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  #1  
Old April 20th, 2005, 05:43 AM
BEAR_NZ BEAR_NZ is offline
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withdrawing thread due to negative responses, and would like to accentuate to you all that the amount of pepper rubbed on my hand was absolutely miniscual, that our kitten is not damaged!!!she is sunny and bright and beautiful and we love her dearly.My brother is a vet and he thinks you are completely over reacting, especially when the tiny amount of pepper used was thoroughly emphasised.Not even a tiny grain of the pepper was left on my skin, only the smell of it, thus there was no risk at all that she would inhale any of it, i had completely been concerned about that.Our kittens instinct to avoid closely smelling my hand was amazing, she knew not to get too close. to answer some of your other points, our kitten has been hand reared by us since she was orphaned at 2 days old!!As a 4 week old kitten she is already toilet trained and responds to her name. She is not the equivilent to a four week old human baby!!! a one year old human child can not have children, where as a one year old cat can.we are amazed at how much she grows each and every day,and how loving she is.

Last edited by BEAR_NZ; April 21st, 2005 at 06:11 AM. Reason: NEGATIVE REACTION
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Old April 20th, 2005, 06:08 AM
Eleni Eleni is offline
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my suggestion is a squirt water bottle.

im not sure im comfortable with cayanne pepper, the reason it works is its unpleasant because it burns. i wouldnt want to experience it myself let alone let my cat experience it.


Eleni
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Old April 20th, 2005, 06:21 AM
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The kitten is only 4 week old ! to young to be taken from it's mom, and is probably trying to "nurse" on your finger, and bites when it gets no results.
I would not be trying to "discipline" a 4 week old kitten, it would be like disciplining a new born human infant !
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Old April 20th, 2005, 10:14 PM
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CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
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Oh please do not use cayenne pepper on a 4 wk old baby! I hate to burst your bubble but that is not a a braekthrough. A breakthrough would occur if this kitten had been never taught right and wrong as a wee thing and later on (say at 7 mos) learned not to bite a hand. There are excellent techniques to teach kittens how not to bite - using toys instead of hands when they try to bite. I much prefer diversion to puishment which really does not work with cats. At this young age, this little kitten will be scared now - even of humans. Sure, she may not bite - but that usually is something we worry about later - after 12 wks - but I would be afraid of you too if you put cayenne pepper near me. We get children in the ER who have eaten cayenne - they have respiratory probs. One woman used it for discipine and she was charged with assault by Child Protection and the case is before the courts now. her mother has custody and she will likely not get jail time but will have to take parenting classes and serve probation and will only have supervised visits with her daughter.

A kitten has an even more delicate respirapry system. She may get sick and perhaps you should take her to a vet now - her 1st vaccine is due in a couple weeks.

Last edited by CyberKitten; April 20th, 2005 at 10:17 PM.
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  #5  
Old April 21st, 2005, 07:57 AM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Your brother is a vet and he condones this?

I have taught countless kittens and even adult cats not to bite, and never EVER used any form of punishment or aversives to do so.

This is not necessary in any way, shape or form and I think it's very sad.
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Old April 21st, 2005, 05:59 PM
Karin Karin is offline
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With so many methods of training, why use one that inflict's discomfort?

Language, Love and Leadership. Check out www.parelli.com. Pat Parelli is one amazing trainer...his methods are not only used for horses but all walks of life.....it's all about respect.
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Old April 21st, 2005, 10:17 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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This may be one of those different countries, different methods...
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  #8  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 01:13 AM
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CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
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NZ is a country with similar norms and mores to our own. I don't think beating up your cat is any more accptable there than here. I have a friend who teaches at a NZ med school in Dunedin and she would never do this to her cat! She teaches psychiatry and says there is something wrong with your methods!

I can't believe a vet would say we are over reacting. I know he would never get my cat in his office! And a 3 month old baby kitten is still only the equivelant in human terms of a 6 yo human child. And if you used ANY amt - no matter how miniscule on a child that young, you would be charged with child endangerment - even in NZ! In kittens, it is worse b/c their respiratory systems are so tiny.

I don't doubt you care for your cat but please stop hurting her like this. Plus, almost all research on cat behaviour (I am assuming some .05% I have not seen) concludes positive reinforcement works much much better! Cats never respond to punishment - neither do most neings. You only help to create more behaviour probs.

Last edited by CyberKitten; April 22nd, 2005 at 01:19 AM.
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  #9  
Old April 23rd, 2005, 08:25 PM
BEAR_NZ BEAR_NZ is offline
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Cyberkitten, please heed your own advice, that most things do not respond well to punishment. Your verbal punishing and condoning of what we experienced has only made us feel really upset and bad. Your advice would have been totally suffice. We are loving people in a loving home and you have been VERY judgmental without knowing full facts. I am the first to admit that i would love positive pet parenting guidance from joining a web club like this, that was the whole idea, but my first experience has been awful! You have made me out to sound like a punishing, cruel and horrible person, when I am one of the most caring and concerned persons you could find. I am fully aware of the delicacy of a kittens respiratory system and would never ever do something to damage her purposefully. I had been baking at the time and found out totally by accident.
For all the people that i have apparently offended due to my post, i am truly sorry, and please be reassured that our kitten is fine.She is full of fun and energy and joy, and has been fully checked over by a vet.
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Old April 23rd, 2005, 08:53 PM
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I did not want you to feel badly as a parent or person but if I have suceeded in having you re-examine your methods, then perhaps it was worthwhile. You have to think about how some things come across on the internet. You may well be the kind animal lover that you say you are - and I have to take your say so at face value but I do not know you and your earlier comments certainly presented a situation that made me very upset for the kitten.

In my own experience, I have seen some terrible caeses of child abuse and have testified against such people - to threats - so I do not worry if someone is upset because I do not like that you use something I see as horrible pinishment as a way to educate their kitty and then they feel pleased about it. Frankly, I was appalled and did not know how to take your post. Were you trying to shock us? (some ppl do that for amusement to animal lovers - the joys (NOT) of the internet and then I thought maybe you actually did think this was OK. The fact you were so happy about punishing a tiny kitten (and that is how it came across to me - even if that was not the intent) left me very sad.
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Old April 23rd, 2005, 09:25 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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I have no idea what was said in the original post, I didn't read it before it was retracted/edited.
BEAR_NZ - I want to apologize that you felt attacked. Unfortunately, it happens a lot on this website. I was attacked on my first thread as well. I would suggest just sticking around this website, as you can learn a lot.
Some of the things I have learned here, have made me look at animals differently, as well as humans differnently, sometimes,most times, not in a good way, but everything is education in this world.
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  #12  
Old April 23rd, 2005, 10:12 PM
BEAR_NZ BEAR_NZ is offline
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Enough Cyberkitten.I most certainly would never ever post something to shock. I am sincere. My husband and I both feel very sorry for you having to testify in child abuse cases in your past... and we would like to let you know that we are not child nor animal abusers, the thought of either makes us feel ill. I know my post has appeared like we were punishing our kitten, but that is honestly not the intent that we had.
Safyre, thank you so much for your response. It made me feel a little better to know that others have felt attacked too... and that i should read and learn from the articles and not run for the hills, as some of the negative responses have made me feel.
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Old April 23rd, 2005, 10:18 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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There are tons of opportunities to learn on this website.
I was attacked for my first thread, was called manyt hings, told I was a bad person in genreal. my next few posts were no better. I was called a troll for daring to ask questions, and having a different view.
Read the threads. You will get a feel for what most on this website think, and you can make an opinion of your own. but they are a group you can learn things from. good or bad.
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Old April 23rd, 2005, 10:23 PM
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I would have liked to read the original post...I could get into trouble here by assuming what I thought was written. I don't agree with ANY spice/hotsauce/ whatever practices because my animals usually lick it, LIKE it, and then have wicked bum squirts later on... (speaker wire issues--don;t ask)

could you not use double sided tape for what you wanted her to stay away from?
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Old April 23rd, 2005, 11:30 PM
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I have felt attacked on this site too. I think it happens to everyone - epsecially when we are newbies here. I am not anymore, lol I kind of feel attacked now - by your saying "Enough". I am sorry you felt the way you did - and I kind of screwed up my last post (typing too fast and it is not my forte) - I did not mean to suggest I automatically thought those things of you - just that I did not WHAT to think.

I just reread my 1st post - I do not think it was mean - if you felt it was, I apologize. I won't apologize for holding the opinions I do and we on this Board hold strong opinions. I was just attempting to suggest other methods of training and I guess my analogy to child abuse is simply because I have seen what cayenne pepper can do to children AND pets for that matter. (My nosy choc lab nephew got into some spices and I had to take him to the vet - nothing too serious but he was ill for a day. Nauseated et al. So that is my point of reference for that. Frankly, I'd never heard of using the stuff as a deterent for cats - unless you did not want them on your property and those are usually neighbours who are Ailurophobes. And it reminded me of using antabuse for helping alcoholics. All it does is make them ill. I find it frustrating to have to explain this to you to be honest but you need to know where I am coming from , just as I need to know why and how you opted to do this.

I also do not know why when someone suggests something, it becomes this debate. I frankly do find that frustrating. I know in my case, I am attempting to be helpful. I can comprehend when we all get upset regarding breeding issues since that is a real point of contention among animal rights' advocates here - obviously, the person who probably never thought they were a backyard breeder before is likely to get annoyed. But there is a certain tenor to this site and if people would lurk and search the threads, they would know that before they post.

But to be honest, I don't understand why anyone would be upset with me simply because I disagree with their method of educating their kitten. Maybe I am too honest - I am not going to say it is wonderful when I do not. Possibly an occupational hazard - I get paid to give advice and treat very serious illnesses and while my patients all think I am a diplomat (One has to tread carefully in informing parents their child may have or has a diagnosis of cancer), it seems there are some people on this site who might say otherwise. Admittedly, it is a new experience and maybe online communication does not permit the real personality to come through. I don't know.

As for the child abuse, I still do on calls for the ER and just when I think I have seen everything and there not possibly be a worse case, something horrible occurs and my faith in humanity is tested again. It is salvaged mind you when I return to "my" oncology unit. Mind you, I have even had to report parents of children with cancer for child neglect and abuse and if you think you are upset by my comments about your kitten, you ought to deal with that. I do think the stress of a serious childhood illness plays into it and I have seen families collapse, parents divorce (especially if the child dies), pay less attention their other children and then have to deal with those consequences but I really have little sympathy for a parent whose child is undergoing chemo and comes to see me with unexplained broken ribs.

That said, I also see families grow stronger and become wonderful role models and mentors for other families who have to tread the difficult road of childhood cancer - or HIV, aplastic anemia, other hemotological illnesses.

Anyway --- sorry to have gone on. This weekend, I am dealing with a serious illness of a friend and it does not take much at the moment to upset me. So in the grand scheme of things, defending myself for questioning the way you train your kitty should not make me wonder why you have opted to single me out to pick on. At times like this I wonder if it is even worth it to respond to some posts. But I honestly felt I was being helpful and if U upset you, I am sorry. I still wish you would find a more positive way of training - and that is all I am saying on this subject (one that should hadrly be controversial, sigh!!)

TwinMommy, the original post was essentially recomending (MY take on it anyway) or maybe just shring is a better word their experience with getting their kitten to stop biting by using cayenne pepper.

Last edited by CyberKitten; April 23rd, 2005 at 11:35 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 01:32 AM
BEAR_NZ BEAR_NZ is offline
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wow. cyberkitten, what a long response...thank you so much for apologising,it was only your reference to child/animal abuse that we were upset by, especially as we had discovered this apparent deterent by accident, i had the cayenne on my hands after baking, and Bella steered way clear of me, not surprisingly. I found it amazing at first as in general she has been chewing us to pieces at every single opportunity, and this is when i posted the info. You will be relieved to know that we do not use this method in general, and i appreciated the advice that you gave me about diversional therapy with toys, as it really works. I have read some of your other posts and you have a wealth of knowledge, which is so appreciated.
For upsetting and concerning you i am truly sorry, i can certainly see why you would have reacted this way and even though i am a genuine person who has ment no harm, it is good to know that there are people like you that care so much and speak out against potential abusers. You obviously have a medical background, as do I, and that makes us care from the heart, and more sensitive to alot of things.
I am very sad that you have a friend who is very seriously ill,that is terribly upsetting and i'm sending you strength at this tough time. x
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Old April 24th, 2005, 12:01 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Just search for "wires tobasco" and you'll find 2 threads where people used tobasco sauce on wires and no one said anything about it. I don't know why in this particular case the poster go jumped on.
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  #18  
Old April 24th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
I don't know why in this particular case the poster go jumped on.
I can. In those threads, these are adult animals chewing on electrical wires. They could easily be severely injured or killed doing this. A little tabasco on the tongue is mild compared to an electrical shock.

In this thread, this is a 4 WEEK old kitten trying to play, who cannot possibly connect cause and effect, and should be treated with nothing but the utmost gentleness. Doing anything to cause the least discomfort to such a tiny baby is not humane and certainly NEVER necessary for any reason whatsoever.

BEAR NZ, I believe you love your little kitten, and just didn't understand that what you did is wrong. If you need help curbing biting and scratching (normal kitten behaviors) just ask.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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I'm sorry Lucky, but I disagree-- look at this post-- this person put tobasco on anything she didn't want chewed by her PUPPY. Nobody said a word about it. The discussion was originally about wires but went off on a tangent and nobody commented "Only use tobasco when the situation is life or death".
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showpost.ph...65&postcount=8
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Old April 24th, 2005, 03:16 PM
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Well, I think it might have been missed. Also, people use the term "puppy" to mean "dog" in general (I know I refer to all dogs as "puppies", regardless of chronological age or physical size ). My last thought is that there's a huge difference between using this deterrent on a 6month old GSD puppy (just an example, I don't know what kind of pup this person had) compared to a 4 week old kitten. But, these are just my opinions.

PS. I just noticed, Prin, that you've passed me in number of posts on the forum, but you've only been here since March of this year! Ummm... get on here much, do you?
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  #21  
Old April 24th, 2005, 03:18 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Not too much, but it seems I have a lot to say... I hope I'm not too annoying.. (this counts as another one...)
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  #22  
Old April 24th, 2005, 03:40 PM
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Thx for the kind thoughts Bear - sorry to have been so long winded and so cranky! (I need sleep, lol) I am glad to hear you have found other methods of training - that's great!!!
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Old April 24th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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I don't agree with the puppy thing either, but never saw that thread.

IF it's life or death (which it can be where electrocution is possible from live wires) I still say a hot tongue is better than death.

No one should be burning the mouths of animals merely to avoid annoyance or inconvenience or if they can't be bothered training or removing objects.

There are some things you just have to put up with when you choose to bring an animal into your home. If you don't want anything chewed ever or if you never want a scratch or a nip, don't get an animal that has teeth. Puppies and kittens bite and scratch!

Burning the mouths of puppies and kittens for normal behaviors is not right, anymore than it would be with a human baby who grabs things and puts them in it's mouth and even bites.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 07:09 PM
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You ought to try training an animal that really really chews - like a bunny - they love electrical wires and cell phone chargers and and... The only solution is to find a way to keep the animals away from them and pet proofing your home snd positive reinforcement are the best solutions.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Prin Prin is offline
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Boo was so easy to train not to eat wires-- he ate the satellite wire once and I showed him the wire and said "What's this? This is BAD." He never did it again. I'm so lucky.. Same with a pair of shoes-- he ate one pair, and never did it again.

My old lab on the other hand ate things till she died!! Depends on the animal, but you have to be ready for the worst anyway.
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Old April 25th, 2005, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
I'm sorry Lucky, but I disagree-- look at this post-- this person put tobasco on anything she didn't want chewed by her PUPPY. Nobody said a word about it. The discussion was originally about wires but went off on a tangent and nobody commented "Only use tobasco when the situation is life or death".
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showpost.ph...65&postcount=8
Prin, just to let you know it was her hand (fingers) she was putting cayenne pepper on.
The kitten was 4 weeks old, so not only was it an issue with the kittens age, but also that the kitten may become fearfull human contact.
(she claimed kitten was licking then biting her fingers) as I said in my reply post, the kitten was so young it was probably trying to nurse on her fingers and when it got no results, it started biting, which most young nursing babies would do including human ones! (just trying to clarify things )
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Old April 25th, 2005, 06:38 PM
BEAR_NZ BEAR_NZ is offline
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just to clarify, happycats, she was not licking my fingers, just wanting something to chew on as she was teething at that stage. The cayenne was residue on my hand after baking, and i was amazed that she sensed it and stayed away... and thats when i posted the thread. it was not an intentional 'punishment', but i can see how cruelly it could have come across.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 12:41 PM
Nancycakes Nancycakes is offline
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Overreact much?

I just joined and this is the first post I read and I think you would all do well to relax. You seem to be attacking one another rather than helping.

All kittens bite but they are just playing. Some are harder to train to stop than others. Some don't learn from their mothers because their mothers died and that's why they were hand raised. Diversion is good but what about when you can't stop to divert them? And don't tell me that I shouldn't have a kitten if I can't spend the time--that's just stupid.

We used to have a cat who didn't so much as beg as demand. He would climb on you when you were eating and push his head into your food. This behavior was allowed by his previous owners and the cat was very stubborn. One day we had barbecue and they had given us the hottest sauce instead of mild as we asked. Willie got what he wanted--a taste of the hot sauce when he pushed his face into my husband's plate. He ran to the bedroom, jumping about 3 feet straight up, shaking his head while still licking his nose. No doubt about it--it worked to stop him from demanding our food! And he did it to himself and he had no ill effects once the heat cooled off.

If your vet says it's ok, then it's ok. They are trained not to let the facts get in the way of their opinions; the rest of you are not. So be a little nicer and less judgmental. This is supposed to be a help forum, not a forum for berating people with whom you don't agree.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Nancycakes View Post
I just joined and this is the first post I read and I think you would all do well to relax. You seem to be attacking one another rather than helping.

All kittens bite but they are just playing. Some are harder to train to stop than others. Some don't learn from their mothers because their mothers died and that's why they were hand raised. Diversion is good but what about when you can't stop to divert them? And don't tell me that I shouldn't have a kitten if I can't spend the time--that's just stupid.

We used to have a cat who didn't so much as beg as demand. He would climb on you when you were eating and push his head into your food. This behavior was allowed by his previous owners and the cat was very stubborn. One day we had barbecue and they had given us the hottest sauce instead of mild as we asked. Willie got what he wanted--a taste of the hot sauce when he pushed his face into my husband's plate. He ran to the bedroom, jumping about 3 feet straight up, shaking his head while still licking his nose. No doubt about it--it worked to stop him from demanding our food! And he did it to himself and he had no ill effects once the heat cooled off.

If your vet says it's ok, then it's ok. They are trained not to let the facts get in the way of their opinions; the rest of you are not. So be a little nicer and less judgmental. This is supposed to be a help forum, not a forum for berating people with whom you don't agree.
Welcome Nancycakes.
Just curious how if you just joined you pulled up a thread from 2005? So much easier to go to each forum and read the more recent ones than to do a search. Even easier is to click on Today's Posts. That way you get the most recent threads started. Seems like you may have been a lurker (lots of folks are before joining Pets ). I've been a member of Pets for quite some time now and this is the first time I've seen this thread.

Stick around please. You'll find for the most part we are a good group. There are some small tiffs but we get over them. After all, we are adults. Differences of opinions are healthy as long as people do it in a constructive way. JMO of course.

Just from my point of view - If I had seen this thread before now I probably would have been one of the naysayers. Cayenne pepper is not necessary for training a kitten not to bite hands. Teaching from an early age that hands are not playtoys and replacing hands with a toy is the most accepted mode of training a kitten not to bite. But, and much more importantly, I see by the end of the thread things had been smoothed over.
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