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  #31  
Old March 18th, 2005, 04:24 PM
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Think about it this way: You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?
Snakes and dogs are two very different animals. I don't own snakes, so I don't know if that's true or not, but for dogs it is a completely unfounded notion. I had a lady call me and ask me about dog boarding as I do that sometimes. She asked about bringing their food and I said yes because at that time all 3 of my dogs were on BARF and I wouldn't let a stanger's dog eat that if they're not used to it. Also, it's quite controversial. She started going on and on how someone told her that when a dog eats raw food, they become agressive because they've now tasted blood. I laughed!! That is totally a mis-informed opinion, started probably by some urban legend. It's like people justifying putting a dog down because it's tasted blood and now it becomes some sort of evil creature or something. I can understand people not wanting to feed raw based on lack of time, but don't dismiss it completely because of a silly rumor that's completely untrue. I've never heard of a dog becoming more agressive or less agressive based on a raw diet.

Our border collie protects our 3 cats and our rabbits and loves playing with them. Since starting raw, she's never even attempted to hunt them down and kill them based on the fact that she's tasted blood. That's just sooooo funny to me!!
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  #32  
Old March 18th, 2005, 05:24 PM
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mastifflover mastifflover is offline
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http://www.droolingdog.com
This is a great site about raw diet and raw means not cooked that is the whole point of it. Cooking it takes out all the nutrients that the dogs need. I would feed raw but my job allowed it but I work very erratic hours and you do need to be consistent. I have a friend who had switched her Bullmastiff about 8 months ago and the difference in Jasper is unbelievable she is no longer getting UTI's she was very prone to them. She has more energy and has lost weight I have not seen any negative effects from the foods only improvements.
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  #33  
Old March 18th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?
ALL predators - from shrews to Siberian tigers AND snakes - have prey drive. If they had none they would starve to death, no?

Predators, like our dogs and cats, are born with prey drive. They may not be good at hunting if they didn't have parents to teach them, but the drive is still there.

Prey drive is NOT aggression. A wild dog chasing down an antelope is not being aggressive. It's merely getting dinner in the only way it can. You go to the supermarket to buy it, they must catch it.

Truly aggressive dogs aren't aggressive because they see you as a meal. They are aggressive for other reasons.

The notion that feeding raw food to a dog makes it aggressive is a laughable myth, and an old wive's tale.

What exactly would be the connection between a dog eating raw meat and being human aggressive? One has nothing at all to do with the other.
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  #34  
Old March 18th, 2005, 05:43 PM
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I agree with that. If a dog has a strong prey drive, it will be there regardless of the food. Or whether or not that food is raw.

Our dog rolled on a cooked piece of deer on the kitchen floor. Raw has nothing to do really with the predator reaction.

We used to give our old dobie a bit of raw meat when he was around and my cousin bit him on the a** when he was two years old and my doggy didn't do anything. If he had gotten a taste for blood, there is no juicier source than a plumb 2 year old...
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  #35  
Old March 18th, 2005, 05:44 PM
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My aunt had a dalmation (which in later years I think was partly great dane) that was fed cooked ground beef, veggies and rice its entire life. I think that a lot of that dog's health problems had to do with diet, but yet again, the vet told her it was the healthiest thing she could do for her dog, and she trusted her opinion even though other people in our family suggested some of the health issues seemed food related.

My pup goes wild over raw meat. She could care less if I play with kibble, but if I am cutting up beef, or venison or anything she whimpers and paws, and is desperate for the meat. Out of anything I feed for treats, raw meat is the greatest of all for her.
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  #36  
Old March 18th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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The situation that I am aware of, with the dogs being more aggressive, is that they ar more aggressive with other animals, not just humans.
And again, I did not say that this was definately, no questions asked, the reason that the dogs from this breeder have different characteristics, just thought it might be a possibility.
Obviously, some people on this site have very strong opinions, and that can put people off.

I don't feed raw, because I think it's completely digusting, as I don't eat meat myself.
Oh and LuckyRescue - you completely took that wrong, and i don't know if you were being a smartalec, or really did just take it wrong. I was NOT saying that if you feed dead mice to the snakes that they will have no prey drive, i said that feeding live mice helps to BUILD thier prey drive. Obviously they already have a prey drive, otherwise they would ignore the squeaky lil thing.
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  #37  
Old March 18th, 2005, 06:16 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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i don't know if you were being a smartalec, or really did just take it wrong. I was NOT saying that if you feed dead mice to the snakes that they will have no prey drive, i said that feeding live mice helps to BUILD thier prey drive
I am in no way trying to be a "smartalec". I was just trying to inject a bit of humour and obviously didn't do it well.

Snakes emerge from their eggs or from the birth canal fully equipped with completely developed prey drive, since they are on their own immediately. It is deeply ingrained and nothing can "build it" or take it away.

This is not my opinion, but fact.
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  #38  
Old March 18th, 2005, 06:18 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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I cannot prove that the BARF diet is doing that to the dogs, it may be that they are handling thier dogs differently. But, thats my experience. Food for thought
Just wanted to go back to the beginning and remind you all what I originally said.
I admitted that they may handle thier dogs differently, and this could be the cause of the difference in personality.
I admitted to not knowing what caused it, but I know that they feed BARf and did not know if that could have caused the difference.
Thanks for taking my head off.
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  #39  
Old March 18th, 2005, 06:20 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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Care to state the literature that your fact comes from, LR?
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  #40  
Old March 18th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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When John (bestfriend) got his snake, we did tons of research, and there were quite afew sties that advised against feeding live food, as it builds the prey drive, they are more likely to strike out, things of that nature.
Looking online now, 2 yrs later, all I can find for not feeding live is that the mouse might hurt the snake.
I apologize, there is false information everywhere.

Last edited by Safyre; March 20th, 2005 at 05:36 PM. Reason: typos
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  #41  
Old March 18th, 2005, 06:38 PM
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Natasa Natasa is offline
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Whether you feed live or pre killed, snakes still go though the motion of grabbing and squeezing their pray as if it was alive.
I’ve never heard anyone advise against live feeding a snake because it makes them have stronger pray drive, but it could be true I suppose. When that advice is given its mostly because a snake can get injured by a mouse or a rat in a cage. It happened many times that a not so hungry snake was attacked and chewed up pretty bad by a scared rodent. Other reason is that is unbelievably cruel to leave a live animal in a small enclosure to suffer for (sometimes) hours.

Or look at it this way…..snakes are eating raw food whether they catch them live or they eat them pre killed. Dogs eat pre killed, cut up, raw meat. Its not like my dogs see a chicken and think “oh this is what I had for dinner last night”. They do not hunt their dinner, its given to them in a bowl just like any other food.
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  #42  
Old March 18th, 2005, 07:11 PM
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Safyre, I know you never said that you were 100% sure that it was the BARF diet making those dogs seem more agressive, but implying that can seriously hurt the BARF diet's reputation as being a great way to feed your dog to someone who has never heard of it before.

No one is trying to take your head off, it's just that mis-information can cause reactions like yours, or Michael Bryant's with BSL. I'm just trying to set the record straight about raw food. I do agree that there are very good brands of kibble on the market. We feed our heelers Innova Evo which is raw food in kibble form. There are no grains and the kibble is held together with potatoes. That is the only food on the market that can actually be combined with a raw diet as it digests just as quickly.

Sorry if you felt attacked as that was not the intention. I just need to set records straight when people are implying things that I know to be untrue. No hard feelings I hope.
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  #43  
Old March 18th, 2005, 07:23 PM
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It's hard to sift through all the mis-information and opinions and I doubt that Safyre's misunderstood post will affect anyone's decision. I would hope that anybody considering this would do more than just check a doggy forum, no matter how useful it may be.

There are a ton of websites about doggy stuff out there that are very convincing but are not based on any research. And sometimes it is hard to explain to people that information they are very keen on and have already accepted is not factual. (I have a very artistic vegan brother and he presented me with a stack of scientific papers validating veganism-- only they were all from the same author...).

I think people come here for opinions rather than fact, at least they should.... Nobody's credentials are posted (except the Pet Drs...) and it is hard to know everybody's background here.

Like they say, decisions are usually 10% based of factual reasoning and 90% based on emotion...
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  #44  
Old March 18th, 2005, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
It's hard to sift through all the mis-information and opinions and I doubt that Safyre's misunderstood post will affect anyone's decision. I would hope that anybody considering this would do more than just check a doggy forum, no matter how useful it may be.
Unfortunately, that's how society is. Look at BSL. There were no facts supporting it, yet the majority of people in Ontario belived the BS that was spilled out of Bryant's mouth, and in the media. I'm not saying that one person's mis-information is going to change a whole lot, but I'm hearing more and more people say raw food can lead to a whole lot of untrue things. That's all I'm saying. Again, sorry for making anyone feel picked on or whatever else. I don't want this thread to get off topic, so I'm sorry for making it do that for a bit.
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  #45  
Old March 18th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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I want to respond, but not quite sure what to say. From what I have seen people on this website have VERY strong opinions, and don't seem to take well to questions, or different views.
I was only offering the experience I have had with dogs on the BARF diet, and thats what the OP asked for. I started very clearly that it might be the way they handle the dogs that is laos different and caused the changes.... I'm sorry if you feel that I should not have relayed my experience to the person.

I'll keep quiet now.
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  #46  
Old March 19th, 2005, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
I'm sorry if you feel that I should not have relayed my experience to the person.
Everyone has the right to an opinion, and you are entitled to yours. My concern is that conceptions like yours are becoming more wide spread and I'm trying to correct any misconceptions. I've apologized, and if that's not enough, oh well. Take what I said however you would like......
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  #47  
Old March 19th, 2005, 11:56 AM
Prin Prin is offline
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Has anything been scientifically proven here? Can we get some facts? Safyre is very entitled to her opinions and she is just explaining what she SAW. Nobody has a right to tell her what she saw or didn't see, or that she is wrong for posting it. If you want to be picky, referring people only to pro-raw sites is just as biased and misinforming. If you want people to make their own judgement, you have to provide them will ALL the info, not just the info from one side.

It's becoming the same style of argument that people have when talking about GMO. It's so rare that someone will present both sides and say, "here, you decide for yourself".

After budget considerations, and research on dog foods, I have decided to feed my dogs solid gold wolf king. That's my decision on the matter, and I hope that my opinion and misconception that dogs do great on dry dog food doesn't become any more wide-spread than it already is.
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  #48  
Old March 19th, 2005, 12:37 PM
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Okay, for the last time, I am just trying to CLEAR UP misconceptions that raw food makes dogs more prone to kill other animals. THAT'S ALL. There is no proof that I've seen backing up or dismissing that claim, except for the dozens of people who's dogs I know are on raw food and have never shown prey drive to any animals before or after the feeding. I can't run scientific tests in my basement, or else I would.

I also know that there are AMAZING brands of kibble on the market, but I feed my BC raw because she doesn't digest kibble well and gets sick frequently, no matter what we try. As I stated before, my heeler's are on kibble, and I have no problems with that.

If this is where the thread is going, then maybe it should be closed because now I'm feeling picked on and ridiculed for MY opinions. Kind of hypocritical, don't ya think? I apologized for coming off harsh, and my posts weren't just directed to any one person, they were directed to anyone with the same misconceptions so that they may look at the facts on raw before completely dismissing it because they think their dog will turn into Cujo! I'm done with this thread. I've been gone from this board for a long time, and I didn't come back for this. Say what you want, but I will offer no more responses or help to anyone seeking it on this thread.
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  #49  
Old March 20th, 2005, 08:38 AM
poodlewoman poodlewoman is offline
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my experience

Hi Im new here and Ive got to jump in on this discussion. Ive been a raw feeder for 12 yrs now and have certainly never had any animals dying of salmonella or having their sytems riped by shards of bone or impactions . Ive fed 4 dogs this way with 3 of those being raised since 8 wks on raw plus muliple cats . All I have is healthy animals with clean teeth and skin .
I didnt make the decision to raw feed because someone said thats what they do or from reading ONE book etc... I had heard and read about it from several different sources and made an educated decision for myself because IT MADE SCENSE TO FEED THIS WAY ! I have changed things along the way( I used to feed cooked grains which I no longer do-I used to feed veggies with almost every meal now it is 2-3 X a week) but I still feed raw and certainly not because it convienient but because its what I know in my heart is the way nature intened for them to eat. We may have changed the outside but we havent changed the inside.
Cilla and the gang
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  #50  
Old March 20th, 2005, 12:13 PM
MegShawnMom MegShawnMom is offline
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I'am going to hold my nose and jump right in. It was suggested to me that I only talk about what I know.
I had 2 b.c. with epilepsy,regular and specially foods didn't work. I was introduced to BARF,did major research and it seemed to be the answer. It was hard,demanding and at times frustrating. I has a seperated kitchen LOL
for their meals,each food group-especially veggies were measured to the gram,balanced so there were no duplications, suppliments.Raw meat was varied,again had to be chemical free-special trips to the organic farms.We were fortunate our freed was a freegraze farmer and we had an excellent source.We had to constantly revise our original package. It took over 3 months to get it close to what it should be. With our vet and all the test to make sure the intake was right we got it right.Our vet was not a fan of BARF,but then she didn't know much about epilepsy either but we learned together and now she is a real 'trooper'. Both our babies died 3 years ago,not because of the diet but because of the disease.The BARF helped give them extra time to be with us, healthier,less gargabe in their system.
It's a lot easier today,you can buy the prepackaged 'meals' in most stores,or go online to see who has them.Problem is like any supplier,you have the good ones that do measure-not just a few carrots here-measured to the gram and properly balanced.Take the time and money and go to a holistic vet and get it right the first time, this will save you time and money and a happier dog.

Yes, ALL animals have prey drive,kibbles or raw,at some point they will chase-ask the squirrels-and possible kill/eat.
The only thought I have-DON'T BEAT ME UP FOR THIS-is, if the intake of vitamines/mineral/essientals are not properly balanced they may be a chemical imbalance that may trigger a negative response.In this case an internal need to replace what is missing,ie: protein.Does that make sense.
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  #51  
Old March 20th, 2005, 01:50 PM
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Facts, are facts and myths are myths, I never in a million years thought I would ever feed a raw diet to a dog of mine, I was cought up in all the myths, just like BSL suporters. I assumed if you feed a dog raw meat, it would turn into a blood thirsty killer, this is a myth. But like so many of us, I was afraid of what I did not understand. I did a lot of research into raw, and found a place in town that has pre- packaged raw food for dogs and cats. Zena has never liked comercial dog food wet or dry, and I have tried them all, I was at my wits end untill I heard of raw, but the thought of feeding raw was appauling to me. I relized this was something I had to overcome, dog's have been living on raw for thousands of years.
Zena has been on raw for over 2 months now, and the differance is amazeing.
She eats every day now, not every other day, she is gaining weight, her coat is softer, and she did not turn into a blood thirsty killer, she is still the happyest most freindly dog I could ask for. Raw may not be for everyone, but it is an option if you dog is not doing well with kibble. Sable on the other hand is doing fine on holistic dry food, so I have no plans on a raw diet for her, But thanks to raw, I no longer have to watch Zena slowly starve herself, becuse she cannot stand processed dog food. I'm now a firm beleiver in raw, and a much happier, more informed dog owner.
http://www.healthy-paws.ca/index.htm
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  #52  
Old March 20th, 2005, 02:54 PM
MegShawnMom MegShawnMom is offline
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Good to hear that BARF is working for you. Please have blood test done on a regular basic to make sure that all the internals are getting what they need.
I ,unfortunaltely for a while was 'taken' by a supplier that didn't put everthing that a dog needs in the packageand it caused more problems at the beginning till we got everything 'worked out'
.Don't forget the chicken wings.
BARF/commercial, it up to you,just make sure you have as many facts as possible
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  #53  
Old March 20th, 2005, 03:48 PM
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Thanks MegShawnMom, I will do that, I'm rotateing her on turkey, beef, chicken, to make sure she gets what she needs, as well as a bit of yogurt. I'm still new to this whole BARF thing and still learnig, what do mean about chicken wings? Is this something else I should be feeding her ocasionally? I'm not sure I would trust her to chew the bones poperly.
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  #54  
Old March 20th, 2005, 06:42 PM
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Natasa Natasa is offline
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They do need bones in their diet. I would suggest starting with chicken wing or neck bones as they are softer. Of course, make sure you are watching her especially in the beginning to make sure she is not swallowing big pieces. Mine get everything (bone included) and have no problems. They finish lamb necks with no problems. You can also feed any other meat (lamb, venison, buffalo, rabbit, etc) for variety. I also try to give my dogs green tripe (not bleached) once a week. It has a lot of good bacteria and digestive enzymes.
As for supplements mine get kelp and salmon oil. If I have it handy they get some antioxidants (vit A, E and such), but not on regular basis and only those vit that don’t store in the body. Remember that over supplementing is as dangerous as not having enough.
I’ve been feeding mine raw for years. They love it and they are healthy. Not everything needs to be “balanced” every day. Mine get meat dinners 4-5 days a week and veggie dinners 2-3 days a week. As long as they get what they need in a week or two periods they are fine.

I know that many will not agree, but we’ve been brain washed by commercial food companies. They are telling us that they are the only ones who know what’s good for our animals, need for balanced meals every single day (think about it, do you get balanced meals every single day), its easier to feed kibble, etc……overall we are helpless without them and their expertise. Anyway…..

This is one of mine eating her turkey wing
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  #55  
Old March 21st, 2005, 06:09 AM
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Thank you Natasa, Zena is on a compleat pre-packaged raw diet, so there is meat,bones, kelp,veggies, and vitimins in every package, It's good to know I can give her wings from time to time, provided she chews them properly. As I learn more about BARF, I will eventualy make my own meals up for her with less kelp(she hates that stuff) I'm hopeing there is something else I can use instead, if I look around.
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  #56  
Old March 21st, 2005, 03:17 PM
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meimei meimei is offline
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Oh Please!

Quote:
I want to respond, but not quite sure what to say. From what I have seen people on this website have VERY strong opinions, and don't seem to take well to questions, or different views.
I was only offering the experience I have had with dogs on the BARF diet, and thats what the OP asked for. I started very clearly that it might be the way they handle the dogs that is laos different and caused the changes.... I'm sorry if you feel that I should not have relayed my experience to the person.

I'll keep quiet now.

I hate seeing conversations like these!
To the original poster..... who developed this silly idea... I don't know how you can quantify or justify your statement.

A dog on raw food is no more agressive than the same dog with a cookie, a toy or other goodie who simply doesn't want to lose a good thing.

Statements like yours can be very harmful and can harm entire communities.
Just my two cents worth!
MM
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  #57  
Old March 21st, 2005, 06:35 PM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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I said that there were different characterisitcs in the dogs that were fed BARF, compared to the breeders I have gone to that fed commercial food. breeders of the same breed dogs.
I ALSO stated that they may be handling thier dogs differently, and this may be the cause for the character changes.
Thats it.
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  #58  
Old March 21st, 2005, 06:44 PM
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Meimei-- it seemed like the topic was getting back on track. Please just let it.
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  #59  
Old March 21st, 2005, 09:53 PM
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meimei meimei is offline
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What's Really In Dog Food

For those of you still on the fence, here's a very good read which will help you better understand what you are feeding your dog when you serve up commercial dog foods.

What's Really In Dog Food
http://www.api4animals.org/79.htm

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  #60  
Old March 22nd, 2005, 12:15 AM
2Cats&AGolden 2Cats&AGolden is offline
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raw food

My 3 1/2 year old golden retriever has been on a completely raw diet since late puppyhood. She is in excellent shape and has the mildest temperament around. No health problems whatsoever, a dynamite coat with little shedding, no doggy smell, and sparkling teeth to boot. We feed a wide variety of meat, bone, veg & fruit, no grains or dairy. It has been a wonderful experience and has taught our entire family a lot about nutrition.

While research is in order, I find it patronizing when people say canine nutrition is much too complicated for pet owners to "handle" on their own. We feed ourselves and our children without a PhD, don't we????
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