PM
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you can get the numbers here, great site! shows the protein % of all meats in a raw form (and yes raw meat is near 80% water)

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

here is the analysis for 100gr of raw beef heart, for example: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...st_nut_edit.pl

as you can see, raw meat has an average of 15-18% protein - 100% bioavailable to the dog (or cat!).

really cool site!
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  #34  
Old March 15th, 2006, 10:26 PM
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I found one of those sites for Canada a long time ago... I'll have to go find it. It had the break down of a gazillion foods (human foods). They're quite helpful.
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  #35  
Old March 15th, 2006, 10:31 PM
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the usda site is for human foods too - try it, it addictive!


so... yes i was confirming that a raw diet (well the meat part!) is low in protein, however since it's 100% digestible... you can't compare that to a kibble that claims "23% crude protein" (for example), since nobody knows HOW MUCH of this protein is actually utilised by the dog eating it. make sense?
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  #36  
Old March 15th, 2006, 10:40 PM
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yep. But if you looked at the % of calories that come from protein in raw vs. the % of calories from protein in kibble, it would be a huge difference.
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  #37  
Old March 15th, 2006, 10:52 PM
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well of course. a substantial part of the protein in kibble comes from grains, not meat, and grains = carbs = more calories than meat.

it's like comparing apples and oranges, other than both being fruit... ya ain't got much to work with, LOL! damn, it's like trying to nail jello to a tree, LOL!
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  #38  
Old March 15th, 2006, 10:57 PM
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No, more like comparing grains to meats... And it's hard to know exactly which grains are used and which aren't. That's one thing about biology (one of the bad things), we get to learn about proteins in depth (way too much depth) and before that, you think protein is just protein. Well, protein is basically the product of genes, and when you think of all our genes can do, imagine all the different proteins involved. So which ones benefit us and which don't? Until we remove profits from the equation, I don't think we'll ever know.

hee hee jello to a tree.
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  #39  
Old March 15th, 2006, 11:45 PM
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hail hail! oh lordy i just prepared the doggies' treats for tomorrow... what to do with those stale-ish ends of breads... you slather on some peanut-butter, fold in half and stick 'em in the freezer overnight... so they each have a frozen whole wheat pb sammich for their day treat - wonder what the protein content is for that?? LOL - i'll bet the doggies don't care! (and as i type this the little one is chewing away at a peice of raw beef heart... THAT i know is 17% protein! ha ha)

ok getting carried away here, sorry (nothing much to do with innova evo anymore... thread hijacking... oooops)
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  #40  
Old March 16th, 2006, 04:23 AM
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So if raw meat protein as total percent of weight

and kibble protein is a percent of overall ingredient contents, they are non comparable when looking at the percent numbers, because the percentages are based on different forms of measure which is why the numbers vary so much which was the point I was trying to make earlier

So you have to convert if you want to compare kibbles with raw , so you are measuring percent on the same basis

so lets convert EVO using the FAO documents



Evo is made of chicken protein 12% turkey 13.5% potatoes 1.7%, herring 20% , you would have to combine all those ingredient in the ratio's that is used when processing,
Quote:
Turkey, Chicken ,Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal
mash it all together then scoop out 100 mg and then measure the protein , taking in consideration that some of the meat is meal, it will likely be around 17 % still comparable to raw
---------------------------------------------------------------

lets do the same with Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice

Quote:
Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran,
Here you will notice there are 3 forms of rice, in reality rice is the main ingredient but to make it appear that Lamb is the main ingredient manufacturers found a way to get around the labeling in a legal manner by doing what is called grain splitting, in this food close to 3/4 of the overall contents is actually rice which means the dog is getting very little protein from meat. This holds true when only the first ingredient is meat and the next 2 or 3 ingredients following are grains of various sources. Proteins that comes mainly from grains are a poor source of amino acids nor will they sufficient quantities of all 10 amino acids that a dog requires

so with the Nutro, Rice is 7.1 % lamb 12.8 % since rice makes up about 3/4 of the diet (3 x7.1) + 12.8 / 4 = 8.5% protein
------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf King
Quote:
Bison | Salmon Meal | Brown Rice | Millet | Cracked Pearled Barley | Oatmeal | Rice Bran
with 2 meat sources followed by 5 grains, the grains are going to make up more than 50% of the diet but I will use 50% for calculating , luckily the Salmon is before the grains and is an excellent protein source and an excellent source of amino acids
[(Buffalo 12.8%, salmon 20%) x2 + (brown rice 7.5, millet 9.7, barley 9, oatmeal 13, rice bran 7.1 ) X 2 / 4 = 15.9 % protein(actual amount will be a little higher because % are not given for meat meals) so again this is equivalent to raw and EVO
------------------------------------------------------------------

I noticed Solid Gold also has a new high protein food but seeing that it uses a lot of salmon it will likely be closer to 18% protein if calculated using the figures from FAO
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Science Diet Large Breed -- is ridiculously heavy on corn and uses soy as their main protien source allowing them to use very little meat therefore creating a high profit, it is lacking the amino acids , but it keeps the protein in line with raw with it's use of soy, so as much as I hate to say it( and it makes me want to choke on these words ) is better than Nutro at meeting a dogs protein requirements, by adding a couple salmon oil capsules each day to the dogs diet you can make up for the lacking amino acids and have a healthier dog as long as they can tolerate the corn.

{Ground Whole Grain Corn 9.5 x 3},+ Chicken By-Product Meal 12.3, + Soybean Meal 38% /5 = 15.7 %

The ways foods are currently labeled confuses the heckout of buyers and makes it hard to tell if the food they are feeding is nutritionally healthy or just sufficient to keep the dog surviving


By converting the kibble diets in this manner, you start to get a more realistic view, though as I found maybe not the results I had even expected with some foods prior to calculating
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  #41  
Old March 16th, 2006, 04:43 AM
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Pretty elaborate calculations... But that's not including the fact that some proteins are not digested at all. Like the corn... That would lower it, too (I think it's far less than 1/2 digestible). I think it would bring science diet below nutro...

I did one of those for Iams a while back (post 19): http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=15049
I tried to deduce how much of the food's protein came from sources that were not useful to the dog... I used the canadian food breakdown website back then for the nutritional breakdowns.

Last edited by Prin; March 16th, 2006 at 04:46 AM.
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  #42  
Old March 16th, 2006, 09:37 AM
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good post ontariogreys! however i will have to disagree, again you are trying to compare apples to oranges. pure raw meat protein %'s cannot be compared to kibble protein %'s no matter how you flip that pancake, because they are two VERY different biological realities. kibble is cooked. kibble contains grains, vegetable matter, etc. all this alters the bioavailability of the nutrients. you can crack your head trying to analyse & break matter down to comparable bits, but the truth of the matter is: raw meat and kibble are digested & absorbed in completely different ways. it takes a dog 4 hours to digest meat & bones, and 12-16 hours to digest kibble (no matter the brand). that, alone, says a lot.

and strangely, from the mouth of the devil - ooops i mean purina itself (http://www.puppychow.com/Nutrition/About_Protein.aspx):
Quality control during pet food processing is important. Protein may be damaged by heat processing, but most reputable pet food manufacturers use proper cooking methods and employ quality control measures to ensure that products are made properly. Because information about protein digestibility cannot be listed on pet food labels, the manufacturer's reputation is important.

and i just found this disturbing statement from http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...bc/182904.htm:
Statement of Nutritional Adequacy:
This statement indicates how the food was tested (feeding versus laboratory analysis or formulation) and for which life stage the food is intended. AAFCO recognizes only 4 life stages: growth, maintenance, gestation, and lactation. The term “all life stages” is frequently used on a label and indicates that the product has been either formulated or tested for growth. By default, it is anticipated that such a food would also pass a maintenance protocol because testing a food for growth generally includes gestation and lactation. There are no AAFCO-approved nutrient profiles for geriatric, senior, or weight loss stages.

The statement “complete and balanced” indicates the product contains all nutrients presently known to be required by dogs or cats and that these nutrients are properly balanced to the energy density of the diet. The “complete and balanced” claim must be substantiated by successfully completing AAFCO feeding trials, or the food must contain at least the minimal amount of each nutrient recommended by AAFCO. There are cautions “against the use of these requirements (levels) without demonstration of nutrient availability” because some of the requirements are based on studies in which the nutrients were supplied as purified ingredients and, therefore, are not representative of ingredients used in commercial pet foods. Laboratory analysis does not address the issue of bioavailability.
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  #43  
Old March 31st, 2006, 10:51 PM
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wow! I think I need a master's in biology and mathematics to read this thread!!
I wonder if the people buying Ol'Roy at Walmart have conversations about protein % in their dog's diet.....
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  #44  
Old March 31st, 2006, 11:36 PM
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i'm glad this thread has been revived... i think education is very important since marketing hype tries its best to pull the wool over our eyes... sharing knowledge = power to the people!

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  #45  
Old March 31st, 2006, 11:37 PM
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wow! I think I need a master's in biology and mathematics to read this thread!!
I agree, someone should have started a new thread to discuss this. Poor bklevar never did get an answer to her question posted march 10/06 and I think she`s given up.
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  #46  
Old March 31st, 2006, 11:45 PM
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yeah the discussion did branch out somewhat - but it's still all tied IMO. the question was, is it safe to feed such a high-protein food long-term to a dog, specially to a less-active housedog. i personally believe that we will see the answer to that in 10 or so years, when dogs have been eating this artificially-boosted food for that long. until then it's anyone's guess, unless someone can provide a scientific research that spanned the normal life-cycle of dogs that were fed this food the whole time...

i believe that the closer to nature we feed ourselves and our pets, the better off we all are. 'nuff said...
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  #47  
Old April 1st, 2006, 12:43 AM
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Yeah, I'm waiting and seeing before feeding Evo to my dogs.
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