Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Off topic forum

View Poll Results: Is spanking ok?
yes 13 29.55%
no 18 40.91%
parent's choice 13 29.55%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 1st, 2005, 05:51 PM
lilith_rizel's Avatar
lilith_rizel lilith_rizel is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Meade, Maryland
Posts: 1,659
Spanking?

what do you guys think of this subject? Is it right or wrong. James and I decided that the only reason we are going to spank our children is if they have hurt someone really bad, or if they put themselves into danger (running out into the middle of the street while there are cars about, ect.)
__________________
"Every beginning is some other beginning's end" Closing Time- Semisonic
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old June 1st, 2005, 05:55 PM
CyberKitten's Avatar
CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brunswick - Nova Scotia
Posts: 4,852
I think our laws in Canada should be more like Sweden where spanking is against the law. I have seen way too many so called spanked children in the ER for me to even slightly neutral about this issue. I believe parents need to teach their children good behaviour but it can be done without violence!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old June 1st, 2005, 05:56 PM
Bearsmom's Avatar
Bearsmom Bearsmom is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orangeville
Posts: 1,070
Robbie has a nasty habit of biting when he's really ticked off. I whacked him one on the butt (diapered butt, mind you), when he bit my wrist and broke the skin.

Then again, he's also two, so we're learning what works and doesn't with him.

I was spanked as a child and am not a serial killer/damaged emotionally/ etc.

As long as you're not whaling the heck outta them....
__________________
Whatever you are.....be a good one.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old June 1st, 2005, 05:58 PM
kayla kayla is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 801
i think that spanking is the easy way out. getting your childrens respect and then using the parent dissaproval method works much better from what i've seen. my parents used to spank my oldest brother and he is completely undisciplined now, and has no respect for them even still (he's 31). with the next 3 kids, including myself, they didn't spank, and i know they can still make me feel bad by a look, and we all have much more respect for them. i think spanking teaches that violence, even though it's mild, is an ok way to deal with things. i think parents should set a better example for their children than that.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old June 1st, 2005, 05:59 PM
CyberKitten's Avatar
CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brunswick - Nova Scotia
Posts: 4,852
I am not certain a small whack qualifies as spanking. That happened to me as a child too and I turned out OK for the most part, lol BUT people who spank often and hard need to rethink what they are doing imho!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:04 PM
Jackie467's Avatar
Jackie467 Jackie467 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 887
I think it depends on how hard spanking is and on the child. With me I was never spanked because just a stern talking to would stop whatever I was doing (and I wouldn't do it again, I'm a big approval seeker). I was smacked once for telling my mom to shut up when she was yelling at me, it only ever happened once and it wasn't even a smack that hurt it just surprised me so much I never said that agian. on the other hand I have a cousin whos mother never smacked him, not so much as a smack on the hand when he was young. He does not respond to talking to or grounding at all. The state has threatened to take him away because my aunt can't control him (long story). then his dad started spanking him and all the sudden his behavior stopped. It's the only thing that works with him. When I say spanking I mean that there should not be any visible marks or bruising left, just a wack on the butt.
__________________
Jackie and her little babies.

Candi- Italian Greyhound
Cash- Italian Greyhound
Jasmine- Tabby cat
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:05 PM
kayla kayla is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberKitten
I am not certain a small whack qualifies as spanking. That happened to me as a child too and I turned out OK for the most part, lol BUT people who spank often and hard need to rethink what they are doing imho!
if it's hard enough to hurt, you teach the child that it's ok to cause people or things pain as punishment. if it isn't hard enough to hurt it's not punishment so they are walking away unpunished unless you punish them with your dissapointment or anger in which case why not just do that in the first place?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:08 PM
CyberKitten's Avatar
CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brunswick - Nova Scotia
Posts: 4,852
I did say small whack with the emphasis on the whack - maybe I was being too lighthearted when I made the comment. I was maybe "whacked" twice in my entire life but I do remember it!! I do not think violence of any kind is acceptable with your children, EVER!! I guess by whack I am thinking a slight touch - maybe whack is too loaded a word. Anyway....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:14 PM
lilith_rizel's Avatar
lilith_rizel lilith_rizel is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Meade, Maryland
Posts: 1,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie467
When I say spanking I mean that there should not be any visible marks or bruising left, just a wack on the butt.
That is what I am saying. I was spanked as a kid, and with some things, that is the only way I would learn....when I got to old to spank my parents would try to ground me, talking away all privleges; phone, tv, going outside, ect. and that didn't work well.....

I think in some cases, spanking is ok. I wouldn't even speank our kids hard enough to leave a red mark. Just hard enough for them to no they did wrong. Especially if they are endagering themselves or someone else......
__________________
"Every beginning is some other beginning's end" Closing Time- Semisonic
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:19 PM
Jackie467's Avatar
Jackie467 Jackie467 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 887
some children don't care if your disapointed or angry (I did) but for instance my cousin didn't, it didn't make any diffrence to him if his mother yelled, cried, talked reasonably, anything. Most of our grandparents generation where spanked and they aren't serial killers or anything, I know my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were all spanked. They respected their parents and loved them, and no they never feared them. I think it depends on what works with the child. If you don't need to spank then definatly don't, but some kids need it.
__________________
Jackie and her little babies.

Candi- Italian Greyhound
Cash- Italian Greyhound
Jasmine- Tabby cat
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:26 PM
happycats's Avatar
happycats happycats is offline
Senior Contributor
Hexxagon Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,665
No (or should I say not any more), we started out thinking it was OK, but when we did spank our son we felt terrible, and it was just a quick fix, and didn't work in the long run :sad:
We also found that our son started hitting other children .
It's really hard to parent, but the long diffucult way I believe is best, ,not the easy quick fix spank.
I have learned alot watching nanny 911, and super nanny, I have tried alot of their methods, and they really do work!! You don't have to hit, or even raise your voice, it's actually quite amazing considering I have the most stuborn, short tempered child going, or should I say "willfull".
I believe the reason children are "bad" is bad parenting and nothing more.

I ask you this, do you hit your dog to train it ??
If you can train a dog without hitting you can do the same with a child!!!
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is man without beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

~~Chief Seattle (Duwamish tribe)~~
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:26 PM
Bearsmom's Avatar
Bearsmom Bearsmom is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orangeville
Posts: 1,070
Mind you, time outs are extremely effective with Robbie (learned THAT one on Supernanny ).

I should clarify that when he bit me and broke the skin it was the one and only time I smacked his diapered butt. He learned the biting and hitting thing at daycare (which really annoys me), but he seems to calm down after a day of being at home (the first day at home, he's a wild child).

He's also at the age where he's just starting to express himself, and we're trying to teach him the positive ways of expressing anger.
__________________
Whatever you are.....be a good one.

Last edited by Bearsmom; June 1st, 2005 at 06:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:40 PM
kayla kayla is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats
I ask you this, do you hit your dog to train it ??
If you can train a dog without hitting you can do the same with a child!!!
I was thinking the exact same thing.

If one punishment doesn't work with your child, try something else, if that doesn't work something else, be creative, spanking shouldn't even be an option though! You can be firm without resorting to violence. It is hard to gain a child's respect, but spanking is definitely not the way to do this, it only gains fear. Children will get into trouble no matter what, I really think punishing them with violence for is a bad idea though. Not even so much that the spanking is going to really hurt them, it won't turn them into serial killers and whatnot, but it's the lack dealing with things properly that could hurt them. The parents are a childs main role model. If you use intelligent ways of dealing with your children, they will grow up doing the same when they are faced with a problem later on in life. That's my opinion anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old June 1st, 2005, 06:42 PM
lilith_rizel's Avatar
lilith_rizel lilith_rizel is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Meade, Maryland
Posts: 1,659
ok, maybe it isn't the best idea, after reading. What forms of punishment do you guys use???
__________________
"Every beginning is some other beginning's end" Closing Time- Semisonic
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old June 1st, 2005, 07:35 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
banned user
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 989
I don't agree with spanking, and I don't have my own children, so I can't say what I have done with my own children, as there are none. I did however, work as a nanny for a little while.
With toddlers, time outs worked the best for me. Always make the time out age appropriate. in my time outs, the kid were to sit on the time out chair, with hands in lap for whatever amount of time. if they decided they were going to throw a hissy fit and start crying, then the time out would be in their bedroom, with door closed.
As they get older, I find the best way is to not yell at the child, but if you catch them doing something wrong ... ask them about the beahviour. Give them an example of why they wouldn't want it done to them in words they understand, then explain to them why it is wrong. There are some really good books that you can buy about pushing, sharing, staling... behaviours alot of kids have trouble with.
As teenagers, you get them to write an essay about thier behaviour, what they did wrong, what they could have done better.
*shrugs* thats what I plan to do whenever I have lil ones.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old June 1st, 2005, 07:45 PM
lilith_rizel's Avatar
lilith_rizel lilith_rizel is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Meade, Maryland
Posts: 1,659
essays would be a great one! I think now that I am going to try the no spanking method when Judith is older.
__________________
"Every beginning is some other beginning's end" Closing Time- Semisonic
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old June 1st, 2005, 08:08 PM
Eleni Eleni is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: st catharines ontario
Posts: 1,057
I dont spank my kids,

I prefer not to see others spank their kids, but im not one to judge either.

as long as you arent abusing or neglecting you child its none of my business how you discipline them


Eleni
__________________
"I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old June 1st, 2005, 08:44 PM
Joey.E.CockersMommy's Avatar
Joey.E.CockersMommy Joey.E.CockersMommy is offline
Personal servant to Joey
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hot and sizzling Okanagan BC
Posts: 3,242
I will use time outs or take away a toy. I dont spank my kids but have friends that do and I still think they are good parents and they're kids seem okay. I think its when you get out of control that you have a problem, its better to walk away and cool off. One thing I feel is really bad is to spank someones elses kids!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old June 1st, 2005, 08:50 PM
lilith_rizel's Avatar
lilith_rizel lilith_rizel is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fort Meade, Maryland
Posts: 1,659
I agree with spanking other's kids. That is a BIG no no. Do time outs and taking away a toy really work that well?

I guess I could always do what my parents also did with us, during the winter, if we were in trouble, they would send us outside to shovel a 3 foot wide path around our yard, which was 1.5 acres. And during the summer we would have to clean up the storage room in the basement. I hated doing those things. James said that his parents made him pick up rocks and sticks.
__________________
"Every beginning is some other beginning's end" Closing Time- Semisonic
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old June 1st, 2005, 09:01 PM
twinmommy's Avatar
twinmommy twinmommy is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,139
I don't believe in it but

If we are talking about a swat on the butt, then I won't judge others.

Unfortunately, as Ck said , few parents are actually spanking, it often becomes much more violent than that.

IMO, I wouldn't use spanking to teach any lesson...ESPECIALLY not when you want to teach them not to hit/hurt someone!!

Children learn by observing our example...if you don't want them to be violent don't hit them.

On the flip side, we've all seen some little "buggers" who "deserve a good whack" but I think that negative attention just seems to cultivate more of the same behaviour.

God knows, I'm no expert. But you can always do better than raising your hand.
__________________
If you are wondering if your dog can count, hide three cookies in your hand--and give him two!!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old June 1st, 2005, 09:04 PM
iRONKNiGHT's Avatar
iRONKNiGHT iRONKNiGHT is offline
Crusader
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montreal/Glasgow
Posts: 795
Spanking are not for kids! that's a MAJOR NO NO!
however they are for grown up's! LOL!!
__________________
My imaginary friend thinks you have serious problems.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old June 1st, 2005, 10:12 PM
Mockingcat Mockingcat is offline
Cat Whisperer
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 130
Honestly, I was spanked as a child, and if I ever have children, I will probably spank them.

Don't get me wrong, my mother didnt' go insane with it. I can only remember being spanked once in my entire life. And it made a lasting impression on me. She spanked me because I stole a pair of 25 cent earrings in a store when I was 4. But I never stole again, and I knew how important that value was to her.

I'm not goign to stand by and watch someone wail on their kid. There's a huge difference between abuse and spanking. I didn't view it as violence. My mother didn't fly itno a violent rage and beat me. She calmly told me why I was being spanked, and then did so.

I do sort of resent the implication that people are making that parents who spank their children can't deal with children, or are just violent abusive people who can't figure anything else out. My mother is smart, articulate, and intelligent. She always used a variety of suitable punishments when I did something bad. To her, spanking was the ultimate, worst punishment for the worst thing possible.
__________________
Clover, Australian Shepherd Mutt
Loki, Shorthair Catbrat
Gizmo and Mogwai, Guinea Pigs
Tailchaser and Scuffledig, Gerbils
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old June 1st, 2005, 10:47 PM
Lissa's Avatar
Lissa Lissa is offline
Agility Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 1,402
I was hit as a child and although I turned out fine, I don't think that I can condone it.

When I was hit, it was because I was being a nasty, smart-mouth little girl (10 years old) and I probably deserved it. But I can never forget the fear that gripped me the instant before I knew I was about to be hit. Even today when I'm having a heated discussion (okay a verbal fight!) and I feel cornered, I get that same fear and it's really not pleasant as an adult to feel like I'm helpless!

I never want to have children but if I ever did, I could see myself resort to spanking so I only hope that if that time comes (hopefully NEVER), I will have more self-control.
__________________
"Animals are reliable, many full of love, true in their affections, predictable in their actions, grateful and loyal. Difficult standards for people to live up to."
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old June 1st, 2005, 11:10 PM
Cactus Flower's Avatar
Cactus Flower Cactus Flower is offline
banned user
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,769
I am completely against hitting a child. Light or soft, hitting is inappropriate behavior. You can't hit your child, and then tell them it's bad to hit other children, or that it's bad for adults to hit each other, or that it's bad to hit the dog....

Time-out worked well for me.
So did taking away the blessed Game Boy.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old June 1st, 2005, 11:25 PM
melanie's Avatar
melanie melanie is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,824
it depends on the kid and your laws. here in oz it is illeagle in some areas, an offense in others and to strike a child above the shoulders is considered assult everywhere.

when i was a kid my mum used to flog me black and blue, it never worked, just made me feel alot more angry, i used to become worse with every hit, i figured i wasnt giving in so jsut got angry and naughtier....

we use the naughty corner and removal of toys and precious possessions as punishment, it sure straightens a 10 yr old out when he looses his game boy advanced for two weeks, we find it really effective. with the younger ones its straight to the corner, nose against the wall (my aunts did this to me as a kid and it was far more effective than a floggin with dads belt, thongs, the jug cord or whatever mum could grab at the time) i absolutly hated it when i upset my aunty, and she would put me to the wall nose touching, it always worked..

a friend of mine smacked his 7yo daughter for using foul language (it was a swipe on the butt, nothing mjr). she told her teacher, and he was taken to the police station and he had to do a 5 week parenting course as punishment, food for thought.
__________________
REDUCE, RETHINK, REUSE, RECYCLE.. "We only Conserve what we love, We love only what we understand, we understand only what were taught"- David Suzuki....NO WAR.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old June 1st, 2005, 11:43 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Do I have to explain the alpha roll again? LOL, I don't have kids, I don't know kids... I do know that my totally unviolent step mother tried EVERYTHING with her son and the only thing that worked was spanking.

I think the threat of it is enough. My dad's fingers were like Italian sausages and when that hand would go in the air... every human ever born behaved a little better for a few seconds...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old June 2nd, 2005, 06:12 AM
Daisy's Owner Daisy's Owner is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 250
I wasn't spanked as a kid, and I don't spank. Lead by example. How can you teach a child that it is not ok to hit, if you are hitting them.

The absolute worst punishment I got, and it still sticks with me today was that I was not allowed to go to a sleepover, and I had to go to my friends house before the party, take her present to her, and explain to her why I couldn't go. That was horrible for a 9 year old.

My kids get privelages taken away.

There are clearly defined rules for everyone, and they know immediately if they break a rule, there will be consequences. EVERY TIME. And the punishment needs to fit the severity of the action and the age of the child.


Here are three examples.

My son is a crier. When he doesn't get his own way he sooks and cries. When he gets like that he gets sent to his room until he stops crying.

My step son, thought it was a big joke that he downloaded a virus to our computer that holds all of my husbands business records. He hasn't been on our computer in over a year. Right now, I am of course the big bad evil step mother, but until he realizes (which he still doesn't) the ramifications of what could have happened and maybe some remorse, he won't be on the computer. He's 14, so he should be able to figure it out.

I think this is one of those punishments that is going to stick with my daughter for a very long time. This was at the campground last year. The rule at the campground is Don't make me worry, check in once in a while. And if I have to go looking for you, your in big time trouble. My daughter went off to go swimming on Friday afternoon, a couple of hours later, she hadn't come back. Yup, I had to go looking for her. She had to spend all day Saturday at the camp site. And it was hot. And there must have been about 10 of her friends there that weekend. And she couldn't go swimming or go play, she couldn't leave the site. Her friends could come to the site and play, but she wasn't leaving.

Sorry, that was longer than I had intended it to be. I guess .02 turned into $4.00.
__________________
I'm Daisy's Mom, but that was taken, so just call me Angela.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old June 2nd, 2005, 08:01 AM
Writing4Fun's Avatar
Writing4Fun Writing4Fun is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,421
We weren't spanked as children - we were just threatened with the shoe (a la Eddie Murphy). She'd give us to the count of three, and then reach for the slipper. Just watching Mom bend down was enough to send us running. Looking back now, I remember that she always did it with a grin, so she knew she'd never have to actually throw that slipper, but it was remarkably effective.

Today's version is counting to three. When they're very young, it's "OK, I'll count to three, and then I'll come help you ..." (insert whatever it is you want them to do here, ie. "...help you put that toy away", "...help you get off your brother", etc...). Now that he's a little older and "coming to help him" isn't as much of a threat, it's "OK, I'll count to three, and then it's no more PlayStation for the rest of the week-end" or "no TV tonight". Time outs in the bedroom (with stipulations that there's no TV or toys while in there - just lie on your bed and do nothing) are working really well for the 5 year old these days. Being confined and inactive seems to be the absolute worst punishment for him, so I only use it as a last resort when he's being really evil.

I think the key, as Daisy's Owner has said, is to be consistent and follow through. I used to be very wishy-washy ("Stop doing that or you'll go to your room. Stop it. Stop it now. If you don't stop it right now, you're going straight to your room. I mean it. Stop. Stop it." and 10 minutes later "I mean it, if you don't stop right now..."). Well, he learned that when I said "stop it", it really meant "keep doing it until Mom either gives up or gets mad enough to carry you to your room herself". Give them an option right up front. "Stop it or you're going to your room." And then follow through. If they don't "stop it", then send them to their room. Don't give second chances and don't back down. But you also have to pick your fights. You can't punish them for every little thing they do. Is what they're doing really bad enough to warrant an arguement?

Whew! Hey Daisy's Owner, there's my $4.00 as well!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old June 2nd, 2005, 09:35 AM
Daisy's Owner Daisy's Owner is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 250
Quote:
But you also have to pick your fights. You can't punish them for every little thing they do. Is what they're doing really bad enough to warrant an arguement?
Oooh. That's also a really good point. You have to be consistent, but you have to be fair too.

Is it more important that your three your old has on the same colored socks or that he wanted to dress himself?
__________________
I'm Daisy's Mom, but that was taken, so just call me Angela.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old June 2nd, 2005, 09:50 AM
Princesss04's Avatar
Princesss04 Princesss04 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Veedersburg, IN
Posts: 3,140
Growing up we were spanked and when I say spanked I do NOT mean beat! I was never hit in a bad way! I do not see anything wrong with spanking your child as a form of discipline but I think it needs to be done in the right way! Dad always sent us to our room to cool off and he would cool off first! I have always been taught to never spank in anger, I will spank my children but I will not do it when I am mad and I will do it right. What do you all do for a toddler that would try and touch the wood stove do you just say no and let them go touch it or do you smack his little hand and teach him that if you touch that something bad will happen. I have seen children that are abused and that IS NOT spanking that is beating. And I agree that is wrong. But I know with me growing up Dad could have taken everything away with me but I hated to be spanked but my sister he just had to raise his vocie and she was heartbroken but not me. LOL So I think it depends on the child but I think no matter the child it has to be done right.

I am sure I will be burned at the stack for my stand.
__________________
Check out my new photo gallery
[url]http://www.pets.ca/forum/gallery/index.php?[/url]

Proud mommy to...
Meat Loaf (Brittany Spaniel) 13 months
CryBaby (5 years old)living with grandpa now
Chino (Doberman mix) 7 months old
2 new kittens (8 weeks old) Felix and Gizmo
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:42 AM.