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  #1  
Old November 3rd, 2005, 08:38 PM
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Question What should I do??

I have a 25 gal tank, with an AC 50 (was 200) filter and lots of live plants. My tank is stocked to the max but I'm worried about my danios, I only have two. They seem fine except that they aren't growing, they are eating and acting normally now. I think I made a mistake when I purchased my two rainbow sharks and 1 krib. I would prefer another krib and more danios. Would a pet store take the sharks or would I have to find someone else to take them? I would never just flush them, that's not an option. Or will my danios be fine just the two of them? Any advice would be welcome as I really enjoy my tank.

Tank residents: 2 zebra danios
5 tiger barbs
2 rainbow sharks
1 female kribensis
2 flying foxes
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Old November 4th, 2005, 08:40 PM
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Hi there,
first of all, rainbow sharks are highly aggressive towards
their own species. When yours get larger, they will kill each other.
You should never keep more than 1 rainbow or red tail black shark
in a tank together less than 100 gallons.
The flying foxes are also closely related to rainbow sharks,
and again do not tolerate their own kind, or any other conspecifics (related species, like red tail black sharks and rainbow sharks).
Also, both flying foxes and rainbow sharks grow to about 6 inches, and the recommended tank size for a single one of these is 29g by itself.
You can return the sharks and the foxes to the pet store for store credit, or trade them for more danios.
Kribensis are also very aggressive fish, but keeping one alone should be fine,
and danios are very fast.
What I would do is,
return the sharks and flying foxes to the pet store
get 6 more danios
get 3 more Tiger barbs
Then you would be fully stocked with those fish and
the kribensis

Heres a great website for information on fish, on everything related to fish, with very knowledegable members and lots of great info:
http://www.fishprofiles.com

Heres some info on Rainbow Sharks and Flying Foxes:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/rainbow.xml

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/pr.../flyingfox.xml

Last edited by Sneaky; November 4th, 2005 at 08:49 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2005, 12:11 AM
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Thanx sneakypete. I'm not sure about returning both foxes, I really like them and they were not aggressive towards each other until the sharks came into the tank. I may return the sharks or trade them in for more danios. I want a male krib because my fish book says they will breed in a community tank, and it indicated they would be happier with another fish of the same species. Right now she thinks she's a barb. She's very gorgeous but the barbs just don't seem to be all that interested in her. I saw in your reply to the filter question that you do not recommend carbon unless it's needed. Have you always had success with that? I would like to take the carbon out of my AC 50 and just run the zeo-lite and peat that I've got in there now. Will this upset the balance if I do it before the next water change? I also notced you use house-plant fertilizer, do you find it to be better than the kind of spikes made for fish tanks? I always seem to be low in iron and other nutrients, and yet I don't change the water as often as I have read I should. I will definitely be checking out those links you sent. Thank-you again.
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Old November 8th, 2005, 02:21 AM
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Hi there,
well, you dont have to return both of the foxes, they just
cant be kept together in a tank, or when they are older they
will probably kill each other lol
Are they actually flying foxes or are they siamese algae eaters?
Often these fish are mislabelled.
About breeding kribs in a community tank- yes they will breed in a
community tank, but they will also start killing other fish.
My sister had a pair of those and when they laid their eggs,
they killed 3 cory catfish, 1 angelfish, 1 blue ram, and 3 dwarf gouramis!
They are not really suitable for breeding in a community tank.
If you do decide to try it, I wish you luck, as they are a very aggressive and terrritorial fish when breeding. Very much like their larger african brethren. (Kribensis are an african cichlid).
I havent really found either the fish tank spikes to be better than the houseplant ones or vice versa. I use the Jobes because they are about 3.00 for 25 or 50 of them where as the nutrafin plant spikes are 3 for 7.00.
I also lack iron in my tanks, and the houseplant ones have a good iron content.
I have tried the nutrafin plant spikes, and they worked just as well, so really i think it is a personal preference, or what you can afford.
yes, you could remove the carbon from your tank. Zeolite is a superior product anyway, but it might also remove nutrients from the water, im not sure I dont know much about it.

Wondering again about your flying foxes, when I bought my Siamese Algae Eaters, they were listed as "Flying Foxes" and I often see them sold as much. Heres some pics of the most often confused fish sold as SAE's or Flying Foxes:
True Siamese Algae Eater (species name crosscheilus siamensis)
I bought two of these labelled in the pet store as flying foxes.





Stone Lapping Barb (species name garra cambodgiensis)
I also purchased this guy, also labelled in the pet store
as a flying fox.




True Flying Fox (species name epalzeorhynchus kallopterus)
(this is not my fish)




Chinese Algae Eater- often sold as a Siamese Algae Eater or a Flying Fox
(species name gyrincheilos aymoneiri)

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Old November 8th, 2005, 01:39 PM
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While I have no pictures to post, I am sure one of my foxes is a true flying fox, the other I did wonder about as it does look a little more like the stone lapping barb. It still eats algae and that's the main reason why I bought them. It drives me crazy that a book will say put these fish together, the pet store will say another thing and then I'm here stuck with the wrong fish. The guy at the pet store where I bought the sharks was supposed to be knowledgeable about which fish to put together. On the profiles sight, I saw that the sharks could go with bettas and other fish. I am looking to get a 10 gal or bigger tank for my betta and was trying to figure out which tankmates to add. I will continue to do research on this before I run out and buy anything, but I may put one of the sharks with him. Any recommendations you would like to make will be welcome. Although I cannot afford to buy an huge tank, I will be looking out for deals. I have space for up to 30 gal in a long tank, I also like the hex and panorama tanks but they are so costly. Thank-you again for your advice, it is very welcome as I am still a newbie fish keeper. I got the tank around Valentines 2005, so it is still fairly new.
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Old November 8th, 2005, 04:58 PM
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Yes, I sure do know the misunderstandings that pet stores can
create for new aquariasts!
My first tank was my 25g. I set it up with no knowledge
of the cycle- plunked a whole bunch of fish in, not knowing
about compatibility or anything. After most of them died,
i came to the internet to do research.
My first mistake was buying Bala Sharks. The guy at the pet
store said "Sure Bala Sharks are perfect for a 25g tank",
but he didnt inform me that said fish grow to over a foot in length,
and grow rapidly as well!
My experience has been, listen to the pet store people, but always
take what they say with a grain of salt. Most of what they say is not
true and only said because they want you to spend money! Best thing to
do is browse the store, write down what you like, then come to the
internet and research the fish first. It will save you stress and worry,
will help your fish get along better, and you wont have to take
fish back to the store! :-D .Thats what I do anyway. I hate having to
sell back my pets to the pet store because of their mistakes selling them to me!
Flying foxes and Stone Lapping Barbs dont really eat algae.
Stone Lapping Barbs appear to be eating algae, however, their primary
diet is the eating of microscopic organisms that live in algae and on plants,
and on the glass surface. They actually leave the algae intact while sucking off any small critters. They are very peaceful, and both these and siamese algae eaters can be kept in groups- but this requires a very large tank.
Flying foxes may eat some algae when young, but they really are not an algae eater- they are an omnivore. Once they reach a good size- 2-3 inches, they will eat algae only if they are terribly hungry, and mostly will want meaty foods like flakes and pellets.
The only good algae eater of all 4 I pictured is the Siamese algae eater.
All of these fish get very large- 6 inches or more, and really need at least 55 gallons of space. The chinese algae eater- mostly commonly sold to beginners as a great "algae eater" is a horrible purchase for most beginners. Not only do they not eat algae after they grow past the 2-3 inch mark, but they grow to 10-12 inches and become very aggressive, as well as eating other fish as their priority!
Anyway, if you really want some good advice on fish, I have found that the website :

http://www.fishprofiles.com

Has been exceptional in their assistance, their knowledge base, as well
as having profiles on individual fish and many other helpful information.
Check it out, they have about 4000 members, so if you need help, you can definetly get it there!
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Old November 13th, 2005, 11:38 AM
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Hi again, I want to be sure that I can take the carbon out of the filter. What do I replace it with? I use the foam, and peat wrapped in filter floss, and biomax, the zeolite is supposed to remove ammonia if there is any, I didn't think it removed anything else. As well how much peat for 25 gallons and how often should I replace the peat? The fish do seem much healthier with the peat, I tried running without it but my pH kept spiking and I was testing negative for ammonia and nitrites/nitrates. When I put the peat back in everything settled down again. Thanks for yor advice, I always appreciate advice given with good intentions.
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Old November 13th, 2005, 07:57 PM
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zeolite, as well as carbon, will remove nutrients from the tank.
The best thing to replace it with would be filter floss.
For a 25g tank, you shouldnt need to use much peat,
maybe 1/4 of a pound at most.
This should keep your water nice and soft.
Espescially great if you have soft water fish.
Interestingly, all your fish are fish that dont really require
soft water.
Tiger barbs prefer a ph of around 7.0, with a hardness
of around 120 ppm or so.
same as the rainbow sharks and flying foxes.
Kribensis, are rift lake african cichlids,
and prefer a ph of 8.0-8.5 and a hardness in the area
of 250ppm or up.
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Old November 13th, 2005, 10:05 PM
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The reason for the peat was because I was having a hard time keeping the pH close to neutral, and yet there was no ammonia to account for the pH to go up. I tried kH buffering but that wasn't successful, so I went back to the peat.The books I was using for advice recommended soft acid water for the barbs, pH 7. Honestly, all the fish were unhappy looking without the peat in the filter. I don't think I have a 1/4 pound in there, maybe a couple of tablespoons at the most. I wrap the peat in the floss then stuff it in a filter bag. It seems to work really well. Thank-you for your response.
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Last edited by gottahavepets; November 13th, 2005 at 10:07 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2005, 08:58 PM
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Hi there,
ammonia has absolutely nothing to do with the PH of water.
Ph is caused by the number of or lack of calcium ions and other minerals in the water. A PH Of 7 would not be considered soft and acidic, but is neutral.
A ph of 5.0-6.9 would be considered acidic. A Ph of 7.5-8.5 would be considered alkaline.
Hardness is in some ways related, but isnt defined by ph.
For example, you can have a ph of 7.0 neutral, with a general hardness ranging from 0 (no calcium ions in the water), to over 300 ppm (lots of calcium ions).
KH Buffering is particularly helpful when raising PH, but does little in the way of stabilizing low PH, except to prevent fluctuations.
Peat is, in my opinion, the best, most natural way to lower ph.
In my tanks I use 1 pound of peat granules in each of my 2 canister filters,
as I have very hard well water. My water out of the tap is ph 7.4, not very high at all, but has a hardness of about 240 ppm dissolved calcium ions.
The 2 pounds of peat I use changes the water to a ph of 6.6 and a hardness of less than 60 ppm. As I have discus and tetras, this is essential for their health to have soft water, and even then they would appreciate 0ppm, however, I dont think thats possible without reverse osmosis filtration of my water.
Interestingly, I wonder why your fish would seem unhappy in a higher ph.
All of your fish would be fine in water of ph 7.0 up to 8.0, espescially the Kribensis. Tiger barbs are very hardy fish and will tolerate almost any water conditions.
I would suspect there is another reason the fish were unhappy, and suspect it may be some type of mineral or chemical in the water that the peat must neutralize.
Have you tested your tank for ammonia, nitrItes and nitrAtes?
Have you tested the water coming direct out of the tap?
Do you use water conditioner when changing the water and vaccuum the gravel?
I cant understand why your fish would be unhappy.
Not to say I am recommending removing the peat from your filter,
cuz if its working and your fish are doing good, why change it right?
Anyway, strange that they would be unhappy.
-Koran.
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Old November 16th, 2005, 04:15 PM
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I tested all the levels two days ago and everything was in normal ranges, no ammonia, very little nitrites, I only test one of those, pH 7.6 I think. I will continue to use the peat at the dose I am using, I will only adjust if the water becomes too dark, the water has gone back to clear since removing the carbon and zeo-lite, and the fish are fine, maybe now my plants will grow! They are all smaller than they should be and I do add ferts occasionally, I will be testing the iron more often now though. I'm not sure what could be in the water that the peat has to neutralize but the aqua-plus doesn't. I have tested my tap water and it comes out at 7.8, I have a counter-top purifier that removes impurities, adds some minerals and changes the pH to about 8. I've checked various sources abot the needs of kribs and they all recommend pH 5.5-8, and I also checked the rest of my fishes needs and I won't worry too much as long as the pH doesn't go over 8. The problem bfore was the pH creeping up after I would lower it. I think the tank is doing well now and I'm looking at different plants for it. Possibly changing some of the fish, I'm not sure.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 04:27 PM
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See, that could be why your fish are unhappy!
Your tank hasnt finished cycling.
As long as their is Nitrites in the tank, the cycle is not
complete, and this will irritate the fish.
Aquaplus isnt really a very good quality water conditioner.
I do not believe it removes any heavy metals from the water
at all.
I use Prime- 1 capful per 50g, one bottle conditions 1000 gallons
of water. So on your 29g tank, considering you probably change out
about 5 gallons during a water change, a bottle of prime would last you,
200 water changes, if you do a water change every week, would last
you about 3 years. Prime removes chlorine and chloramine, detoxifies
ammonia and nitrItes, removes impurities, removes heavy metals,
and adds stress coat to the water.
You should consider getting a NitrAtes test, as once your tank
finishes cycling, there should never be any ammonia or nitrItes to
test. Cycled tanks require only that 1 test, NitrAtes.
Anyway, glad to hear your tank is doing good and the fish are happy!
Always great when things are going good.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 05:34 PM
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Hi Sneaky, because the tank is a planted aquarium, I was expecting there to be nitrates, is this not so? I will get a nitrates test right away and I still have a whole bottle of Aqua Plus that I haven't opened! Maybe I can trade it at the same time I trade the sharks in. I'm going to get corys, can you recommend a type that can be in the same tank as the tiger barbs? The profiles said pandas but I don't think so, anyway they'll be going in with the Betta. I want corys that won't get too big but are pretty to look at. Thanks again fish guru.
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Old November 18th, 2005, 02:28 AM
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Hello again,
In a planted tank that is fully cycled there will be NitrAtes.
There will not however be any NitrItes.
These are 2 different forms of Nitrogen. NitrItes is caused by
the first stage of the nitrogen cycle, the breaking down of ammonia.
Further on in the nitrogen cycle, the ammonia will be completely
broken down at such a fast rate, you will no longer find it on your tests.
Following this stage the NitrItes build up, and are broken down into NitrAtes.
Eventually this too will become so balanced, that the NitrItes will be broken
down as they are occurring, and no longer will NitrItes show on your
test. After this your tank will be cycled, meaning it is no longer
producing harmful substances, and that the nitrobacter bacteria is
transforming ammonia rapidly into the end product NitrAtes, which are
what feeds your plants mostly.
Im not suggesting you not use your Aquaplus, just when its finished you
may want to replace it with Prime, as a more economical higher quality
product for your fish keeping :-D
Makes sense for people like me who are penny pinchers, and prefer
a more concentrated higher quality product that lasts longer and works
better!
Anyway,
as for Corys, Panda Corys would work just fine.
In your tank you could go with several different types of
medium-smaller corys.
Heres some active, attractive, fun corys I know of that are small:
Trilineatus (Also called Jullii Corys in stores, even though they are not the right species) - ~2 inches
Panda 1.5-2 inches
Aggassizi or Ambiacus ~2 inches
Dwarf/Salt and Pepper/ Dainty Corys, Corydoras Hasbrosus 3/4 - 1 inch for males, up to 1.5 inches for females. Totally awesome active dwarf cory.
Pygmy Cory Corydoras Pygmaeus 3/4-1 inch. The smallest cory, Very active and playful as well.
For any cory you could go with 6 of them, for the 2 dwarf species, as many as 8 Hasbrosus would = 6 of the others, and for the tiny pygmys, 10 would be = to 6 of the larger corys.
The biggest corys, the ones to avoid are:
Peppered / Paleatus ~3 inches +
Bronze 3-3.5 Inches
Albino 3-3.5 inches
Metae / Bandit 3-3.5 inches
Green Brochis Splendens Cory- 4 inches++++

Edited: Forgot to give you the link to a couple good catfish sites if you
wanna do some more looking at cory types you might like:

http://www.corydorasworld.com/

http://www.planetcatfish.com/
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Old November 18th, 2005, 10:47 AM
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I was doing some tank maintenance last night, I think I had too much gravel in the tank because it used to have a UGF. So I was scooping gravel out prior to doing a water change when I discovered that I had left a piece of the under gravel filter in the tank. I slipped it out as careful as I could and could not believe the gunk I found under there! So I sucked out as much of that as I could without taking more water than I usually do (5 gal). This morning the tank is looking clearer than last night. How soon should I clean/replace the sponge from the filter? I was going to use that sponge when I get the new smaller tank to speed up the cycle process, but it will be so gunky, I'm sure some of that must be toxic, although as I had said all the fish seemed fine. Should I pop a carbon back in for a little while or just leave it. The tank was fully cycled before and this nitrite reading came out of nowhere, the last few readings were zero.
Sneaky, thanks for the cory lists and links, I will definitely check them out. Pandas may win as I am too impatient to wait for the new tank. Two rainbow sharks = how many pandas or similar size? Would it be 5 or six or less? Thanks in advance. I ask you because I'm too lazy to do the math. I may look it up on my own anyway! Thanks again Fish Guru!
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Old November 19th, 2005, 02:46 AM
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Well, in a planted tank, the gravel should probably be around
3-4 inches.
I would leave the sponge thats in there for a bit to compensate.
Maybe in 3-4 days you can remove it and put a new one in.

Undergravel filters are nasty, nasty things

When considering size of the rainbow sharks- if you take their adult
size, that is 12 inches.

I think you should 6 of whatever type of cory you choose.
They do best in large groups.
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Old November 20th, 2005, 01:23 PM
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I think I have the right amount of gravel, it is sloped up to the back, which is where the swords with their larger root systems are. UGF's sure are nasty, I didn't like it in the 2g the kids were given for X-mas last year, I didn't like it in my 25g. A friend of mine is really keen on having one in her tank though, so I'll give her my old one with thanks.

I am thinking about also trading in the SAE or the Flying fox, I have determined the one I thought was not a fox is a SAE. Although they were fine with each other until I put the sharks in. If I did so I could get more danios to fill out that school again, although I am leaning more towards another type of rasbora that may get along ok with the barbs, I can't remember the name of it though, it is long, silver with a black stripe I think.

Have you seen Finding Nemo? My krib was acting like the fish that thought her reflection was her sister last night. I have never seen her do this. I have been wondering about her because her belly has always been very pink and slightly extended. She wouldn't be wanting to mate would she? I did have more kribs at one time but they died off until there was just the one left. She tries to get the barbs to notice her but they just aren't interested.LOL. Although I realize that if I got a male krib and they decided to breed, they would kill all the other fish in the tank. This is the only thing holding me back from getting her a BF right now.
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Old November 20th, 2005, 06:56 PM
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I am thinking about also trading in the SAE or the Flying fox, I have determined the one I thought was not a fox is a SAE

Well, the difference in these two fish is great
one, the flying fox, is a omnivore and does not eat algae past a certain stage in its life. The SAE is possibly THE BEST algae eater in the world. If you have algae in your tank at all, keep the SAE. Plus Flying Foxes can become very aggressive with age. SAE's are always peaceful.
I would keep the SAE and remove the rainbow sharks and flying fox.
SAE's may not seem so attractive when young, but become gorgeous when adults, and best of all because you have a small tank, SAE's stay slightly smaller than Flying Foxes or Rainbow/Red Tail black sharks.



She wouldn't be wanting to mate would she?

Well, yes, yes she would. However, as you are aware, breeding kribs will kill off your other fish, and if they dont agree with each other, you could have 1 or both kribs dead as well. I would just let her be, she will go through what i call "breeding mode", probably every 3-6 weeks as per a normal female. With no male present she wont get aggressive or territorial as she would if a male were present. She will be better off for your tank, to stay alone, and will be perfectly fine that way. After all, even in the wild not every fish finds a mate.

If I did so I could get more danios to fill out that school again, although I am leaning more towards another type of rasbora that may get along ok with the barbs, I can't remember the name of it though, it is long, silver with a black stripe I think.

There are only 2 types of Rasbora I can think of off hand that meet your description, one is the Scissortail Rasbora, silver with a black stripe and a "scissors" tail with a black marking and yellow marking on each tail tip. This fish grows to 6 inches and is totally not suited to your tank.
There is also a Brilliant Rasbora, silvery with a red tail and black stripe, this fish is about 2.5 inches long, and would be more suited to your tank.
I see by looking that there is also another rasbora called a Lined Rasbora, silver with a black stripe that grows to about 2 inches.
Heres a link, where you can look and see which fish you are talking about.
Either way, if you want to add more fish, some fish will have to go. Whats your current stocking at now? The tank is 29g right? EDIT: Ok I see you have a 25g, and the tank occupants are:

Tank residents: 2 zebra danios
5 tiger barbs
2 rainbow sharks
1 female kribensis
2 flying foxes


So, If You Take the Rainbow Sharks and Flying Fox Out You have this:

2 Zebra Danios 2x2 inches
5 Tiger Barbs 5x2 inches
1 Female Krib 3 inches
1 SAE 6 inches

Now if we go by the Inch rule, you have 23 inches in fish right there.
Because I am not partial to the inch rule, I allow for more flexibility.
I would say you have a Maximum allowable excess of 5 inches about
the inch rule, so 30 inches of fish would be fine in 25g.
That gives you about 7 inches to work with roughly.
Personally What I would do is either remove the Zebra Danios and the SAE as well,
as these fish really do need larger tanks.
Then you would have more space.
If you have Algae, either Ottos or a Bristlenose Pleco or Rubbernose Pleco would be a better choice. None are as active nor as large as the SAE.
Then you could add 3 more tiger barbs, and a school of 6 of the smaller rasboras.
That would work.
Or, if you want to keep the ZD's and SAE,
then I would just round out your schools, go with 3 more tiger barbs,
and add 4 more Zebra Danios or Leopard Danios or White Leopard or White Zebra
Danios (all same species).







http://www.elmersaquarium.com/10rasbora.htm

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  #19  
Old November 20th, 2005, 09:59 PM
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Thank you for your reply, it was very detailed and thoughtful, my favorites now has a lot of fish-related links in it. And I do use them.
The zebras will be going in to the 15g when I get it to cycle the tank. I have had them for almost a year now and they only live for 2. The SAE I think I will keep. The tank is long and he does seem to be fine.The longer I have had him, the more I like him over the fox, and yet, based on the advice of the fish book I had I was desperate to have two foxes. It is the fox that is aggressive, as well as the sharks. I am trying to find out if the store I got them from will buy them back, or let me trade them in for different fish. Could it be the smallish tank size that makes the sharks so aggressive with the other fish? Although they do leave the krib alone. She tells all the fish off when they bother her.
It was the brilliant rasbora that I was thinking of. I was looking at them because the top level of my tank is pretty empty right now, although all the fish seem to go all over the tank. I was very interested by the barb community tank in the link you sent, I will study it some more as I have some time before I plan to get more fish. I may wind up doing something totally different. Though they are frisky fish, I do find the antics of the tiger barbs to be so entertaining.
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Old November 21st, 2005, 05:51 PM
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Could be the small tank adding to the aggression.
Recommended is usually a 29g tank for a single rainbow or red tail shark or flying fox.
SAE's are usually recommended for a 55g tank or larger because they are schooling fish. However I think it will be fine there where it is.
I see you are getting a 15g tank too?
Whats the plans for that? You could always rearrange your setup by moving fish around, depending on what your plans are.
Keep in mind you could breed Kribensis in a 15g tank with a school of tiger barbs....
I can understand your not wanting to get rid of the danios LOL
I have 2 leopard danios I have had now for like 3 years, cycled every tank I have with em, and I couldnt bear to part with them.
I think zebra/leopard danios can usually live up to 5 years.
I would say 3 years is like the minimum life span.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 10:04 AM
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Hi Sneaky, I wound up getting a 10gal tank, the 15 just wouldn't fit where I was planning on putting it. I have it set up with live plants and the filter is running. I need to get a small heater for it and more plants for both tanks. I used some water from the bigger tank and some decorations and filter media to help with the cycling process. This way too when the danios go in the water will be much closer to what they're used to. I am planning on Harlequin rasboras and panda corys for this tank, as well as my betta. I am wondering in what order I should introduce them to the tank, as the betta will be the most aggressive. Should it be pandas, harlies then betta? After the danios have cycled the tank of course. Which I'm not sure how long that will take. I want all the fish in by X-mas as it is my present (oops!) In the 25g I haven't pinned down exactly what I want to do once I get rid of the sharks and fox. I am thinking about rounding out the schools for the time being, 6 barbs, 6 danios, maybe a few ottos or corys if possible. The lady who sold me the 10g said the corys don't count as much in the inch/gallon ratio because they are cleaner fish and help to reduce the waste in the tank. Do you believe this is true? They still consume oxygen, although that mey not make a difference in a planted tank. But they also must produce some waste as well. I'd like to believe her because then I would put them in the 25g as well as the ottos and other fish. I want to much! My dream is to have as many tanks as I need to hold all the fish I like. My goodness that was long, sorry. But thanks for your interest and advice!
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 06:18 PM
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[QUOTE=gottahavepets]Hi Sneaky, I wound up getting a 10gal tank, the 15 just wouldn't fit where I was planning on putting it. [/QOUTE]

a 10G tank is a perfectly good one!

[qoute]The lady who sold me the 10g said the corys don't count as much in the inch/gallon ratio because they are cleaner fish and help to reduce the waste in the tank. Do you believe this is true?[/qoute]

No, this is not True. They are not really "cleaner fish", as they do not
eat other fishes waste, though some people think so, and they do eat, breathe, and poop just as much as any other fish! In Fact, most bottom
feeders poop twice as much as any other fish! However, Panda Corys are
quite small, and are one of the few types of corys recommended for 10g tanks. You have made a very good choice.
For your 10g tank, after the danios cycle it, which can take from 21-60 days depending on how much you change the water (less changes= faster cycle, but also = more stressed out fish). A Bottle of Prime would be great for you during this, as it detoxifies ammonia and nitrites, but doesnt remove them, allowing the cycle to continue without as many water changes, and without as much stress for the fish.

Yes, you should add the betta last. Corys or Rasboras first, in whichever order. I would do 6 Panda Corys and 6-8 Harlequin Rasbora. Add only 6 fish at a time, and at least 1 week apart to prevent ammonia spikes.
You could even add 3 panda corys and 3 harles to start, if you wanted to, or add 6 of one and then 6 of the other.
Add the Betta last, he will feel out of place and wont have other fish coming into his territory, he will be going into a new territory.

In your 25 tank, once you take out the sharks and fox, you will have quite a bit more room to work with. I forget, its a 25g long tank right, not a tall one?
If it is long, you can stretch the stocking levels more than if it is tall.
Stocking levels are not just based on inches per gallon, but also on square inches of tank space.
Example, a 10g tank, and a 15g tall tank, which have the same size base,
and therefore essentially allow for the same stocking.
a 25g tall tank is only 18 inches long, where its long equivalent is 24 inches I believe. So thats 18x12=216 inches of floor space or 24x12= 288 inches of floor space, which is a great deal more.
Tall tanks are much more difficult to stock because of their height.
My 25g is a tall tank. Has proven to have its share of difficulties, but currently is occupied by 2 Angelfish (breeding pair), 1 stone lapping barb, 9 corydoras aeneus (bronze+albino), and 5 ottos which are destined for the 10gallon tank later on (10g tank infested with worms right now ugh).

I still havent decided what to do with my 10g tank.
Its current occupants are 2 guppies and 6 platys, and 4 corydoras hasbrosus, and a rubbernose pleco. I have lost almost all the guppies and platys now to a parasite called Camallanus Worms. Very difficult to get rid of.
I have decided to euthanize the remaining guppies and platies this weekend
:-(
I also have a Paradise fish that is also infested, and is in a fish bowl fighting a losing battle. If it shows no signs of improvement by the weekend I will have no choice but to put it down as well.
Which reminds me, when you go to purchase fish, perhaps purchase a bottle of anti-parasitic food, and feed the fish strictly on this for the first 4 days.
This will help cure any parasites internally before they can pass on to other fish. Watch for Camallanus worms in pet store tanks- they resemble a red thread poking out of the fishes anus. If you see these, dont buy any fish from that tank, or any from connecting tanks (if they share water)
Second time Ive lost all my fish in my 10g tank because of these worms in 2 years.
Well good luck, and keep me posted, I sure enjoy chatting with you!
Im glad you find my information useful! :-D

Last edited by Sneaky; November 22nd, 2005 at 06:24 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 03:55 PM
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Hi Sneaky, I tried to reply yesterday but I was having loin problems. I know euthanizing fish is not fun. I have had to do it. More when we had the 2g set up. I had New Tank Syndrome. Rushed the set-up, added too many fish too close together. Yikes!
Today the danios have moved in to the 10g to start the cycling process. So far they seem happy. I will have to keep an eye on the amount of sunlight this tank gets. Although it will be easy to fix once I get the roman shade up in the kitchen. I have the water conditions as close to the other tank as possible. I will do my best not to rush this tank. I will add the harlies in 3 wks, then the ottos in 4 and finally the pandas in 5 and Buddy in 6. This way I'll have the routine down before the pandas go in. I am not sure yet where the sharks and fox are going, or when they are going. LFS said they may or may not take them, some may trade a little others have said not. In the spring I think I'll change the gravel for more natural stuff. It looks great in the 10g!
I really enjoy chatting with you as well. And I will continue to keep you posted. On the FP site I am luvmykrib, I may say hi if I run into you over there. You're So_Very_Sneaky right? What a fish list you have. My hubby would go live elsewhere as we don't have enough room! Oh wait, he already does part-time now! Will keep posting the progress and anymore questions I may have.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 09:47 PM
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[qoute]I will add the harlies in 3 wks, then the ottos in 4 and finally the pandas in 5 and Buddy in 6.[/qoute]

Ottos are highly sensitive little catfish. They have a huge mortality rate, due to improper addition of them to tanks. Ottos should only be added a tank after sufficient time has passed to prepare enough algae for them. I would add the ottos way after all the other fish,
and only then when you have substantial algae to support them. If not, most or all of them will die of starvation. Also, when adding them to a tank, you should always do a super long acclimation. I do this for sensitive fish as well, or any that are expensive or seem weak. Open the bag when you get home, float in the aquarium. After about 30 minutes, open the bag. Add a couple ounces of tank water to the bag (shot glasses work great for this).
Wait another 15 minutes, add 2-3 more ounces to the bag. Wait another 15 minutes. Remove approx. 6 ounces from the bag (do not pour in tank).
Add 6 more ounces of tank water at this time. Wait another 15 minutes, then repeat removal of water and replacement with tank water. Wait 15 more minutes and repeat one more time.
Then finally net the fish gently from the bag and let them swim from the net into the tank.
This will help ensure as many ottos as possible survive.
I recently bought 5 ottos for my 10g tank, and followed this, and 4 of the 5
at least have survived (unsure of the other one, only have seen 4 at one time, other may still be alive just may not see it).
Thats amazing success with otos! A couple years ago I bought 8 ottos and only 1 survived, despite careful acclimation. Not enough algae in my tank I suspect and they starved or became ill from competing with the others for food.

Also, dont just wait "3 weeks" to add fish. Keep liquid drip tests on hand for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrAtes.
Once the ammonia and nitrItes are completely Zero, and nitrAtes are present on your tests, then it is safe to add fish.
If you want to try to speed the cycling process, using gravel from a seeded tank (placed in a nylon, or cheesecloth bag if colors are different), will help to speed it up.Adding water from a cycled tank will really do nothing, except to add ammonia products to the new water. No live bacteria is present in the tank water.
Also 2 products can assist. One is called Stresszyme- comes in a yellow bottle, and it has live bacteria in it to assist in building your bacteria colonies. The other product is Biospira- if you could find this in a store where you are, it will complete cycle a tank in just a few days! I have not been able to find it here, and am unsure of its availability in the rest of canada. However, it would definetly be worthwhile to look for it!
Hagen also makes a product called "New Improved Cycle", unfortunately, due to their lack of refridgeration, and sitting on shelves, in warehouses for years, you are never guaranteed a bottle of this will still be live bacteria.
I would avoid it, and stick to stresszyme, or biospira if you can find it.
Good Luck my friend!
Keep me posted on how you progress!
Also, I wanted to mention, in the spring, I will have some quantity of
aquarium plant babies and clippings available. I recently shipped some all the way to New Brunswick successfully! Shipping was quite hefty, but my prices are low and plants are good, and I can ship quite a quantity for the same price, if you are interested in buying some plants in the spring think about it and let me know. I am sort of taking a list down of people who want to trade or buy.
-Koran .
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Old November 25th, 2005, 10:27 AM
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I was planning on testing the tank bfore getting the harlies. I added the water from the old tank to jumpstart the peat, for the bacteria I moved two ornaments, DW with JF and the biomax insert from the 25g tank into the new tank. I have used 'Cycle' with each tank and it has seemed to work fine. I will look for the other products, but as with the aqua-plus, I have a new bottle that hasn't been used too much. They were on sale and I'm a sucker for a sale price.
The danios are in the tank now, they've been in since Wednesday. One of them has a wound on it's side that seems to be healing, I've been adding Stress-Coat and Res-Q at night to help with healing. The other danio has been chasing it around but it has managed to find some hiding spots. Maybe I should get a breeding trap for the wounded one until it heals. I will not put it back in the other tank with a wound, the barbs would be after it for sure.
If i fed algae wafers before adding ottos, would some of the algae grow? Although the ornaments I transferred also came with algae. I suppose it may die before they move in. I will remember to acclimate them slow and be sure there is algae before they are purchased. Because it is planted, I have added fertilizers to the tank. Will this speed up or slow down cycling, and algae growth? So many questions.

I would definitely be interested in some plants, I can only get low-light plants, although the light in the 10g is almost 2 wpg. I am interested in trying glosso and some hairgrass. I could PM my shipping address.You can add my name to the list.
-Colleen-
Stony Plain AB
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Old November 27th, 2005, 08:14 PM
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If i fed algae wafers before adding ottos, would some of the algae grow? Although the ornaments I transferred also came with algae. I suppose it may die before they move in. I will remember to acclimate them slow and be sure there is algae before they are purchased. Because it is planted, I have added fertilizers to the tank. Will this speed up or slow down cycling, and algae growth? So many questions.
I would definitely be interested in some plants, I can only get low-light plants, although the light in the 10g is almost 2 wpg.



No, algae wafers are freeze dried and therefore the algae is not alive.
It will not cause algae to grow.
The only thing that will cause algae is good light and nutrients.
Sounds like at 2wpg, wont be long before you have some algae,
all that matters is just time, it will happen lol

Fertilizing the plants - wont really affect your cycle. Good to boost them when first planted of course. Dont overfertilize at first as you dont want to end up with black beard or staghorn algae.

As for the plants, please send me a pm titled plants, and in the spring when they are ready, i will pm you with a list of available plants and stuff.
:-)
Do you have any pics of your tanks at all?

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Old November 27th, 2005, 08:27 PM
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Hi Sneaky, I do not have any pictures of my tank. My boys have managed to break every camera I have owned and I am too scared to get a new one! I am hoping to get a digital soon tho so I can post some pics.
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Old December 5th, 2005, 05:27 PM
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15g tank up and running

The 15g is up and running, nitrite and ammonia are at 0 and I just introduced 2 ottos. I did it slow over an hour and they seem to like it fine.
I took the 2 sharks and fox out of the 25g and returned them to the store they came from. I introduced 4 ottos to this tank as well. The krib is being a bully though and nipping at the poor little things. Sneaky, you mentioned once the tiger barbs and the krib could all go in the 15g, is this true? I may move them to save the ottos from big mean Gorgeous,(may call her George if she doesn't behave). Then I would have the harlies and pandas and betta in the 25g with the danios and ottos. What do you think of that? I hope she settles down or I may have to catch the ottos and move them for now. I tried catching her and couldn't! I was going to try rearranging the tank then reintroducing her. It worked when I put the sharks in. I did lights out, moved everything then lights on again.
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Old December 5th, 2005, 06:28 PM
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Hi there,
Yes, the tiger barbs and Krib would work
out just fine in the 15g by themselves.
Then you could have the more peaceful fish in
a tank by themselves.
Kribs are very extremely aggressive, sometimes
without warning, and she probably sees the ottos
as a threat to her territory.
Ottos are so cute! I also got some recently, got 5,
4 survived, pretty decent survival rate. Trying out a
new store.

I recently bought myself some new fish, 3 Red Eye Tetras.
They are so gorgeous! Heres a pic, not mine but some you
can see:

I wanted 6 but Petcetera only had 4 and one didnt look so good.
Had them since friday they are so cute, little, only 1/2 inch or so,
and so sassy!
Schooling with the little buenos aires tetras I got about a week and a half ago:


I have cleared my guppies and platies out of my 10g and am wanting to do something different, but something compatible with my Hasbrosus Corys and Rubbernose Pleco.
I am thinking I am going to do Beckfords Pencilfish. Heres what they look like, little guys, only grow to about 1 inch



I am glad things are going well in your tank, and hope things work out in
my little tank. After so many problems caused by Guppies, it would be nice
for something to go right in that tank.
Well, keep me posted!
-Your friend,
Koran.
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Old December 5th, 2005, 07:15 PM
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Love those pics of the new fish! The beckford's pencil fish are pretty as well. They almost remind me of white clouds but with more colour.I only had problems with the guppies I had, but a lot of that was the tank (2g) and new tank (owner) syndrom. At least it's curable!

I think I will move the barbs and the krib because they do better together. The barbs are nipping a bit as well. Now I just have to catch everybody. They should do alright if the tank goes through a mini cycle right? I think it will because of the higher fish load.It's too bad I was hoping for a certain feel with the smaller fish in the 15g. But the fish have other ideas. Right now the ottos are all clinging to the glass or the amazon sword and keeping out of sight.So everyone seems to be getting along. We'll see how they're doing when I get back home. Good thing I have water waiting.

That danio that had a bite in it's side is healing slowly. I will get a trap for it so it can continue to get better.I wound up moving the other danio back into the 25g tank because it kept chasing the wounded one. It never rains, it pours, or snows a lot as it is doing here!
I will keep you posted, I'm hoping to get some pictures soon, I may borrow my friends digital camera then I could post some pics.
-Colleen-
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