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Old November 20th, 2016, 09:39 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Aggression From Neutered Male Dogs

Some, a few, not the majority, of neutered male dogs really don't like intact male dogs. Anybody else with an intact male had problems with this?

My boy is intact and we had our worst neutered male ever attack him two days ago. My boy was smaller and got the worst of it, two small puncture wounds in his ear and a badly twisted leg he couldn't put weight on a few hours later. That leg was already bad from a skiing injury and he probably aggravated it while trying to get up from under the bigger dog.

My boy is always taken by surprise by antipathy from these dogs and always he has been able to evade and defuse by literally turning his cheek, butt cheek, to the other dog. Not this time, the other dog just sniffed, mounted, lunged and attacked.

Do you have an intact male? Have you had these problems with a few neutered males?
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Old November 20th, 2016, 11:14 AM
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hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
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Our labrador, Luke, lo these many years ago, was intact and we had the same problem. I'm not sure why--but he was a big bruiser and very bold and we always thought maybe his size and attitude was somehow intimidating the neutered males. That doesn't seem to be the case with your guy, though, so maybe Luke was totally innocent in the matter, after all. He always seemed surprised by an attack, as well--which, considering how well they read body language, seemed odd to me.

Was the other dog unleashed? How did you get them apart? You didn't get hurt, did you?

I hope your guy recovers quickly
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Old November 20th, 2016, 12:36 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Here's the thing with neuter and spay.

Male dogs, like male humans, need testosterone in their systems or the endocrine system can be thrown off balance - it's a dance of hormones. Once the testes are removed, the only other organ left in the body that is capable of producing small amounts of testosterone are the adrenal glands. No testosterone production in the testes can equate to putting the adrenal glands on overload. Same can be said for females and estrogen production.

Early neuter especially can screw up a pup (prior to puberty), dealt with that first hand. They typically grow larger as they go through puberty abnormally, bone plates are slower to close etc. Early neuter can lead to hypothyroid conditions - primary and secondary. Primary being lack of production of thyroxine, secondary being the body can't use it. And a hypo condition can actually create aggression issues that neuter is supposed to take care of.

Catch 22 isn't it? Read up on Jean Dodd's work on the canine endocrine system. I still have Bob Barker burned in my brain. I will never desex another animal unless it's medically necessary.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 12:59 PM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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The other dog was leashed and my boy was off on a trail where he is allowed to be off. I wish people who need to leash their dog would walk somewhere else but they are allowed on this trail too.

My boy, a Lab, is much better today. As per Vet I've been icing and giving him Traumeel. Did you know Traumeel works best for acute pain? That's what my VEt says and it did help. I was never much impressed with it before.

The other dog didn't get hurt at all. My boy will try to avoid a fight but if there is one he's no wallflower but he didn't have a chance. I was worried about the other owner as she did not let go of the leash and when the dogs moved toward her she went down on the ground and if they had moved more she might have been bitten. A man that lived nearby heard the commotion and came to help us and while he helped her hold her dog when her dog let go a bit I was able to drag mine away. She is ok,

The theory for this phenomenon, of neutered male dogs taking a dislike to intact males, is they're jealous. That's a joke, partly a joke of course. My theory is it's an extension of the puppy license phenomenon wherein male dogs at puberty have their testosterone soar to sometims 7 times what it will be at adulthood. This is explained in the link I will put below. I wonder if for neutered males it seems a bit the same, the intact dog smells strongly of much more testosterone than they do and they take offense. This one was highly offended. I am thinking I should warn one of my neighbours who has a lovely male intact GR puppy who at 8 months or so might be just at this stage. And he has a bad front leg from a birth defect. If this dog got at him it could be very bad.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/dog-communication
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Old November 20th, 2016, 03:21 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is online now
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I was at a park with Marty who is neutered and we meet a guy you had a
intact male dog. Our dogs got along really good and were playing nicely so the guy asked if I would like to walk to his house which was close to the park . We started to walk over then I started thinking this might not be a good idea b/c I am bringing my dog into a the other dog yard and he is intact . I asked the guy if it was safe to bring my male dog to his house and he said it was, they do all the time . As soon as we got into the yard the dog had my dog pinned down on his back and I was telling the guy to get his dog off my dog ,he had his son do it and I was shocked . Once Marty was back on his legs he was going try and rip the dog apart , I can't blame him for wanting to do this ! Poor Marty he was attacked by another dog on his butt and had puncture wounds ,then had a coyote checking him for a meal , needless to say Marty doesn't like dogs near him while he on a leash .
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Old November 20th, 2016, 04:20 PM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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That's true Barking Dog, one on the leash and one off is often not a good mix. And they do behave differently in their own yard, more confidence, than out and about. In our case it was the leashed dog who approached us, dragging his owner.

rhynes, that's a good observation too, the hypothyroidism link to too early neuter. Actually I believe new studies show the link exists, to a milder extent, with dogs neutered at any age. Both GR studies, I think, I have them both in my "library" of the risks and benefits of neuter/spay. At first thought I would have guessed hypothyroidism, if aggression was going to be a symptom for a particular dog, would affect them no matter what other dog they met. But on second thought the extra testosterone reeking off an intact male might just be what would set one of these neutered males off.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 10:21 PM
Lynne&Co. Lynne&Co. is offline
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May I ask why your male is intact?

Intact males have a different smell than other dogs. Testosterone gives them their strong scent which may be considered a threat to neutered males. There are some dog parks that do not accept intact males due to the potential conflict. Interestingly, when dogs reach 10 months, there's a peak in this smell as testosterone levels in the adolescent male dog may be five to seven times greater than the levels of an adult! That 8 month old puppy may soon be at serious risk.
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Old November 20th, 2016, 11:10 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is online now
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I think a coyote is marking my yard as his territory b/c I can smell urine that a lot stronger smelling than my dog . It's really strong ! Stinky too !
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Old November 20th, 2016, 11:31 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
rhynes, that's a good observation too, the hypothyroidism link to too early neuter. Actually I believe new studies show the link exists, to a milder extent, with dogs neutered at any age. Both GR studies, I think, I have them both in my "library" of the risks and benefits of neuter/spay. At first thought I would have guessed hypothyroidism, if aggression was going to be a symptom for a particular dog, would affect them no matter what other dog they met. But on second thought the extra testosterone reeking off an intact male might just be what would set one of these neutered males off.
Not necessarily grumpy with all dogs, ex's minpin was very hit and miss. He was never an aggressive dog, always ran the parks with other dogs and no issues. It was when he started getting aggressive and fearful with some dogs, I knew he had an issue. It was only some dogs, and he wound up running to me for help more and more. He was neutered at 4 or 5 months.

And yes, even neuter post puberty or after 2 years can cause endocrine issues. The body always needs testosterone. When I hear about all these undiagnosed itchy and overweight dogs living on prednisone, really makes me wonder.
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Old November 21st, 2016, 10:05 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynne&Co. View Post
May I ask why your male is intact?
Yes you may. He was going to be neutered. But I found the Sanborn and Kustritz articles on the risks and benefits and took them to my VEt to discuss. She had been pushing for neuter before 6 months (after that the price would go up depending on his weight) but then flip flopped, saying Labs are not known to be an aggressive breed and why didn't we wait till 18 months. 18 months would probably allow for growth plate closure.

I have a non-breeding contract on my boy but it is not a neuter contract, from his breeder. We don't need DDC and boarding and training facilities near me do allow intact dogs. Our rural area allows him to be off leash in many places. Any training issues we had were due to his very high energy, and none were sexually dimorphic and 18 months came and went and now he's 9 years old and still intact. He doesn't hump anything, he's not aggressive, he doesn't run loose (no dog should run loose, intact or not) he doesn't mark in buildings.

While his scent may displease a few neutered males, girl dogs, on the other hand, spayed or not, seem to mostly really like him. ONe neighbour's rescued Basset Hound, rescued from a puppy mill, picked my boy as her friend. Her owner said he was the only dog she would run to greet and play with, when first rescued. He has boyfriends too but as I said, he never humps. IN fact one much bigger Lab (neutered male) we meet occasionally IS a humper but he seems to do it in fun and my boy simply says, hey, cut it out, the other dog doesn't (his owner does try) and along they go, play, chase, jump, hump.
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