Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > On topic - Pet chat, opinions, feelings and rants

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 23rd, 2005, 11:00 AM
Joey.E.CockersMommy's Avatar
Joey.E.CockersMommy Joey.E.CockersMommy is offline
Personal servant to Joey
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hot and sizzling Okanagan BC
Posts: 3,242
Angry Nice family buys nice pet store puppy

So I am on this other forum ask this person about their dog as its the same kind of dog that I want. Their dog seems great, they seem great. a lot like us actually. So I ask them how they picked their breeder and what questions they asked. So it turns out they got her from a pet store and they just lucked out that she turned out. Then I'm told they wouldn't reccomend getting a dog from a pet store as its probably a puppymill dog and their thinking of getting a second dog from the same store.
  #2  
Old May 23rd, 2005, 02:15 PM
kandy kandy is offline
Hazel's Personal Servant
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,742
WOW - they are very lucky that the pup was healthy and really pushing their luck to get another one! It's folks like this that keep the puppymills in business!
__________________
Kandy
Livin in a Newfie Drool Zone
  #3  
Old May 23rd, 2005, 05:33 PM
Dahlia Dahlia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 439
Well, a lot of people don't know that there's anything wrong with buying a pup at a petstore. I had no idea until I came to this board in March. And backyard breeders? That's about all we have around here. My sister in law has a 10 yr old Shih-tzu and she went to a puppy mill and got him. Never had a minute's trouble out of him. My MIL just told me a couple of months ago that's where he came from and I told her what I had read on here about puppy mills. She said that since then she has heard bad stuff about them but had no idea at the time.
  #4  
Old May 23rd, 2005, 05:39 PM
Dahlia Dahlia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 439
Just wanted to add that I got Sophie from a back yard breeder, I guess you could say. I found out a week after I got her that she had coccidia. We got that taken care of and then found out she had demodex mange. She's over that now, too. But at no point did I wish I hadn't gotten her. She's one of my babies. But I got her for free so the money I spent on vet bills was nothing compared to what a lot of people spend buying the dog initially. If I had shelled out big bucks for a puppy and then found out she was sick I would have been very upset with the breeder. It still upsets me that he didn't have a little more regard for his dogs, though. So now I know what you all mean about the BYB's and the puppy mills.
  #5  
Old May 23rd, 2005, 05:58 PM
kandy kandy is offline
Hazel's Personal Servant
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,742
Although I had some prior knowledge of puppy mills and backyard breeders, my husband didn't even know what a puppy mill was until I was talking about something I had read on this site. It just astounded me that he didn't know about puppy mills. His family only had two dogs when he was growing up, and both of them came from a pet store. I think the key to getting puppy mills shut down is to educate the public. As long as the average Joe thinks its okay to buy a dog/cat from a pet store, the puppy mills will stay in business. The problem is, the public already pretty much ignores the problem of all the unwanted pets, otherwise all pet dogs/cats would be s/n. If you started an advertising campaign about how puppy mills operate, people would ignore that too. Americans are really good at ignoring what they think doesn't effect them or if its something they don't want to face.
__________________
Kandy
Livin in a Newfie Drool Zone
  #6  
Old May 23rd, 2005, 08:43 PM
Vas Vas is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 89
There are people who had never heard of puppy mills and people who heard enough and still ignore where the dog comes from. One of the reasons why they buy from pet shops, is that they don't need to wait, they don't care how pure the breed is, nobody asks them questions and they get a cute puppy or a kitten instantly. A quick solution. And I hope that at least there are people who don't throw them away.
  #7  
Old May 24th, 2005, 07:28 AM
LittleLoves's Avatar
LittleLoves LittleLoves is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
Posts: 177
You know what? Before coming to this site, I had no idea what a BYB was, or that pet stores are supplied by puppy mills. So, Lady is from a pet store, and Oscar is from a BYB. Since I've come to this site I've been tip-toeing around hoping no one would ask! It's out in the open now. I am one of the horrible people who keep puppy mills and BYB in business. Had I known then what I know now? I for sure would have bought from a responsible breeder.

You shouldn't be too hard on people. They do what they know, and until they are educated you have to understand that sometimes they really don't know any better.
__________________
Oscar "The Grouch" - Shih Tzu (02/2005)
Lady "Ladybug" - Golden Retriever Mix (03/2002)
  #8  
Old May 24th, 2005, 08:49 AM
JDG's Avatar
JDG JDG is offline
IHeart Marty&Minou's Paws
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal, Quebec.
Posts: 571
Colin and I came onto pets.ca before we adopted any pets to learn about cats/kittens to make an 'informed' decision. . . .

I didn't know the ins and outs of puppymills before coming here, and didn't know anything about byb before hand either. . . . I guess we were some of the lucky ones who learned about them beforehand. . . . .

But in the end, cuteness prevailed, and we did the 'other' cardinal sin - and got our kittens from the SPCA. . .haha.

We too got lucky there too, Marty and Minou are the dogs bollocks! They rock. Our kittens never had to be in a cage at the SPCA, they were in a loving foster family situation so perhaps that is different anyways. . . .
__________________
Marty, Minou and Manny - the Moggie Crew - gallery: paulgraham.ca/gallery/Joey

Last edited by JDG; May 24th, 2005 at 10:17 AM.
  #9  
Old May 24th, 2005, 09:57 AM
SnowDancer SnowDancer is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,900
What is awful is to have done your research, travel 5 hours, see the dog - and his/her living environment - and the realize the person is a BYB. By then it is too late if you have formed an attachment with a pup.
__________________
:king:
  #10  
Old May 24th, 2005, 12:07 PM
Dahlia Dahlia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 439
Ok, what if someone raises pups in their backyard but they take really good care of them and they have ideal living conditions, vet treatment, the parents are show quality, then what? Is that person not a responsible breeder? I don't see anything wrong with that, but just wondering what your standards are for a responsible breeder.
  #11  
Old May 24th, 2005, 12:30 PM
levimh levimh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 397
That sounds like a responsible breeder to me. It's if they are selling them for the money and only the money that you need to look for. For example, I was reading the classifieds today (curiousity) and noticed an ad that said "Tiny tiny toy chihuahua or really tiny toy poodle, $800". IMO, this person is just doing it for the money, by saying they are really small - because people are always looking to buy little (little) dogs. A reputable breeder wouldn't mention the fact that they were "tiny tiny" toys, IMO.
__________________
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went."
  #12  
Old May 26th, 2005, 12:25 AM
JessXx's Avatar
JessXx JessXx is offline
Long Term Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Edmonton,Ab,Canada. Oilers Town
Posts: 263
I dont get it...
WTF??!?!?!?
How stupid. makes me sick
__________________
Proud mommy of
:love: Shyla- my american Husky (girl)-3yrs
Pepsi- My tabby kitten (girl)- 1yr
My cockatiel Jayson- 3months
Hailey- My cockatiel-2 years :love:
  #13  
Old May 26th, 2005, 03:14 PM
NickMali NickMali is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 25
Hi,

I'm new here but just wanted to chime in... My inlaws were "backyard breeders" who not only have pedigree quailty, champion bloodline, yellow labs but also registered every puppy they sold with the AKA. They are retired now and had Toby, the bitch, fixed. The stud passed away recently. They never brought in external dogs for breeding help, only toby and scout(stud). Also never sold a dog without a full bill of health i.e. shots, tracking chip, hip dysplasia check, etc. from a vet.
Just a thought, but anyone considereing backyard breeding should do their homework.

Nick
  #14  
Old May 26th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Writing4Fun's Avatar
Writing4Fun Writing4Fun is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,421
Just to clarify - I don't think "back yard breeder" refers to the location of the dogs. If the parents were champions, health tested (not just vet checked, but tested for genetic defects, etc...), didn't over-breed or breed "designer" dogs (I bet your parents would never have considered breeding "Labradoodles", would they?), bred purely for the love and betterment of the breed, etc..., then they were not (IMHO) "byb"ers - they were reputable.
  #15  
Old May 26th, 2005, 07:46 PM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writing4Fun
Just to clarify - I don't think "back yard breeder" refers to the location of the dogs.
LMAO...To funny.

Also wanted to add something.Champion in some of the pedigree doesn't really mean much.What does matter in a reputable breeder is that their Dam and Sire are Champion/Titled dogs.And that they have been shown.And are of breed standard.And all the breeders I know have a waiting list.And will not sell to any Joe Blow off the street.And they sell "show" and "pet" quality pups.And they have a non-breeding contract and a s/n contract.Also,here in Canada it is ilegal to sell a purebred without CKC papers.

My breeder bred GSD's for over 20 years.I was put on a waiting list BEFORE breeding took place.Her pedigrees,including both Sire and Dam where show Champions and Titled in SchH III.If I didn't have my boys neutered at 6 months,(neuter contract)I would have been fined $5000,this was for each.I have had 3 dogs from her.My current is a retired Police dog who worked with my brother.And I lost my other in Sept.

As for wanting to be a BYB and doing your research first,I say don't bother.Leave it to the pros.We have enough BYB's.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
  #16  
Old May 26th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Vas Vas is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 89
Should a REPUTABLE breeder always investigate a family and decide whether it's the right place to put a puppy for adption? Because there are some GOOD breeders who are registered in dog clubs, showing their dogs, taking care of the well being of their puppies, but yet are not investigating a potential buyer, not asking questions! All they do is showing how they care about their animals, how proud they are. Is this a reputable breeder?

By the way, a really reputable breeder will charge quite a lot (around 2000$ and more) for his puppy and that means that more then 50% of all animal lovers would not be able to afford it.That's why BYB are filling the gap between pet shops and reputable breeders.

Last edited by Vas; May 26th, 2005 at 09:44 PM.
  #17  
Old May 26th, 2005, 08:10 PM
Joey.E.CockersMommy's Avatar
Joey.E.CockersMommy Joey.E.CockersMommy is offline
Personal servant to Joey
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hot and sizzling Okanagan BC
Posts: 3,242
I believe a reputable breeder should ask questions of a potential buyer and vice versa too. I know enough that if I suspected a puppymill I would definately walk away. There is a pet store here in town and I now know about 4 people that have adopted ****zus I don't really have the nerve to say anything because I see these people on a regular basis. If someone is considereing buying from a pet store I would definatley tell them its a bad idea and ask them to research puppymills on the interenet.
  #18  
Old May 26th, 2005, 08:28 PM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by researchbulls
I believe a reputable breeder should ask questions of a potential buyer and vice versa too.
Exactly.And I know many breeders who put you through a ton of red tape.


As for this breed being sold for $2000,a co-worker has 2 Labs,a yellow and a chocolate,he does trials with them.He did not pay that much for them.And both Sire and Dam are titled.He actually payed $800.I don't of anyone who has ever payed $2000 for this breed.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
  #19  
Old May 26th, 2005, 08:42 PM
LavenderRott's Avatar
LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,671
IMHO - a truly reputable breeder has/does the following:

1) has shown dogs to a championship
2) has shown dogs to a working title (more of a necessity for working breeds)
3) has had the dogs tested and certified clear of any genetic diseases
4) has planned the breeding very carefully based on bloodlines of both sire and dam
5) has asked potential puppy buyers more questions about pet care and lifestyle then the puppy buyer could imagine being asked
6) picks the puppy out for the buyer - carefully matching puppy to new family
7) is willing to take every single puppy they have ever sold back for whatever reason
8) is active in some way, shape, or form with rescue for their breed.

I know of several rottweiler breeders who meet the above criteria and they sell their pups for less then $2000.
__________________
Sandi
  #20  
Old May 26th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Vas Vas is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by mona_b
Exactly.And I know many breeders who put you through a ton of red tape.


As for this breed being sold for $2000,a co-worker has 2 Labs,a yellow and a chocolate,he does trials with them.He did not pay that much for them.And both Sire and Dam are titled.He actually payed $800.I don't of anyone who has ever payed $2000 for this breed.
The price depends on the breed also. Sometimes small breed dogs are more expensive, large popular breed dogs less expensive. And a breeder who does all health and genetic tests will charge more , especially in US.

Last edited by Vas; May 26th, 2005 at 09:39 PM.
  #21  
Old May 26th, 2005, 09:09 PM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
Quote:
picks the puppy out for the buyer - carefully matching puppy to new family
I was wondering about that. My friend is getting a doggy from a breeder and the breeder picked her dog out. I thought it was weird, but I guess it's the way it's supposed to be.
  #22  
Old May 26th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Joey.E.CockersMommy's Avatar
Joey.E.CockersMommy Joey.E.CockersMommy is offline
Personal servant to Joey
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hot and sizzling Okanagan BC
Posts: 3,242
IF we get a dog from a breeder I expect them to pick out the best pup for us as they know their dogs best and I would trust the one I eventually picked to pick out the best dog for us.
  #23  
Old May 26th, 2005, 09:30 PM
LavenderRott's Avatar
LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
I was wondering about that. My friend is getting a doggy from a breeder and the breeder picked her dog out. I thought it was weird, but I guess it's the way it's supposed to be.
A good breeder has plenty of puppy experience. If an person wanting a puppy wants a great housedog but isn't into the great out-of-doors, it doesn't make much sense to give them the most rambunctious puppy. Yet I bet if that same family would go to pick out a pup - the rambunctious one with the silly antics would be the one they fall in love with. Makes for a miserable time for both the pup and the family.
__________________
Sandi
  #24  
Old May 26th, 2005, 09:33 PM
NickMali NickMali is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Writing4Fun
Just to clarify - I don't think "back yard breeder" refers to the location of the dogs. If the parents were champions, health tested (not just vet checked, but tested for genetic defects, etc...), didn't over-breed or breed "designer" dogs (I bet your parents would never have considered breeding "Labradoodles", would they?), bred purely for the love and betterment of the breed, etc..., then they were not (IMHO) "byb"ers - they were reputable.
From my experience I can say that proper breeding is rewarding even without being a professional. I wouldn't have my beautiful lab Rocky if weren't for my inlaws. I think there is a fine line to be drawn. Life is a beautiful thing why impede something that is so natural. If someone can find all the right information has a pure bred dog and wants to try... I say go ahead.
Backyard breeding is detestible because of the conditions of the poor dogs and the lack of love from owners/profiteers. They turn life into a sellable, marketable thing which almost pure evil. (think slave trade)
I'm not going to leave it to the pros. Thats like saying to me "adopt a child so your wife doesn't have to get pregnant" My dog is family. When the time is right, I will find a mate for him let nature happen. His family and blodline continue right along with mine Nothing said will change my mind of that.
  #25  
Old May 26th, 2005, 09:39 PM
NickMali NickMali is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mona_b
Exactly.And I know many breeders who put you through a ton of red tape.


As for this breed being sold for $2000,a co-worker has 2 Labs,a yellow and a chocolate,he does trials with them.He did not pay that much for them.And both Sire and Dam are titled.He actually payed $800.I don't of anyone who has ever payed $2000 for this breed.
No, labs usually go for $750 to $1250. Depends on bloodline... Rare like choc/red go for more. Also depends on location and season.
  #26  
Old May 26th, 2005, 09:43 PM
LavenderRott's Avatar
LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickMali
From my experience I can say that proper breeding is rewarding even without being a professional. I wouldn't have my beautiful lab Rocky if weren't for my inlaws. I think there is a fine line to be drawn. Life is a beautiful thing why impede something that is so natural. If someone can find all the right information has a pure bred dog and wants to try... I say go ahead.
Backyard breeding is detestible because of the conditions of the poor dogs and the lack of love from owners/profiteers. They turn life into a sellable, marketable thing which almost pure evil. (think slave trade)
I'm not going to leave it to the pros. Thats like saying to me "adopt a child so your wife doesn't have to get pregnant" My dog is family. When the time is right, I will find a mate for him let nature happen. His family and blodline continue right along with mine Nothing said will change my mind of that.
Glad you have your mind made up. I am quite sure that the following numbers will do nothing to at least make you think about the what's or why's of what you want to do.

Dogs listed on Petfinder:117,637
Black labs: 4266
Labrador Retrievers:12,000
Yellow Labs: 1,677

If memory serves, Petfinder lists about 70% of the homeless dogs in shelters and with rescue groups in the United States.

Ah, but I see you have a male. So, you will find the "proper" female and then take one pup of oh, could be up to twelve. At least you won't have to worry about finding homes for the other 11 puppies.

As far as comparing breeding dogs to adopting human babies - that is pretty thoughtless. There are thousands of women in the world who would give anything to have a child and are unable for one reason or another.
__________________
Sandi
  #27  
Old May 26th, 2005, 10:02 PM
NickMali NickMali is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderRott
Glad you have your mind made up. I am quite sure that the following numbers will do nothing to at least make you think about the what's or why's of what you want to do.

Dogs listed on Petfinder:117,637
Black labs: 4266
Labrador Retrievers:12,000
Yellow Labs: 1,677

If memory serves, Petfinder lists about 70% of the homeless dogs in shelters and with rescue groups in the United States.

Ah, but I see you have a male. So, you will find the "proper" female and then take one pup of oh, could be up to twelve. At least you won't have to worry about finding homes for the other 11 puppies.

As far as comparing breeding dogs to adopting human babies - that is pretty thoughtless. There are thousands of women in the world who would give anything to have a child and are unable for one reason or another.
As far as assigning the blame to me for a bunch of irresponsible breeders who can't care for dogs and find them right homes would be quite thoughtless.

As far as assuming i wouldn't care where the puppies go would be quite thoughtless.

As far as assuming that i haven't cared for homeless cats and dogs is completelly thoughtless.

Also as far as I'm concerned I'd rather help homeless stray humans who need more love and attention than the 17,943 labs you list there.

I ask: have you ever worked in a soup kitchen? Have you ever delivered food to a needy family at 10pm in the evening? Have you ever woken up at 4 in the morning to get day old bread and pastry from the supermarket to feed the homeless. I have. And I have half a heart and would not be wasting my time here if i didn't.

Please do not assume things when you don't know somebody.
  #28  
Old May 26th, 2005, 10:08 PM
LavenderRott's Avatar
LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,671
Not only have I helped in a soup kitchen (although not near as often as I should) I have also held countless puppies and kittens while they were put to sleep because there was no more room at the shelter.

I do not, for the life of me, understand the whole idea that just because someone has a nice dog it needs to have puppies. I will never - ever condone the breeding of an animal that is not done responsibly.
__________________
Sandi
  #29  
Old May 27th, 2005, 06:45 AM
Joey.E.CockersMommy's Avatar
Joey.E.CockersMommy Joey.E.CockersMommy is offline
Personal servant to Joey
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hot and sizzling Okanagan BC
Posts: 3,242
Actually I don't understand why there is not a fine for not spaying and neutering pets especially non purebred ones. What if there were strict liscences given out to pure bred owners that had to past strict tests to breed their dogs or they would not be allowed to breed. What if for one year no one bred any dogs or cats at all they could call it operation pet control.
  #30  
Old May 27th, 2005, 07:04 AM
NickMali NickMali is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 25
I didn't come on here to start a flame fest.
I understand your cencern for homeless dogs. The same way you held and cared for the poor unfortunate creatures, I've held and cared for newborn puppies. To say someone shouldn't breed dogs because of over population or lack of caring families is irresponsible. Why should a small percent of dog owners who have the know how be prevented from breeding because there are too many homeless dogs.
Rather than punish the minority why not inform the majority. Get the information out there to individuals who might not know otherwise. Besides, although thi may seem sad, the families that are willing to spend $800 to $1000 on a pure bred dog typically wouldn't go to a shelter to adopt.
From our experience there were weird people that came to look at our puppies but we never sold to them. Most of our purchasers were families who still send us christmas cards with grown up pictures of their dogs. I don't think we've ever sold to people other than families. We only did 4 litters total. I think there were only 42 pups spread out over 5 years... hardly taxing on any animal shelter...

I respect your position. Please respect mine. I only posted here to share my experience with others. I never meant to tick you off... However, I'll defend my position like the honest
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 9.09%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:05 AM.