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  #1  
Old June 19th, 2005, 01:50 PM
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anyone know how safe for a dad and daughter to mate ?

Last edited by Golden Girls; September 4th, 2005 at 09:27 PM.
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Old June 19th, 2005, 08:37 PM
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It's called 'line breeding' and generally acceptable by most breeders. It increases the paternal genes in the offspring. It is not acceptable to breed littermates together though...it doesn't strengthen the genes, only 'muddies the water' so to speak.
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Old June 19th, 2005, 09:44 PM
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Stupid neighbour!
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Old June 20th, 2005, 07:09 AM
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I would assume that neighbor is not a reputable show person or he would know you should NEVER, ever, ever, ever breed a bitch under 2 years of age...Nevermind the lineage!
You can let him know for me (if not all of us here at pets.ca) he's a MORON!
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Old June 20th, 2005, 07:21 AM
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At 8 months old, she is just a pup herself! I'm sure your neighbour would not agree with a young teenage girl having a child since she would be a child herself, yet that is exactly what they are expecting this poor female doggie to do, be a mother to her pups when she herself hasn't yet finished growing up, mentally or physically!

I agree 1000% with Luba and wjranch!
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Old June 20th, 2005, 09:57 AM
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I'm sorry but from a genetics stand point, the doggies are going to be much weaker if you breed a dad with a daughter. The majority of the offspring's genes will be the dad's and if he has any genetic marker for any disease, the chances of the offspring getting it skyrockets.

If this is acceptable in breeding circles, all I can say is no wonder there are so many genetically weak pure bred dogs out there. And you can't tell me about DNA testing to make sure the dad is cleared-- they still can't DNA test for every disease, and DNA testing is still relatively new-- they've been inbreeding for WAY longer than there has been testing.

Breeding with relatives means the genetic variation drops meaning the offspring will have less and less differences between them meaning a HUGE possibility for recessive genetic diseases to show up.
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Old June 20th, 2005, 02:05 PM
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If you buy all 5 he'll just breed again write away!

Father to Daughter is technically in-breeding, not line-breeding. Which is OK if you know what you are doing and you have healthy dogs. That is, you know the pedigree a way back and also have knowledge of the siblings of the father. If the father and daughter are carrying some bad recessive genes, they would show up in some of its siblings. And you can't in-breed continously or you will start to create problems at which time you must outcross and basically start a new "line" of which most of the dogs in the first few generation will be very different from each other and full of surprises, some very weak dogs, some middle of the road and every now and then a superstar from which to develop the new line from.

Mind you in-breeding is a quick surefire way to expose genetic weaknesses and to cull them out.

Much better is to line-breed consistently through the motherline.

Ditto the 8 month thing. Doesn't sound like this person has a clue about proper breeding.
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Old June 20th, 2005, 02:15 PM
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I feel sick now

Reading this post is truthfully making me nautious. All of the dogs sitting and dying in shelters and this A**h*le feels he has the right to create life, by inbreeding of all things! And making an 8 month old puppy a mom! Put it this way... tell him he's lucky he lives in Canada! If he lived near me I'd have his door down already and he'd been dogless! What an idiot. URGH!!
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Old June 20th, 2005, 02:29 PM
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All the credible breeders I know would call this a very unsafe practice. In human terms, it is incest but as someone pointed out, it is refered to as line breeding or inbreeding (I have seen both definitions actually tho I do think father- daughter is definitely inbreeding) by breeders of the feline or canine cariety - not sure about other species. I gather from what they have told me and what I have read that while the health effects may not show up in the first generation, there can be problems develop down the line so to speak in further generations.

As you no doubt know, the majorty of people on this Board who know anything at all about breeding do not approve of it UNLESS the breeder is registered and is breeding champions of whatever breed he or she specializes in. There are just too many unwanted animals out there for anyone to engage in backyard breeding.

Anyone who seeks info and wants to breed needs to find a mentor and become involved with the credible organizations and shows before they even begin to contemplate it. It is a difficult process if done properly and must be done with the pet's interest in mind - NOT for profit or because someone thinks their pet is cute and would provide cute offspring.

I personally have a show quality Siamese and she has already been spayed!! I do not want to subject her to the health problems breeding and remaining an intact kitty would bring her. It is not worth it.

Your neighbour is clearly a backyard breeder with no morals and buying a dog from him woulkd be a very bad idea. Not only are you saying with your money that what he is doing is OK, you will be obtaining a dog that may have more health problems than the average member of that breed. And as you know, all breeds have some medical issue that is more probounced, ie labs and hip displasia, etc.

Too, you should consider the fact that a reputable breeder would provide health records, a detailed pedigree, and would assume responsibilty in the event you cannot care for the dog any longer. You should always be able to see both parents - and both parents in good breeding programs come from very different places (ie. are NOT related!!).

Please do not encorage this person!!
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Old June 20th, 2005, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
both parents in good breeding programs come from very different places (ie. are NOT related!!).
This is absolutely wrong. The best dogs, come from carefully planned line breeding and more specifically through the motherlines (as males always lose the y chromosome).

All the breeds started with tight linebreeding and inbreeding. And with sound genes it is a benefit.

Breeding to grandparents and uncles/aunts is standard practise. Outcrossing (breeding to unrelated animals) is a crap shoot.
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Old June 20th, 2005, 07:26 PM
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I can't say I disagree with letting nature take its course and letting the weak/sick pups go. They are more likely the ones to be rejected later in life to do costly health issues etc.
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Old June 20th, 2005, 11:54 PM
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Morons here Morons there morons morons everywhere!!!

I think it's the year no wait decade no wait century of the moron!

I know how u feel I have idiots around me too and it's so hard to see/hear and know what is going on ... it rots your insides and you just feel and ache in heartache for these beautiful animal lives.

I have a dink near me who must have an automatic door in his home, every year seems like a new dog, or every few months even. He used to have 1 pbt then he had 2 then 3 and was planning on breeding the 3rd who was human aggressive because he beat her. Now he has no pbt's and has a rottie pup.

Ask me how much I like this person?
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Old June 21st, 2005, 03:34 PM
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Line breeding happens in all of the responsible breeding programs I know personally. They outcross with other show champions from kennels they know well.. but linebreeding is common .. never as tight as parent to child. But grandchildren are used to as db7 said remove bad genetics. With your own line as a good breeder you know what you have. All the good ones I know have a really firm grasp on genetics and their dogs histories to make sure that they don't have mistakes.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 11:58 AM
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Yes, but if you HAVE all the pedigrees, wouldn't you know already as best you can about the genes that are there? Plus, with DNA testing now, you don't need to "experiment" with your dogs anymore.

Inbreeding does make weaker dogs. There is no doubt. If you look at Chocolate labs, most of their unique traits are caused by recessive genes, which can be isolated using inbreeding. But after a few generations of chocs, they always throw in a Black because the browns fade, the dogs are weaker, etc. And not even from inbreeding. If you cross totally unrelated chocs, the line will eventually get weaker. Recessive genes are generally weaker than dominant genes. Like white cats with blue eyes- they go deaf really early in life. Or albino genes. In humans-- sickle cell anemia. Hemophilia. etc etc.

Heterozygous individuals are genetically stronger and more able to adapt than homozygous individuals. It's a fact of genetics. If you're breeding parents, grandparents to kids, you end up with more and more homozygous individuals, and a weaker line. That may be how breeds were developed way back when, but it is also the reason there are so many genetic diseases in pure breeds as well. Breeders I know now, go outside the country when they are finding mates. Rotty breeders from North America look for studs in Germany. The movement I know of now is to breed dogs who are totally unrelated, as unrelated as you can possibly get while staying in the breed. The odds of the german rotty and the North American rotty sharing a ton of recessive genes is so slim compared to breeding with parents or grandparents.

You can't look at our breeding history and developmet too closely either, because people knew next to nothing about genes and health. I mean, DNA was only really discovered in the 1950's. Saying inbreeding is ok because the first breeders did it, is like saying inbreeding is ok in humans because the royal family did it.

In no way is inbreeding good. In NO way. I'm sorry, but no. There are just too many genes, and far too many that we don't even know about, to try and "play god" trying to isolate some. Isolate one you want, and you'll get a bucket of ones you don't.

Last edited by Prin; June 22nd, 2005 at 12:00 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 01:21 PM
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I have to agree with Prin. Genetic defects/illness are most often carried on the recessive genes. This isn't observed on the physical aspect just the DNA portion of a heterozygous individual. By breeding two individuals who are very closely related, you greatly increase your chance of having an individual with the genetic defect.

I know that it is common practice for inbreeding individuals to a certain degree. But that is why there are so many breeds today that suffer from a long list of genetic diseases.

Take the GSD for example. Years of inbreeding by North American breeders has left many lines with very long lists of genetic illnesses. They have one of the longest lists of genetic diseases. The poodle and cocker spaniel are two other breeds that have suffered from this as well.

Many breeders do go outside their lines and try to get a new gene pool introduced to help strengthen their lines. They usually turn to breeders in other countries either for stud or for importing a dog.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 02:11 PM
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While it is true that extensive tight linebreeding will eventually weaken a line, requiring an outcross after a number of generations, and inbreeding even quicker, correct line breeding creates the best specimens possible. In-breeding and Line breeding will reveal any genetic defects in the line . That is a good thing. That is the only way to discover negative recessives, expose them and get rid of them by not breeding those dogs.

The problem lies NOT with the process it is with the people that do it with sick dogs.

All breeds are the product of inbreeding and linebreeding. And the healthiest and best dogs come from inbred and line bred lines.

In the best lines it is not an issue of avoiding genetic disease as they are relatively non-existent. That is why great breeders won't hesitate to give you a lifetime gaurantee against genetic diseases, they know they have no carriers.

It is done to match and repeat great characteristics. In great breeding programs every pup is a winner, not 1 in 10. In great programs there are no allergies, no c-sections, epilepsy.........

Done in the wrong hands you get sick dogs that get bred to sick dogs.

I've had half a dozen dogs all from line-bred breeding programs and have never been to a vet for anything other than vaccinations and injuries.

The best example of perpetual outcrossinig is humans. We are ridden with disease.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 02:18 PM
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I just have to emphasize this point.

"Take the GSD for example. Years of inbreeding by North American breeders has left many lines with very long lists of genetic illnesses"

Inbreeding is NOT the cause of genetic illness. In breeding will expose weakness which allows the breeder to know what dogs not to breed. The only cause of perpetuating genetic illness in a line is by breeders knowingly breeding genetically sick dogs. Or in the case of outbreeding, unknowingly breeding sick dogs.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 02:19 PM
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In-breeding and Line breeding will reveal any genetic defects in the line . That is a good thing. That is the only way to discover negative recessives, expose them and get rid of them by not breeding those dogs.
And what happens to the dogs who are born suffering from the genetic diseases? It's definitely not in their best interest to inbreed. And how many sick puppies do you have to go through to get one good breeding dog? Like I said before, you can eliminate one or two diseases/traits, but there will always be some in there, and inbreeding makes the dogs weaker. It's not just about diseases either, it's the STRENGTH of the genes. Like I was saying about chocolate labs. There is nothing wrong with the dogs, they are just genetically weaker.

And like I said, with DNA testing to test for the big stuff, nobody should be doing inbreeding experiments on their dogs anymore.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db7
"Take the GSD for example. Years of inbreeding by North American breeders has left many lines with very long lists of genetic illnesses"

Inbreeding is NOT the cause of genetic illness. In breeding will expose weakness which allows the breeder to know what dogs not to breed. The only cause of perpetuating genetic illness in a line is by breeders knowingly breeding genetically sick dogs. Or in the case of outbreeding, unknowingly breeding sick dogs.
It's not the cause, but it perpetuates the diseases and makes them more common. If you inbreed, that means you've had at least one litter before, right? How many litters of "healthy" puppies are you going to have before you decide not to breed the dog because you inbreed and it shows something?

DNA TESTING!!
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 02:38 PM
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I agree that inbreeding isn't necessary, but linebreeding is the only way to keep a breed healthy. Every domestic breed is a product of line-breeding, it can't be denied. Without line-breeding we wouldn't have any of the hundreds of domestic different breeds that exist.

What happens to the weak ones? Well, most make fine pet or working dogs that may generate high vet bills, die young, or shortly after birth. As is shown by all the inquiries on this board by people trying to learn how to care for their dogs ailments.

Remember, I have said repeatedly, it is correct in the right hands. There are certain breeds (they tend to be the currently working and hunting dogs) that have very healthy lines after a century of linebreeding. Done right, there are no sick dogs. all will be great performers. But that being said even with 10 great pups, you are still not certain to get a good brood bitch or stud. They should have to be outstanding alphas for that.

If all breeders followed that guideline and only bread great healthy alphas there would be a lot less orphans that so many on this board help out.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 02:53 PM
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I agree that inbreeding isn't necessary, but linebreeding is the only way to keep a breed healthy. Every domestic breed is a product of line-breeding, it can't be denied. Without line-breeding we wouldn't have any of the hundreds of domestic different breeds that exist.
I disagree with it being the ONLY way to keep a breed healthy. Like I have been saying, DNA testing can assure that dogs don't have the genes for certain diseases, and they can also test for color, etc too. I don't think line breeding has anything to do with health so much as a need to meet a physical appearance standard.

There is no such thing as healthy inbreeding. In ecology, there is a concept called the Extinction Vortex, where when a population gets too small, inbreeding occurs and the species gets weaker and weaker until it disappears. Line breeding and inbreeding insure homozygosity, and homozygous individuals are less fit genetically, and less able to adapt to changes in environment and stresses. Like I said before too, it's not only about genetic diseases, it's about the strength of the genes they have. Inbreeding and such weakens the genes. Fresh, stong genes from a completely different line have to be added to rejuvenate the offspring.

Another thing is that quite a few diseases only show up after a breeding dog has retired. Diseases like Wobbler's, cancers, and so on can show up way after you've inbred and decided your line is so healthy that homozygotes would be better off. You just can't assume that inbreeding will show you the whole picture, and that it'll show up immediately.

My old dobie was a show champion and had a few litters before we got him, and he died of Wobbler's at 13. How many puppies from his line are there out there? Probably hundreds by now. If they had DNA testing back then, they could test for Wobbler's and decide BEFORE mating, that he wasn't genetically 100%. But I guess if you DNA tested all the dogs we have today who were inbred for so long, chances are NONE of them would have a completely clean screening, would they?
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 03:08 PM
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The experts always say it so much better than me.
I invite all to read this for a complete understanding of the value of line breeding and in breeding. And the downside of doing it wrong.

http://www.dogstuff.info/of_peas_and_pups.html

Here is another short article. This is translated from German so the grammer isn't always perfect. The specific breed references are to the GSP.

What is the meaning of "Motherlines?" The idea is too often confused by breeders with "motherside" ... but
Motherlines is the whole of the bloodlines of the mothers, including the father's mother and the other mothers on the
father's side. BUT ALWAYS THE MOTHERS ....[the success of Motherline breeding comes from utilizing very
important sex-linked genes present only in the additional DNA of the X chromosomes of great producing (Stamm)
females ... since a male dog has 76 paired chromosomes plus an X and a Y chromosome the only place a male can
inherit these important sex-linked genes is through his mother ... therefore; when this son becomes a father only his
resulting daughters (never his sons) get this valuable X chromosome back again (along with another X chromosome
from their own mother) ... in turn, when these resulting grand-daughters become mothers the art of breeding lies in
selecting only the male offspring that inherited this valuable X chromosome (as these great-grandsons will be able to
pass the important sex-linked genes on to their get) ... in so doing we bring the influence of the Stamm female
(through this valuable X chromosome) to the topside of the pedigree and dramatically improve our chance of producing
great pups true to type when we breed to quality females from the same Stamm line ... thus the importance of having
an unbroken Motherline on both sides of the pedigree]
Pedigrees only serve as a guide to show us what "blood" could be carried by certain animals. Only through careful
study of a particular animal's offspring and intimate knowledge of its ancestors can we determine what "blood" an
animal is actually carrying. It is necessary to breed both according to bloodlines and performance to achieve success.
We are looking for animals who are outstanding performers within the same bloodline.
It is only by inbreeding that we can double up on the good and bad qualities so we can see what we are dealing
with. When faults in the line come to the surface we can skim them off and get rid of them. By outcrossing we only
cover up the faults and we know not what to expect in subsequent litters. One who condemns inbreeding must in
turn condemn the detective who brings crimes to light as well as the messenger who brings bad news.
A good broodbitch is feminine ... finer build, a light and pretty head with a smaller and thinner neck, lots of
nobility, but also depth for growing pups. You should be able to recognize a good broodbitch at 100 meters and not
find it necessary to look between her hips to tell her sex. Often I have seen young bitches which looked like grown
males receiving much attention and being considered as future outstanding broodbitches. These bitches never lived up
to expectations.
And then there is Herta von der Maylust who was considered a "cat" at shows because of her fine build and light
bone structure and was advised not to be bred because (it was thought) she would only produce poor small puppies.
Yet Herta is a Stamm (original ancestor) mother behind many of our great dogs today.
If you have a bitch you must select a stud with complimentary motherlines. It is much simpler if you have a bitch
from a great motherline so that you can profit from the long experience of breeders in that motherline and have little
difficulty in choosing a good stud dog. With a little known motherline it is difficult to find the proper mate since
there is but a small number of dogs to choose from. Look for a pup with a continuous motherline from known
performers.
When sire and dame have the same motherlines you can generally count on outstanding pups and you will have
classy breeding stock. To improve your motherline you must bring together matching bloodlines holding fast to the
good qualities and abolishing the bad. You then breed for performance, boldness, conformation, nose and waterwork.
The Shorthair must be able to hunt for hours without tiring, he must have an outstanding nose and never give up
on the retrieve of wounded game regardless of the distance. We all owe a great debt to Dr. Kleemann for his artistic
ability to pick the right breeding stock when the breed was young and his willingness to put his keen observations in
writing for the rest of us to follow.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 03:27 PM
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I agree that DNA testing is a great tool for avoid problems but with a breed that is no more than 150 yrs old like the GSP and most breeds, and younger (i think) like the Doberman, whether you know it or not if you pick to dogs to breed based on DNA testing you can be pretty sure that they are related. In essence you are doing the same thing as line breeding just going about it a different way.

The extinction Vortex is very real, but it applies to nature where there is less ability to control breeding to eliminate later life diseases. In a good breeding program if a bred dog shows genetic difficiencies you work on it in the following generations. I never implied that one generation can fix everything. It's extremely complex and very few people can get it perfectly right.

In genetics the call it inbreeding depression. With VERY rigid selection experiments to 25 generations (over 99% homozygosity) have been done with rats without any deterioration, only continued improvements. But that is in the lab.

I agree that inbreeding can be playing with fire, but the fact remains. Every domestic breed is a product of inbreeding and every great breed line is a product of line-breeding. Continued outbreeding always results in surprises. Some good some bad , but you never know what you will get.
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 03:32 PM
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Well said. I just find that the more I learn about genetics, genomics and DNA in general, the more I find that we know nothing about it and yet, we continue to fool around with it as if we did...
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 03:40 PM
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With GSDs the founder of the breed realized the Horand lines were overused in the beginning. 'Max v. Stephanitz recognized the danger inherent in close line breeding and changed his breeding program to outcross with minimally related dogs who were healthy and hardy with an excellent temperament. Like-minded breeders supported him in that they brought together utility dogs from distant branches of the diverse working lines and formed the highlines so advantageous to the breed. This was a significant contribution to the future development of the breed.'

This article shows some differences and the problems

http://showcase.netins.net/web/royalair/libreeding.htm
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Old June 22nd, 2005, 03:42 PM
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:)

Good post Toonces! Thanks for the info.
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Old July 26th, 2005, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luba
Morons here Morons there morons morons everywhere!!!!!
sista.

I'm sorry,but I know of no breeder(and I know quite a few) who do this dad/daughter thing....

Quote:
Originally Posted by db7
Breeding to grandparents and uncles/aunts is standard practise.

I definately know my breeder would never have dreamed of doing this.And she has showed and titled her GSD's for close to 25 years.

I will also have a discussion with the G.S.D.C.C since I am a member.

Once again,I don't know of any breeder who does this.
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