Are we eating tortured animals?

[melanie]

as a vegetarian i find that one of the funniest most ironic questions i have ever heard.

yes yes yes, the meat you eat is only bred to serve you, to serve the feats of death in life so to speak.....and as we all know there is no need for meat in a diet other than sheer desire, lets jsut say that there are and have been billions of healthy vegetarians aroudn the world...

as meat eaters you should admit to where you meat comes, anyone who says that an animal is not tourtured for your meal has either slaughtered the animal in their kitchen using nice methods or is lying to themselves...

yesyes yes animals are tourtured every day to povide tht next hamburger or sausage or handbag or shoes or .........

yes there are free range chooks, i have no porblem with that what so ever, (for more depth of this opinion please see the first thread on whale slaughter) and i know my dad used to kill our sheep, it was always swift and as pain free as possible, if you kill your own then i think you have proven your acceptance of how your meat is sourced and you appreciate it more, and the animals sacrifice.......

for me, to eat the flesh of another is the biggest mortal sin possible and is a cruel and heartless typically human thign to do, i personally find it truly disgusting.......

yes meat is murder and always had been.

[iRONKNiGHT]

Okay so i was too lazy to read the full thread, but i taught Pig's are smater than dog's and can learn much more commands ? Oink oink!!

Coyped off a site i'll provide link for more Reading

Believe it or not, pigs are much cleaner and even smarter than dogs.

I spent part of my childhood on a farm where pigs were raised free-range. Dozens of pigs were free to come and go to large paddocks, from a large, open, concrete barn, that was full of straw and subdivided into three areas. Incredibly, NO PIG EVER WENT TO THE TOILET in that barn! It did not smell! Pigs HATE to make a mess in their own home!

The only reason that pigs smell is because people keep them in tiny, tiny pens which is very cruel for such a smart animal. They probably smell better than humans would smell, if humans were kept in cages of the equivalent size and forced to live with their waste products.

There have been a number of people who claim that pigs are smarter than dogs. I was watching a show on Animal Planet in 2001 and a man who trained pigs claimed that his pigs knew more tricks than his dogs, and were faster to learn.

My own observation of pigs is that any animal that makes so many different noises just has to be smart. I'm pretty good at imitating animal noises, but I have never been able to fully imitate the noise of pigs. If you listen to happy pigs out in the open, they make many, many more noises than the proverbial 'grunt' and 'oink'. It seems as though they have a full vocabulary!

There are worse things than dying. It is incredibly cruel for any animal, let alone a highly intelligent, super social animal such as a pig, to have to spend it's whole life in a tiny, tiny pen where it can't even LIE DOWN, let alone do all the many things pigs love to do.

Plus, when a pig lives in these types of conditons, its body produces a lot of extra toxins which will cause your health to deteriorate if you eat it.

Please, please, please don't eat pork, bacon or pig products that are not labelled free-range (which is most pork products). If a pig has to die for you - at least let her have a happy life!

Further Reading here.

[Vas]

Originally Posted by melanie

as a vegetarian i find that one of the funniest most ironic questions i have ever heard.

yes yes yes, the meat you eat is only bred to serve you, to serve the feats of death in life so to speak.....and as we all know there is no need for meat in a diet other than sheer desire, lets jsut say that there are and have been billions of healthy vegetarians aroudn the world...


as meat eaters you should admit to where you meat comes, anyone who says that an animal is not tourtured for your meal has either slaughtered the animal in their kitchen using nice methods or is lying to themselves...

yesyes yes animals are tourtured every day to povide tht next hamburger or sausage or handbag or shoes or .........


yes there are free range chooks, i have no porblem with that what so ever, (for more depth of this opinion please see the first thread on whale slaughter) and i know my dad used to kill our sheep, it was always swift and as pain free as possible, if you kill your own then i think you have proven your acceptance of how your meat is sourced and you appreciate it more, and the animals sacrifice.......

for me, to eat the flesh of another is the biggest mortal sin possible and is a cruel and heartless typically human thign to do, i personally find it truly disgusting.......

yes meat is murder and always had been.

So it is white or black?!
Meat helped the stone man to evolved into a homo sapiens (well, not in all cases sadly ). Animals provided food, clothes and became companions. Early humans respected animals as well as nature, because without them they wouldn't have survived (as you can see it from their religion, culture , traditions, fossils and later from stories and legends)!
In today's world people are so obssessed with money that sometimes there is no place left for a seed of humanity nor a minimum respect for a living being... I think that keeping animals in awful conditions is much worse than killing and eating their meat.
In fact, as a meat eater "I find that one of the funniest and most ironic" things is that "to eat the flesh of another is the biggest mortal sin possible and is a cruel and heartless typically human thing to do". If it's not a flesh of another human being , believe me there are worse things then that.

[Schwinn]

I have no problem with vegetarians, but eating meat is natural. Yes, a lot of us do it for the taste, but to say that there is no other reason is completely false. Vegetarism is not natural. That doesn't make it wrong, and if you can do it, good on ya, but humans were meat eaters long before they were vegetarians. It is (almost) impossible to find food that supplies all the nutrients required in one part of the world (occuring naturally). I'm not confident enough to say it is impossible. But the majority of the areas of the world where people have always been, it's been proven that if meat were eliminated from thier diet, people would not have survived. To me, that's the greatest proof that it is natural for us to eat meat. Now, it is true that with advancements in technology and with a world market, we can live without meat. However, given that I participate in sports which require muscular strength, include heavy weight lifting, and the fact that I don't have the financial wealth required to maintain and increase my muscle mass through supplementation and no meat, yes, I also eat meat for health reasons. And trust me, I have researched the issue, and in my mind, the fact that you would be required to eat entire meals of supplements in order to build muscle, a natural occurring process of the body (before we spent our days sitting in chairs all day) is further proof that I am following the natural instinct of humans.

[jiorji]

Originally Posted by nymph

LOL marko. I've heard that the most strict vegetarians don't even eat "living vegetables", for example, only when an apple falls from the tree and "chose to die" that they'd eat it.

gosh...no offense to those die hard vegans but where does one draw the line??

please don't take my point the wrong way but it seems that society today is about guilt. they feed guilt to us through every possible source. You should feel guilty for eating(you're too fat and ugly), feel guilty for NOT eating(you're too skinny and ugly), why has it become so complicated to live???
Not everything on tv is real. It's called propaganda, different groups such as PETA may too use key words to get you to be on their side. I DO AGREE on the fur issue. No animal should be killed for fashion. I find it selfish.

BUT....i do believe that we must eat to survive. So the whole apple thing is purely ridiculous. I find it funny how people behave like that. It's cool to be a vegetarian because it's an excuse to not eat.

Having said that, i don't think an animal should be at all, at any time, no matter the circumstance, be tortured, whether it's a pet or raised for eating....but we must eat to survive. It's always been like that.

i don't think i'll ever be a successful vegetarian(not trying to be one) as long as Harvey's is around. sigh....

[nymph]

Actually I don't believe that we must eat meat to survive, at least not in today's world anymore. But I choose to eat meat because I just love it!

I honestly believe that the reason I eat meat is built in my blood, perhaps from millions years of evolution. I watch my puppy Diego, he gets so excited at the first smell of fat and grease, it's his natural animal instinct.

There are tons of debates on this subject. For instance, I've heard that some vegetarians argue that human teeth are not built to eat meat, because we use the back teeth to grind down food like most herbivores.

I think that it's natural for humans to eat meat, but it is by choice to be a vegetarian. I would like to be a vegetarian someday, for health reasons, but it would be a tough choice to give up the tender juicy meat.

[Crazy Hippie]

I must say, I had a good laugh at this post.
Who ever said that vegans won't kill vegetables? Only eating apples that choose to die? Give me a break! Vegetables do not have a central nervous system...they do not feel pain. I don't think you'll find a vegetarian out there who believes they do!

And Schwinn, I found your post to be totally hilarious. You think that eating meat is healthier than going veg? Of course people eat meat for the taste, who doesn't like the taste? We who quit eating it do it for the animals, and, ahem, for our HEALTH. Why is it that vegetarians are so much LESS likely to develop heart disease and cancer? Osteoporosis? May I remind you that heart disease and cancer are leading causes of death in North America? Meat is full of saturated fat and other "toxins" which come from the hormones the animals are fed, antibiotics/meds in their feed, even from smoke and char from cooking...in the end you get clogged arteries and cancer. So you're saying that our only source of protein is meat? Hmmmm..I must have been absent from Nutrition the week we studied protein.

And ya, we were meat eaters before we were vegetarians, but what choice did our ancestors have? At least the animals were respected and nothing was wasted, and the animals did not live in filth. They were not mass produced to be tortured by humans and slaughtered. Their lives had value.

Let me also point out that I too participate in sports and weight lifting, and I am never low on energy or protein. The only "supplements" I take are iron and B12, which cost very little. You do not need protein supplements, just eat other sources of protein! Who ever said you need to "eat entire meals of supplements" in order to build muscle? That's ridiculous. Here's an idea: eat a balanced diet that doesn't contain meat. Voila!

And jiorji, since you like Harvey's so much, have you ever tried their veggie burger? It's the best fast-food veg burger out there. I'm sure you'll continue to eat meat, but give it a try. Pleeeeze?

Sorry about all the ranting, but some people are just so misinformed on this issue. I'm so TIRED of people saying "well I tried to be veg but I got really sick". If you're going to eliminate meat from your diet, you must replace the protein with other protein foods. Living on starch doesn't cut it, of course you'll feel sick! Meat is also a major source of iron, zinc and B12 and these should be replaced in one way or another whether it's thru supps or other foods. And please don't ask me if I live on salad! Yes, um, I eat only lettuce and tomato 3 times a day.

For those meat lovers out there, just want to tell you that Schneiders has recently started selling veggie burgers, veggie dogs, meatless chicken and meatless nuggets. Not sure exactly which stores sell them but I buy them from A&P. I'm telling you this because these products are absolutely amazing, and they are made in a different facility from the meat products. Try them and you won't be disappointed, I promise! Hey Schwinn, did I mention they are high in PROTEIN??

There's a really good video called "Meet Your Meat" that I suggest you check out. Maybe that will throw a new spin on what we veggies are trying to get across.

[Dogastrophe]

Couldn't resist posting this. It is a song by the Arrogant Worms named Carrot Juice is Murder:

********************

Listen up brothers and sisters, come here my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature, trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegtables live in oppression, served on out tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness, i say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, cole slaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, watching their skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy.. how do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes murder.. greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening.. let's call a spade a spade.

I saw a man eating celery, so i beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again, i'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner, trapped in a windowless cage
'cause i stopped the slaughter of turnips, by killing five men in a rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me, this is my finest hour..
I'd kill those farmers again, just to save one more cauliflower

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, watching their skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy.. how do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes murder.. greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening.. let's call a spade a spade.

How low as people do we dare to stoop
Making our broccolis bleed in the soup
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!

I've heard the screams of the vegetables, watching their skins being peeled
Grated and steamed with no mercy.. how do you think that feels?
Carrot juice constitutes murder.. greenhouses prisons for slaves
It's time to stop all this gardening.. let's call a spade a spade.
Is a spade is a spade is a spade is a... spade

Power to the peas! Give peas a chance!
all we are saying, is give peas a chance

[nymph]

Crazy Hippie: I respect your choice of being a vegetarian, why can't you respect my choice of being a meat lover? I really didn't appreciate the aggressive, sarcastic, sometimes offensive tone of your voice.

You know who you remind me of: the vegan Californian mom Barbara from Trading Spouses, who said "that's my strong point...because I’m really smart. I think… no, I know!" and later misspelled the plural form of the word "monkeys", she insisted that the plural form should be changed to "-ies", because "I know what I’m talking about, okay?” THAT was hilarious.

Live and learn, because there are so much out there that we just don't know.

[nymph]

Dogastrophe: that's a good one!

[Cactus Flower]

I just wanted to point out that during our most primitive times, meat was not a regular part of our diet. That only happened once we began making tools, which brought us into an entirely different era. Anthropologists and evolutionary scientists use the tool-making era as a landmark point in our history. Our diets changed dramatically once we were able to hunt for food, using crude weapons for the kill, as well as tools for gutting/skinning etc.

Before then, we ate mostly veggies, roots and fruit.

Of course, you'll find conflicting theories in any/every field. But this one makes sense to me, and will also explain the argument that is so often used about us not having "carnivorous" teeth.

This has been an interesting thread, one that I've really enjoyed reading.

[Schwinn]

Originally Posted by Crazy Hippie

And Schwinn, I found your post to be totally hilarious. You think that eating meat is healthier than going veg? Of course people eat meat for the taste, who doesn't like the taste? We who quit eating it do it for the animals, and, ahem, for our HEALTH. Why is it that vegetarians are so much LESS likely to develop heart disease and cancer? Osteoporosis? May I remind you that heart disease and cancer are leading causes of death in North America? Meat is full of saturated fat and other "toxins" which come from the hormones the animals are fed, antibiotics/meds in their feed, even from smoke and char from cooking...in the end you get clogged arteries and cancer. So you're saying that our only source of protein is meat? Hmmmm..I must have been absent from Nutrition the week we studied protein.

I'm glad you find me funny. I've been told that many do. And I don't think you were absent from nutrition when you studied protein, just when you read my post. No where did I say protein is only found in meat. Legumes are an excellent source. And why is it vegetarians are less likely to develop heart disease and cancer? That's an easy one. The average vegetarian is more aware of nutrition than the average meat eater. The average meat eater eats junk food and all sorts of garbage, the type of thing that causes cancer. It's a false argument. Is the average vegetarian avoiding these health issues because they don't eat meat, or because they don't make the same poor nutritional choices of the rest of the population? There are millions of meat eaters, who live a healthy lifestyle, who do not have heart disease and cancer. I find it funny when a vegatarian uses that argument, as it is very misleading. As for lifting weights, I'm speaking from my experience with bodybuilding, both professional and amatuer. Every vegan bodybuilder I've met has had to have a tonne of different supplements in order to allow thier muscles to do what they do naturally, grow. Same with sports requiring muscular strength. I defy you to show me a vegetarian line-backer who isn't taking a tonne of supplements. Actually, I'd be interested in meeting a vegetarian linebacker.

So, while yes, I eat meat because I enjoy the taste, I also think it is more natural and, as part of a healthy lifestyle, I do it to remain healthy. There's been plenty of scientific studies that support my decision. So before you get on your high soy-horse, and tell me I only do it for one reason, realize I'm respecting your reasons, and I'm using plenty of scientific studies for mine. I don't fault anyone who becomes a vegatarian because they have moral problems with eating meat. I'm morally opposed to eating asparagus. But you know what? Without scientific, absolute proof and agreement, it's healthier in your opinion, just like I feel it is healthier, in my opinion, to eat meat. Now, you want to argue about whether the hormones and such that a lot of today's meat contains (again, not all)? That's a different arguement.

One last thing, I really have to laugh when I hear that the meat I'm eating is coming from a tortured animal. "We are going to make you into a hamburger. But first we are going to hook up these jumper cables to your nipples". Yes, I only buy meat from Abu Gharib ranch.

[Jackie467]

I wasn't going to get into this thread but I do have to say there are medical reasons to not becoming vegitarian. Me for instance, I have very bad animia I take four 250 mg of iron a day because of this, do you have any idea how much that rips up your stomach? If I didn't eat the meat that I do I would have to take twice possible 3 times of iron that i'm taking now, I couldn't even begin to image what my stomach would be like then. As it is now I have to drink 3 glasses of benifiber (the brand that works the best with me) a day, and trust me that stuff is terrible, just to keep from getting so backed up I have to go to the hospital. I have stomach aches every day, I started taking iron 2 years ago and I still get the stomachachs. And I do take my iron after eating a meal so that isn't it. If I were to become a vegitarian I would be taking so much iron I wouldn't be able to stand it. So yes there can be medical reasons for not being a vegitarian. I don't know why my body has so much trouble with Iron, but it does and there is nothing I can do other than take iron supplements.

[mrjohndoe]

If you don't know directly where your food comes from than I'd say there is 100% chance that animal has suffered some form of abuse.

I worked in the corporate hog farm environment for five years for more info click here:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showpost.ph...7&postcount=29

I'll give you an example at one of the places I worked there was this guy -- let's call him idiot-- who like to use a cattle prod (nice name for stun gun) to load animals into the trailor. This use to get me very angry, as they were under enough stress and usually as result it took 2 to 3 times as long to load them.

One time I stood back and let "Idiot" do his normal routine and after about five minutes all 12 animals (250 pounds each) turned back on him. Needless to say I had to save his "bacon" and he got the point.

I love seeing free range piggies or any animal for that matter. There are plenty of humane ways to farm and Holland/Europe has imposed many of them. We need to get with the times.

[Schwinn]

Originally Posted by Jackie467

If I were to become a vegitarian I would be taking so much iron I wouldn't be able to stand it.

On the flip side, what a cool party trick to carry a whole bunch of magnets without using your hands! Oh, and you could put different sayings on your shirts with those alphabet letters, without changing your shirt! Heck, you wouldn't even need a shirt! You could...

Okay, I'll stop now.

[iRONKNiGHT]

Crazy Hippie you're RIGHT ON Mate!!
I agree 100%

[melanie]

craxy hip there was absolutly nothing wrong with your post and no undertones, your jsut statuing your case...and go girl, thanks for posting whawt i was thinking, jsut couldnt be bothered doing it....in fact i find quite a condecending tone in many of the psots here, i thnk we all jsut need to stop and accept each otehrs beliefs and opinions a bit more, so i dont live like you, does it matter....

vas, im not sure if you were trying to be offensive with your tone, if so i didnt get it....i am trying to assume you didnt mean it...

and yes i sound liek a minority here, but in some parts of the world my beliefs and practice are the majority...and as far as religion and flesh consumption goes, why im sure there are millions of hindu and buddist in the world who would disagree......

there were many other factors of our evolution other than meat consumption (such as the ability to develop tools), and there is countless evidence to show vegetables and wild food played a huge role in evolution too and were eaten during evolutionary stages..

and i would disagree that it hasto be human flesh to be offensive, i have had some wonderful relationships with cows and chickens, they have been dear friends, and i would never eat the flesh of a loved one, jsut because ia creature is different to me does not make it any less of my equal or deserving of the right of love, respect and a nice life.......

if the cows ever grow opposable thumbs and turn on you with guns i am hoping they will be my friends for not eating, them and then i will become QUEEN OF THE BOVINE yay what an honor


have you ever heard the song cows with guns, very funny...

Fat and docile, big and dumb
They look so stupid, they aren't much fun
Cows aren't fun

They eat to grow, grow to die
Die to be et at the hamburger fry
Cows well done

Nobody thunk it, nobody knew
No one imagined the great cow guru
Cows are one

He hid in the forest, read books with great zeal
He loved Che Guevera, a revolutionary veal
Cow Tse Tongue

He spoke about justice, but nobody stirred
He felt like an outcast, alone in the herd
Cow doldrums

He mooed we must fight, escape or we'll die
Cows gathered around, cause the steaks were so high
Bad cow pun

But then he was captured, stuffed into a crate
Loaded onto a truck, where he rode to his fate
Cows are bummed

He was a scrawny calf, who looked rather woozy
No one suspected he was packing an Uzi
Cows with guns

They came with a needle to stick in his thigh
He kicked for the groin, he pissed in their eye
Cow well hung

Knocked over a tractor and ran for the door
Six gallons of gas flowed out on the floor
Run cows run!

He picked up a bullhorn and jumped up on the hay
We are free roving bovines, we run free today

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns

They crashed the gate in a great stampede
Tipped over a milk truck, torched all the feed
Cows have fun

Sixty police cars were piled in a heap
Covered in cow pies, covered up deep
Much cow dung

Black smoke rising, darkening the day
Twelve burning McDonalds, have it your way

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns

The President said "enough is enough These uppity cattle, its time to get tough"

Cow dung flung

The newspapers gloated, folks sighed with relief
Tomorrow at noon, they would all be ground beef
Cows on buns

The cows were surrounded, they waited and prayed
They mooed their last moos,
they chewed their last hay
Cows out gunned

The order was given to turn cows to whoppers
Enforced by the might of ten thousand coppers
But on the horizon surrounding the shoppers

Came the deafening roar of chickens in choppers

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns


whooooooo one day i wish, thatll teach yas...

[Cactus Flower]

LOL Mel, my son loves that song!

[Vas]

Originally Posted by melanie

vas, im not sure if you were trying to be offensive with your tone, if so i didnt get it....i am trying to assume you didnt mean it...

I thought your tone was offensive too! Calling us (meat-eaters) "murderers and great sinners"...

In fact I think that you're a wonderful person and I like you and appreciate you for the love and respect you give to every living being. We are happy to have such people like you on this earth!

Originally Posted by melanie

there were many other factors of our evolution other than meat consumption (such as the ability to develop tools), and there is countless evidence to show vegetables and wild food played a huge role in evolution too and were eaten during evolutionary stages..

Of course people never thrived on meat alone! Not at all! But even when they became agriculturists, about 20% of their diet was meat.
Recently I saw on discovery channel a docummentary on human evolution. They (scientists) now believe that if people had not eaten meat their brain would not have developed to become highly intelligent creatures!

Nowadays I must agree that less meat- better health and longer life! I think that vegetarians can be healthier then meat eaters if they choose right food. I would like to become a vegetarian, but I find it difficult to replace meat so I try to balance my diet as much as possible...

Originally Posted by melanie

and i would disagree that it hasto be human flesh to be offensive, i have had some wonderful relationships with cows and chickens, they have been dear friends, and i would never eat the flesh of a loved one, jsut because ia creature is different to me does not make it any less of my equal or deserving of the right of love, respect and a nice life.......

Good! For me cows are for milk and chikens are for eggs and they deserve to live abuse free life!
By the way, those who have tried fresh milk from a happy and free cow (that eats grass and not mashed bones), would never again drink milk from supermarkets! You will never believe how tasty milk can be! :love:

[Schwinn]

Originally Posted by melanie

craxy hip there was absolutly nothing wrong with your post and no undertones, your jsut statuing your case...and go girl, thanks for posting whawt i was thinking, jsut couldnt be bothered doing it....in fact i find quite a condecending tone in many of the psots here, i thnk we all jsut need to stop and accept each otehrs beliefs and opinions a bit more, so i dont live like you, does it matter....

The words were fine, it was the arrogance that came through with them. You're right, there's been condensencian on both sides. If people want to debate, that's fine. But there's enough arguments and studies from both sides to say that there is no clear-cut answer.

if the cows ever grow opposable thumbs and turn on you with guns i am hoping they will be my friends for not eating, them and then i will become QUEEN OF THE BOVINE yay what an honor

Aw, yes. The great COWPOCALYPSE!! Don't think for a minute, my dear Melanie, that given half a chance they wouldn't eat you. You know, I've heard people say that cows are dumb, but I don't believe it. You know when the are looking at you, and it seems to be a blank stare? Don't be fooled. They're thinking, "If I could find a barbecue right now, you'd SOOO be my lunch!" That's why you never see farmers leaving thier barbecues ANYWHERE near the fields they keep the cows in. The biggest threat to human's dominance of the species is the invention of the push-button starter, thus ensuring the ability to start a barbecue without opposable thumbs. Oh yes, if we're not careful, the great cow uprising will ensue.

[Crazy Hippie]

Nymph, I wasn't being aggressive. And I'm sorry I don't respect your decision to be a "meat lover". I don't understand why people who love animals see no harm in eating their flesh. I agree with Melanie: meat is murder.

Schwinn, I wasn't attacking you for eating meat and I wasn't trying to be "arrogant". Sarcastic maybe, but that's just me. When I read your post, the message I got was that you were making excuses for why you need meat and that meat is healthier for you. Every meat eater has pretty much the same argument. You said you can't afford protein supplements to quit eating meat. That tells me that you view meat as basically the only food protein source. Btw, where are these "scientific studies" you speak of? Maybe you should check out some of the studies on cancer and obesity (even in kids), related to diet in your own country. For now I guess I'll get back on my "soy-high horse".

Jackie, I just wanted to ask you what kind of iron supps you take? I take a liquid iron supp (brand name is Floravit) and it won't cause you the problems of getting backed up like the pill form. That's because it's much more easily assimilated by the body (98% is absorbed, or so they claim). I've been taking it for years and it's never given me a problem and I always take it on an empty stomach, with an orange to increase absorption. It might make a difference for you!

[nymph]

What I don't understand is that on one hand you (vegetarians) state "so i dont live like you, does it matter....", and on another hand calling "meat is murder", hence implying that meat lover are in fact murderers.

Does anybody else see the irony of double standard in this?

[nymph]

Crazy Hippie: Believe it or not I actually understand where you are coming from, it's like me trying to convince someone to spay/neuter their pet. I think the key word here is *respect*. Over-zealousness sometimes causes the exact opposite reaction that you would want to achieve.

Life is a learning journey, and part of the learning process is to discover other ideas. I am much more accepting than I was 10 years ago, the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

[mrjohndoe]

Whew!! What a lot of interesting opinions. One thing is for certain, that definitely this board is filled with a large volume of intelligent people. Wouldn't it be something if most people (aka the powers that be) could sit down and have intense meanful conversations like this!

Hippie, I have a great deal of respect for you or anyone who sticks by their morals/principles. Unfortunately, I've known unhealthy people from both sides of the fence *so to speak*.

The one thing I can say with incertainty is the further we are away from the food chain the unhealthier it is for everyone - vegetarian, vegan, omnivore, carnivor.

[mrjohndoe]

Originally Posted by iRONKNiGHT

Please, please, please don't eat pork, bacon or pig products that are not labelled free-range (which is most pork products). If a pig has to die for you - at least let her have a happy life!

FYI. Maybe you should use caution here as well. The term "Free Range" has been somewhat misinterpreted and is often abused as there seems to be no strict scrutiny under the label. I know of large "corporate farms" who in essence qualify and use these labels; however, pigs are kept in pens outside with same and sometimes less space than modern pig barns. Think of large scale cattle lots! Look for the term "humane free range".

[Schwinn]

Well, I apologize if I came off a little sensitive. As for the scientific studies I'm referring to, no, I do not have them at hand. I'm talking from 13 years as bodybuilding fan, and studying weightlifting and nutrition as a result of that. I've read studies that talk about meat as an important part of a healthy lifestyle, as well as reports promoting vegetariansim. My whole point was that I'm not a meat eater trying to justify it rather than just saying I do it because I like it. I looked at several different diets, and considered vegetarianism as well. The conclusion I came to was that eating meat is part of a healthy diet. Now, if you want to argue how the hormones and such in most supermarket meat is making the meat unhealthy, that's another issue. As for saying that vegetarians are much healthier than non-vegetarians because they don't eat meat, is a blanket statement based on incomplete facts. It only makes sense that the average vegetarian is healthier. They've already made the decision to become healthier by means which in thier mind will achieve that. The average meat-eater couldn't care less. So while the average vegetarian is probably very aware of what they are eating and how often, the average meat eater is stuffing thier faces with potatoe chips while watching the big game. That's also why there is an obesity epidemic in North America, not because they eat meat. People are obese because of how much food and fat they eat, and how little exercise they get. I have read the studies, that's how I know. My point about the supplements was that in order to give the body the building blocks required for sports requiring advance musculature, the body's natural reaction to the stress of consistant resistance, a very large amount of supplementation is required if one eschews meat. If you know of someone who is able to grow without it and is vegetarian, I can give you the names of several NPC atheletes who would love to talk to them. The fact that you suggest that you have plenty of energy without meat would suggest to me that you don't know a lot about nutrition and supplementation. Protein does not give you energy. As a matter of fact, athlete's on low-carb high protein diets (such as when in the "cutting" phase prior to competition) are extremely lethargic. Protein is the building block for strength and muscle size, not energy. That's why energy bars usually contain little protein. It weighs you down. I was using this as arguments as to whether it is natural to eat meat. In my mind, if it was not natural, then the body would respond the way it was meant to, without any supplementation required.

I've seen the studies. Obesity and heart disease is caused by too much McDonald's and sitting on your butt, not meat. Oh, and heritage and genetics. Is it caused by some of the hormones fed to cattle? Perhaps, but that is still a theory.

I respect someone who becomes a vegetarian for moral reasons, and understand it. Someone who does it because they feel it is healthier, that is debatable. Even the scientific community doesn't agree on that (otherwise I'd expect most nutritionists would be vegetarians). And whenever I hear a vegetarian tell me that I'm lying that I do it for health reasons, I have to assume that they aren't completly educated about both sides. It always makes me laugh because whenever someone tries to debate with, "You're lying!" it usually means they either are grasping at straws, don't know enough about BOTH sides of the issue to discuss intelligently, or are just to close minded to listen to anything else.

[mrjohndoe]

Originally Posted by Schwinn

I'm talking from 13 years as bodybuilding fan, and studying weightlifting and nutrition as a result of that. I've read studies that talk about meat as an important part of a healthy lifestyle, as well as reports promoting vegetariansim.

Great a fellow bodybuilding aficionado. I've read many a study just as you said. In fact in "Ultimate Bodybuilding" by Joe Weider he went vegetarian for a year and found it difficult to make gains. However, Bob Paris seems to have achieved a well sculpted figure as a lacto-vegetarian. But, I've yet to see a full fledged vegan body builder. Then again over the last few years I'm out of the loop.

[Vas]

Originally Posted by Schwinn

QUOTE=Schwinn] I respect someone who becomes a vegetarian for moral reasons, and understand it. Someone who does it because they feel it is healthier, that is debatable.

I think most of vegetarians here debate for moral issues.

[Schwinn]

How about vegetarians who aren't vegan? I've always wondered about that. I know the joke goes that "fish are ugly, so it's okay", but what is the reason behind it? I've always wondered about that.

[Schwinn]

It looks like the cowpocalypse has already started...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050609...91BHNlYwNvZA--