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  #31  
Old October 28th, 2005, 04:45 PM
StinkyT StinkyT is offline
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All this time we've been discussing wildlife and cars being a danger to the cats. What about the pissed off people who leave out poison to keep cats off of thier properties?
  #32  
Old October 28th, 2005, 06:11 PM
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Well, I can see both sides of it. On the one hand, an indoor only cat is protected from so many perils--dogs, wild animals, other cats, cruel people, disease. On the other hand, wouldn't humans also be much safer if we never went outside? But even someone who doesn't have to go out is unlikely to be convinced that they should stay indoors all day every day to cut down on the risk of being mugged, getting in a car wreck, etc.

My family has always had indoor-outdoor cats and they do enjoy things that inside cats never do . . . hiding in the leaves, rolling on concrete, eating real live catnip plants in the sun. Some of them have had outdoor problems--Dr. Who, despite being neutered, got in a lot of fights and eventually went blind in one eyes when he was scratched. When he got old, he would become disoriented trying to cross the street and eventually he had to be put to sleep. But he could never have become an indoor cat . . . It wasn't in his nature. (Once we had to keep him indoors for a month for some medical reason--probably his eye. My God, it was horrible. You could feel the resentment emanating from him and all he did all day was lurk by the door, waiting to try to escape.)

Some indoor-outdoor cats are more at risk than others; it just depends on the cat. The late Muffy and the current Phantom are outdoor cats, but never leave the property. Ever. Muffy was dumped at six months and never wanted to leave her new home after we took her in. Phantom is just extremely paranoid of the world at large. And we have a dog who keeps any wild predators away from our yard.

I'm glad Muffy was and Phantom is an outdoor kitty because shutting them indoors wouldn't protect them much more than they already are. And Phantom is much less stressed outside than inside, where she gets frightened of things like rugs and doors.

My own kitties, Remy and Booster, are inside cats because I live in an apartment, so they don't have any yard to consider their "territory" and would certainly wander off the property. Plus there are lots of houses with "beware of dog" signs around, plus stray cats, and I don't want them getting into fights or being chased.

~LM~
  #33  
Old October 28th, 2005, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinkyT
All this time we've been discussing wildlife and cars being a danger to the cats. What about the pissed off people who leave out poison to keep cats off of thier properties?
Is that legal?
  #34  
Old October 28th, 2005, 06:43 PM
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sure its cats instincts to hunt and roam but can they not have things to hunt inside their home?
my cat baby before his accident was a hunter he would kill any mouse, rat, bird, mole, snake, squirrell that he could get his paws on... his nickname was the great white hunter you couldnt keep him inside for more than a night and then he was what we're guessing hit by a car and now hes terrified of the outside
i think back before his accident and ask myself
now im sure if he FULLY knew all of the dangers outside if i could communicate with him some how and tell him full on that people in this world hunt down cats and torture them because they can or they poison them because they dont want that animal using the bathroom in their yard or they are too busy using the phone in their car and hit the poor animal then see the poor thing hobble off and assume that because its walking its ok then drives off
im pretty sure that he wouldnt want to go outside if he knew that... and what i just listed are just a fraction of the dangers out there
if you were at risk of things like that and you didnt really know about those dangers yet your mother let you go and do them... wouldnt you concider your mother irresponsible? letting her child go outside and play where its dangerous and where her child could easily be killed and tortured?
i regret ever letting my cats outside
i am their mother and even tho its a cat and not a human i am responsible for that animal and to let them go outside with those dangers is in my opinion ignorant
sure they may know to look both ways before crossing the street like baby did but how does he know to not walk up to people when they try to pet him because they might kill him?
how can a cat see a car coming around the corner really fast and get out of the way in time because the idiot is drunk?
how can a cat get away from a pack of wolves?
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  #35  
Old October 28th, 2005, 10:20 PM
StinkyT StinkyT is offline
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Kayla, I'm not sure about the laws in Canada, inadequate as they are. I do know that you can be charged with such things as animal cruelty, but unless you leave your business card at the scene of the crime or someone spots you, how would they know who it was?

Haven't we all heard about the hot dog chunks stuffed with rat poison in one of the Toronto parks a few years ago that killed a few dogs and sickened others? Nobody was ever caught. I'm sure there are also a lot of cases people don't hear about... how easy would it be to leave a dish of food out with something toxic in it? We've all heard the warnings about how yummy antifreeze apparently is to dogs and cats, so please keep it away from them... if you were angry enough about roaming animals, there are so many easy ways to "permanently fix the problem".

I'm not advocating any of the above, I would be devastated if it happened to my pets, but you know there are deranged people out there who do these kinds of things.
  #36  
Old October 28th, 2005, 11:25 PM
kayla kayla is offline
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I guess I was wondering about the legality of it because I know it is legal to shoot a dog if it is after your livestock. And I think it is illegal to let your pets on other people's property, so I wondered if they also had legal rights to poison any cat on their property?

On a different note.. I was curious as to how people kept their cats inside during the summer months? I for one love to have windows and doors open during the summer, so how would you prevent your cats from getting outdoors? I guess you could put screens up on the windows, but what about doors? Most cats can jump baby gates right? Do people just not leave their doors open?
  #37  
Old October 28th, 2005, 11:47 PM
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in my house we have a screen door that you can close when you have the sliding door open and we have a screen door we would have closed if the front door is open but im sure there are neat tricks people do to keep their cats inside if they didnt have a screen door
im gonna google and see if i can find anything on that... if i find anything i'll let you guys know
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  #38  
Old October 29th, 2005, 12:29 AM
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this is what i found for a sliding door http://www.petscreen.com/secure_order.htm
i also found this you can put in regular doorways
http://www.secretscreen.com/
im not sure if a cat could squeeze between the doorframe and the edge of the secret screen but im sure there are ways to stop a cat from being able to do that
hehehe found this site as well with a retractable screen door http://www.wizardindustries.com/homeshow2004.html heres pics of it
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Last edited by xFire Angelx; October 29th, 2005 at 12:32 AM.
  #39  
Old October 29th, 2005, 02:19 AM
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I VERY strongly believe cats should not be allowed outdoors. It's just so irresponsible to allow your cat to affect the ecosystem by killing birds and small mammals. How many cats are allowed to roam? The numbers are overwhelming..... http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/predation.pdf

Also it REALLY irritates me that my darling neighbours 3 cats have started using our sun room roof as their litter box, soooo nice to be cleaning up their poop. We've caught them in the act so we know it's them. It's also very nice that they are using the sand boxes that kids are playing in as their litterboxes, nice!

And lastly, it's just not safe for the cats.
  #40  
Old October 30th, 2005, 09:43 AM
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Unhappy Tragic

My black kitty cat Tragic was an indoor/outdoor cat.
(Not because I wanted it that way, but because I live with my grandmother and she is unreasonable! It's her house, her rules.)
She dissapeared in April, only days before a vet appointment to update shots, advantage for fleas and get rid of the tapeworms she had picked up from eating goodness knows what!!! See? Not good!

Cats shouldn't be outside unsupervised.
They kill things, pick up parasites, and worse get hurt and lost.
It happens ALL THE TIME~!

I also love birds, and hate to see them die at a kitty's claws when they don't even need to eat that bird!
So I'm pro indoor and outdoor only when supervised.
Start em young! They'll be happier kitties! And you CAN change their habits, but it takes work and patience! And cat proof screening!
  #41  
Old October 30th, 2005, 09:54 AM
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I also love birds, and hate to see them die at a kitty's claws when they don't even need to eat that bird!
From a Darwinian perspective; in an environment with no predators doesn't the outside cat serve some role in strengthening the bird population?!?

Our outside cat in Calgary, in a new community, also brings home a mouse every couple a weeks

I may be in the minority but I'd much rather have a cat outside than an evil filthy little rodent around or worse ...in my house

Last edited by Gazoo; October 30th, 2005 at 09:57 AM.
  #42  
Old October 30th, 2005, 10:09 AM
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From a Darwinian perspective; in an environment with no predators doesn't the outside cat serve some role in strengthening the bird population?!?
No. In nature there would never be such a huge concentration of predators in one small area. Also, truly wild cats do not prey on birds so heavily, since birds are difficult to catch, the reward is small and it wastes valuable energy stores the predators needs. This also applies to feral cats in our neighbourhoods - the look for easier prey like rodents, or raid garbage.

Well-fed pet cats are the biggest predators of birds, since they don't need them for food and can afford to waste energy stalking and killing them.

Quote:
Our outside cat in Calgary, in a new community, also brings home a mouse every couple a weeks
I hope you deworm you cat often, since mice are usually infested with parasites your cat will catch.

Last edited by Lucky Rescue; October 30th, 2005 at 10:12 AM.
  #43  
Old October 30th, 2005, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Gazoo
From a Darwinian perspective; in an environment with no predators doesn't the outside cat serve some role in strengthening the bird population?!?
Cats who kill for fun and cats who kill for food would select completely different birds. And the cats would need a predator too if you want survival of the fittest. These house cats are getting energy on the side- that's not Darwin. That's like saying "Give the cheetah steriods and see if the gazelles can out run him then!" You know what I mean? A cat who has tiny birds and mice as their sole energy source will be much slower and catch way less prey than the ones who go home and get to eat 500kcal of food.
  #44  
Old October 30th, 2005, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoo
I may be in the minority but I'd much rather have a cat outside than an evil filthy little rodent around or worse ...in my house
Seriously, you must live in a 100 yr old house or a very dirty one to have rodents. I know not one neighbour or friend who has seen a rodent in their homes. It is very unusual in an urban area unless someone is very unclean and their premises draws rodents and insects.

And I am with Lucky. I hope your cats are up do date on their deworming meds as well as other vaccinations because eating rodents is a great way to come into contact with all manner of disease.

That has to be the worst excuse yet I have heard for allowing a cat outdoors!! (Unless you live on a farm and want feral cats for your barn but a barn in Calgary? I think not).
  #45  
Old October 30th, 2005, 03:25 PM
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just a quick question....

if you have rodents in your home wouldnt you want to keep the cat INSIDE so the cat can catch the rodents that are in there?
why let the cat out and let the rodents get comfortable in your home?
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  #46  
Old October 30th, 2005, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberKitten
Seriously, you must live in a 100 yr old house or a very dirty one to have rodents. I know not one neighbour or friend who has seen a rodent in their homes. It is very unusual in an urban area unless someone is very unclean and their premises draws rodents and insects.

And I am with Lucky. I hope your cats are up do date on their deworming meds as well as other vaccinations because eating rodents is a great way to come into contact with all manner of disease.

That has to be the worst excuse yet I have heard for allowing a cat outdoors!! (Unless you live on a farm and want feral cats for your barn but a barn in Calgary? I think not).

My parents have mice outside and their house was built in the 50s or 60s . . . and the yard and house are definitely clean! My mom's rather obsessive about cleaning, actually . . . The mice live in the woodpile by the fence and in the neighbor's garden. Also, my mom puts sesame seeds out for the squirrels . . . well, you can guess who sneaks them!

Phantom does catch mice occassionally, which is great. It always bugged me on the Tom & Jerry cartoons how you were supposed to sympathize with Jerry. Yeah . . . poooor little mousie spreading the hantavirus everywhere.

Regarding birds, I was reading something interesting on a website about crows the other day. Crows eat eggs and nestlings, but if you drive the crows away from an area, the number of small birds eaten does not go down because the birds/eggs that would have been eaten by crows are just eaten by other animals, like raccoons and skunks, instead. In our area, having a dog or cat in the yard probably results in less birdie deaths in that particular location since it keeps the wild predators out.

Quote:
Cats who kill for fun and cats who kill for food would select completely different birds. And the cats would need a predator too if you want survival of the fittest. These house cats are getting energy on the side- that's not Darwin. That's like saying "Give the cheetah steriods and see if the gazelles can out run him then!" You know what I mean? A cat who has tiny birds and mice as their sole energy source will be much slower and catch way less prey than the ones who go home and get to eat 500kcal of food.
That's true . . . the cats are at "full power" all the time. On the other hand, there are bird feeders everywhere around here, so the birds should be at full power too.

I'm amazed Phantom ever catches anything anyway. She learned her hunting methods from the dog as a kitten, so her technique is to sneak a little ways, then break into a run while fifteen feet away . . .

~LM~
  #47  
Old October 30th, 2005, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberKitten
Seriously, you must live in a 100 yr old house or a very dirty one to have rodents. I know not one neighbour or friend who has seen a rodent in their homes. It is very unusual in an urban area unless someone is very unclean and their premises draws rodents and insects.
I missed this before- I have to say I know a very upscale apartment building in Montreal with a full time maintenance crew and somebody on the 9th floor had mice in their apartment. Rodents are everywhere, whether you are clean or not.
  #48  
Old October 30th, 2005, 05:13 PM
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If you are clean, you do not get rodents unless it is in some unusual circumstamce. A wood pile would be that tho I have to say I have a woodpile but not a rodent in site. It's prob too cold, lol One of the greatest accomplishments of public health in this century is that we have managed to live in areas without rodents. Loathe as I am to cite personal anectodes, I know of not one person or family with rodents. Well, maybe some who live in substandard housing but that's it. Even in Florida - where the heat would encourage little furry creatures more than the frigid white north, people have ways of ensuring their homes have nothing. (and I do not mean of the feline persuasion, lol) To be sure, farmers I know have field mice and some ppl I know have rats or mice as pets but that's it.

Anyway - this is soooo offtopic, lol I just do not see keeping cats as mousers in 2005 as a legitimate reason. (Unless one is a farmer and feral cats need a place to say and even then I worry about the cats - I'd hope the farmer would feed the cats and not just assume they can live on the rodents alone!)
  #49  
Old October 30th, 2005, 05:14 PM
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Does "rodents coming in for the winter" count as unusual circumstance?
  #50  
Old October 31st, 2005, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberKitten
If you are clean, you do not get rodents unless it is in some unusual circumstamce.

Clean or not has nothing to do with it. Mice will migrate into homes when it gets cold outside.

Mice are a successful scavenger species and are everywhere in most every city, you just rarely see them if you're not looking. My cat brought home a few a month in the beltline in Calgary.

Now that we live in a new community near the outskirts of the city he brings home even more!!
  #51  
Old October 31st, 2005, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoo
Clean or not has nothing to do with it. Mice will migrate into homes when it gets cold outside.
exactly. My house is emaculate, and we still get a few mice in the winter. In fact, the mice that come into the house are the only ones my cats will go after. They have NEVER killed anything outside, but when my youngest cat was 7 months old, she caught her first mouse in the house. (ironically, she left it under the xmas tree for us!)
  #52  
Old October 31st, 2005, 02:27 PM
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Makes for an interesting Christmas morning.
  #53  
Old October 31st, 2005, 02:33 PM
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I'm jealous... My dogs never get me anything.
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Old October 31st, 2005, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jesse's mommy
Makes for an interesting Christmas morning.
Judging from the trail of blood throughout the house, I thought Santa was seriously injured.
  #55  
Old October 31st, 2005, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberKitten
If you are clean, you do not get rodents unless it is in some unusual circumstamce.
Actually, the latest statistics show that due to an improvement in the socio-economic statistics of rodents, they are now moving to upscale neighbourhoods, and sending thier young to better schools, as well.

The only pre-requisite for a mouse in your home is a place for them to migrate from (fields), and a way in (pretty much any space that could be as small as 1 inch).

As for the neighbour's cat not being "that big of a deal", my wife originally felt the same way. Then after a few nights of having to try to put a crying baby back to sleep because of a screaming cat outside the window, and pricing new screens, she, too, changed her mind. And when it comes time for Gracie to play in a sandbox, I'm sure it'll really become more of a big deal. I always laugh at the cat-lovers who don't see what the big deal is, then when they have children, and have to start smacking kitty "tootsie-rolls" out of thier hands while they are playing in the sand box, suddenly thier tune changes. It's all about consideration for your neighbours.

As to letting cats outside in general, I think it is nice for kitty to get out and play. I just think it is completely ignorant to let your cat roam the neighbourhood at large.
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  #56  
Old October 31st, 2005, 03:12 PM
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Ya, my great aunt's cat has a leash and is tied up outside. She's quite lumpy so the harness stays on quite well, and she's been doing it since she was little, so she knows the drill.
  #57  
Old October 31st, 2005, 03:38 PM
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We have neighbors in the next building over who have about 5 cats and let them roam everywhere.

1) There are ALWAYS dead mice everywhere, my friend stepped on one. I almost stepped on one this morning. My dog tried to eat one, thankfully he was onleash and I was paying attention.

2) A few weeks ago, they posted signs around the neighborhood because one of the cats is missing. They still haven't found it.

3) My cats are indoor cats. In the summer, they sometimes sit on our balcony (we are 3 story condo building on the 2nd floor.) They cannot get off our balcony. One day, I look out on my balcony and one of the neighbor's cats is "visiting" my cat. Fast forward a few weeks: My cat has HERPES!!!!! This virus is extremely contagious (to cats only) and very common in cats. Most cats are just carriers of the virus, like our neighbors cats. Now my cat has to live with this disease. He has a huge growth on his eyeball which is NOT comfortable for him. He has to get about twelve different drops A DAY in his eyes = no fun for him. Hopefully the growth will get smaller soon. We have had 5 appointments with a very expensive opthamologist. Our vet bills are at $900, and our cat will need these meds for the rest of his life.

This is not an uncommon situation. Our vet says that MANY cats carry this virus. Our neighbors cats are still out roaming and spreading herpes. Fabulous.
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  #58  
Old October 31st, 2005, 03:52 PM
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Our neighbors cats are still out roaming and spreading herpes.
Not only that, but also deadly FeLV and FIV. Many battle scarred intact toms harbour these diseases, then spread them through fighting or mating.
  #59  
Old October 31st, 2005, 03:55 PM
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There are many dangers out there for roaming cats. When I was little, we had some indoor/outdoor cats. I can't say any of them lived to old age. Ever since then we have had only indoor cats. One of our indoor cats got out one day and my neighbour found her on the side of the street with a broken pop bottle next to her. Someone had taken it upon themselves to brutally kill her. We were all devastated. Our present cat is strictly indoors and is not allowed out unsupervised.
  #60  
Old November 5th, 2005, 02:14 AM
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My opinion on the indoor/outdoor issue is simple. If you are in a relatively safe area (rural, semi-rural or quiet suburban), I see no problem provided the cat is spayed/neutered and up-to-date with vaccines (delousing on a monthly basis will also be necessary).

Re the 'sandbox' issue .... when I was growing up, both cats and dogs used to run around off-leash and I don't remember every getting some horrible disease from playing at the park or in the sandbox.

There was no 'stoop & scoop' bylaws back then, and we just watched where we walked. We were also careful not to eat the 'yellow' snow ......
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