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  #61  
Old March 12th, 2005, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Prin
What does "one of the best middle range foods" mean? I mean how can you have the best of something that's not the best? Eukanuba was $60 for 40 lbs and solid gold is $71 for 33 lbs, not much of a difference from middle to high. Wouldn't it be better to say "you get what you pay for"?
"?

Because sometimes the high end natural foods are more about hype, marketing and sounding attractive to the dog owner than about nutrition.

Especially when you get the hippie brand, ultra holistic, natural oatmeal, brown rice, boysenberry, bison and trout blend.
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  #62  
Old March 12th, 2005, 06:55 PM
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There is a lot more marketing done for the middle range foods than the higher end foods. You never see Solid Gold's name on anything. All you see is Eukanuba, Purina and other huge companies that make the "middle range foods".
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  #63  
Old March 13th, 2005, 02:28 PM
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Well I talked to Kikko's Mom.

First off,she says 6 cups is definately way to much.3-4 is the max.But see,she feeds Kikko canned also.And has since he was a pup.She has done this with her other Dobe also.He was also a champion.But passed away a few years ago.Nash,the other in the pic I posted is Nikko's brother.Amy's brothers dog.Also a Champion.They both have been in the show world for many years.

She has also stated that you should be working with your breeder on all this.They are more than happy to help you.She said not to push your pup to get him bulked up.He is still young.And you could be doing more harm then good.She does feed him raw veggies.Also,you should be working with your breeder about showing.Nikko and Nash have both been taught to "stack" as early as 4 weeks.They were both in the show ring at 6 months.But they worked VERY hard with them to get them there.

Question.Did you know you wanted to show him before you got him?

Also,she was curious as to what breeder you got him from.
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  #64  
Old March 13th, 2005, 02:54 PM
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She said not to push your pup to get him bulked up.He is still young.And you could be doing more harm then good.She does feed him raw veggies.Also,you should be working with your breeder about showing.Nikko and Nash have both been taught to "stack" as early as 4 weeks.They were both in the show ring at 6 months.But they worked VERY hard with them to get them there.
Yes, yes, and yes.

All this - training, socializing, teaching the "stack" should have been done ages ago.

Last edited by Lucky Rescue; March 13th, 2005 at 02:58 PM.
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  #65  
Old March 13th, 2005, 05:51 PM
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Training, Socializing and training to stack ARE being done (those things take time and know how) The time I have, the know how i'm gaining.

As I have been feeding him 5-6 cups a day for the past 2 - 2.5 months, and he's not overwieght at this point, I will say it's not too much.

I have been working with the breeder(owner of dam & he does not show) as well as having my dog evaluated by other breeders

My intention is not to "push him to bulk up", I plan to gain muscle through exercise. My vet and I both agreed that he is lean now, and I have kept him lean intentionally to help his bones while he grows.
However, increased activity = increased calorie requirments.


My post originally was to see if there was something I can add to his current ration to assist with this.

I do appreciate everyones comments and concerns, however, I am an educated, caring person who researched my breed, and breeder before I bought my pup. I was fully intending to show him when we were both ready. I am researching different training techniques as well as different performance sports for us to compete in. As we all know these things take time, money, commitment and a dog who can perform. So far, I'm only shy on one thing
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  #66  
Old March 13th, 2005, 08:26 PM
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Well since you did mention about the food and the showing,I only responded cause I did discuss this with a Dobe expert who does show.And it was her who said that the 6 cups was way to much.Something we have already mentioned to you.

No one here said you were not educated....

Sorry,but I have to ask this.And I am not trying to be rude.But you just stated that the owner of the Dam doesn't show?So she has no Championships or Titles?But yet the Sire is a Champion from Ultrasound?Which I know they are located in Owen Sound.It is my experience that a breeder using a Champion or Titled Sire would never stud him out to a non champion or untitled Dam.And vise versa.

My GSD's have come from Champion Lines,and titled in SchH III.There is no way my breeder would ever use a stud that didn't have either of these.

So sorry to say,but you just may not have a show quality pup.

Sorry,but I'm just trying to educate you about the show world.Something I have been into for 20 years.And I know quite a few breeders in Ontario.
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  #67  
Old March 13th, 2005, 09:13 PM
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Breeder's opinions are but one opinion, though experienced they may be. They are still coming from one perspective. Do your own homework, take lots of opinions in.

When I read absolutes like '6 cups is way too much' my alarm goes off. This person doesn't know the dog. 6 cups could be fine, nothing to be alarmed about.

Also, a CH is NOT a green light to breed, it doesn't mean the litter will be great and the lack of a CH is no certainty that the pups will be lousy.

A CH is not bad, it's good. But it is all relative.

Take for instance the Border Collie. Until a few years ago it was not a recognized breed and was not competed in conformation shows. The people closest to the breed faught for years to keep the breed out of conformation shows in order to preserve the quality of the dog as a worker.

Take for another example the versatile hunters. Setters, some spaniels , pointers..... By far the greatest number of these dogs that are bred are NOT CH dogs. Many of them will have hunt test titles, some field trial dogs, some NAVDHA tested, some no letters at all but are the best dogs at hunting. Lines that for generations were bred based on performance at the job they were bred to do.

Police dogs? CH is not important, performance at the required level is.

Seeing eye dogs. Ditto.

A top working pasture dog from the best lines, you'd never see in the conformation ring.

Anyway I could go on. I'm sure the point is made.

Most people that keep dogs in order to use the dog for its breeed specific function couldn't care less about conformation titles. They want proven performance.

IMO most "professional" breeders, as well intentioned as they are, are in the business of taking care of themselves, not the quality of the breed.

Don't be fooled.

OK rant fininshed.
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  #68  
Old March 13th, 2005, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
When I read absolutes like '6 cups is way too much' my alarm goes off. This person doesn't know the dog. 6 cups could be fine, nothing to be alarmed about.
Have you ever put 6 cups of food in a bag? You should try it one day. It is a lot of food, quantity-wise. To me any food that would bring the quantity down without affecting caloric intake is worth trying out.

It's like when you go to Ireland and you watch rugby guys pound down 49 pints of Guinness and you wonder, where the heck does it all go? If you put the full 6 cups in a bag and compare it to the size of your dog's belly, you may think the same thing...
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  #69  
Old March 13th, 2005, 11:19 PM
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Let me break it down like this...... my pup is fed SOAKED kibble at 7 am the dry amount is approximatly 2 cups (give or take a kibble or two)
We use AT LEAST 1 - 1.5 cups of dry kibbles in training during the daytime (sometimes as many as 5 sessions at different times)
Again at 7 pm SOAKED kibble dry measure approximatly 2 cups (give or take a kibble or two)

I know 6 cups sounds like a TON of food....and I agree 100% that's too much in one feeding for any dog... But, I would challenge anyone to test out the ACTUAL amount of food their dogs (in training) consume in the run of a day. Mark down EVERY single tidbit that goes into your dogs mouth..then at the end of the day... recreate it all and measure (weight or size) I'm really curious to see what ya'll come up with.

I KNOW exactly how much food goes into my puppy in the run of every day. I state 6 cups, because in REALITY that's what goes in within 24 hours.
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  #70  
Old March 13th, 2005, 11:34 PM
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Here is my break down for you.
My 62lb doggy gets 2 cups of food in the morning and 2 cookies all day (one for each dump) and then 1/3c food at night.
My 96lb dog gets 3c in the morning, 1 cookie (one dump for him) and then 0.5c food at night.
That's it.
And they run for a minimum of 3 hours a day.

(I only give them cookies for dumps because they were abused and sometimes it is hard for them to go as a result... If I was training, that food would come out of their night food portion.)
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  #71  
Old March 13th, 2005, 11:35 PM
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Are growing puppies in training?
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  #72  
Old March 13th, 2005, 11:39 PM
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They aren't growing but my doggies still train regularly. I have phased out the cookies about a year ago. I had a fat lab before and I promised these doggies I wouldn't let that happen. At this point they work for me, not for rewards.
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  #73  
Old March 14th, 2005, 02:04 PM
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db7, I agree with many of the points you make. Working dogs who are the best are often bred with no titles to sell to people who want a serious working dog. A dog who is the best at his job is likely to have very correct drives and excellent health in order to DO the job. No one would breed a working border collie who couldn't or wouldn't herd, either because of lack of drive or crippling genetic defects.

However, what Mona said is true. Dobermans are not hunting dogs, and no one with a Ch.dog would stud it out to an untitled bitch whose owner does not even show - either in conformation OR performance. Someone who does no showing at all is also not likely to health test for the genetic defects common in this breed, and there are quite a few and some serious.
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  #74  
Old March 14th, 2005, 02:45 PM
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Every dog is a hunting dog
And both the Weim and the GSP were part of teh Dobies foundation.

Here is a Dobie pointing grouse.
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  #75  
Old March 14th, 2005, 02:52 PM
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Dobes

Yes but rarely do you see working dobes today! I think it's fair to say most are companions or pets.
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  #76  
Old March 14th, 2005, 02:53 PM
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not bad on pheasant either!
Crystal's Top Gun de Scudamore, C.D.X.
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  #77  
Old March 14th, 2005, 02:55 PM
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And not be outdone! This is fun
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  #78  
Old March 14th, 2005, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db7
Police dogs? CH is not important, performance at the required level is.
Well actually it does help.And being Titled in SchH III is a BIGGER bonus.They need this.They need to come from Titled Lines.Sires mostly come from European Lines.And SchH III Titled.This goes as far as 5 generations.This also goes for the Dams.

I do know of an Can/Am CH Border Collie.And he is also titled in Herding.I know of Ch Retrievers and Spaniels,they are also titled in Retrieving and Field Work.And they come from Champion and Tiltled lines.This is what I have been seeing.

No CH or Titled lines to me means no genetic or health testing.

Well that's different since you broke it down.You should have stated that when we kind of flipped when you said it at first....

I did train my guys when they were puppies.And to be honest,no I didn't need to use 1-1 1/2 cups of kibble for this.I used Training treats.Then with Tron I used his favorite ball.Something most Police K9 Units use as a reward.When they do something right,they get the ball.I ended up also doing this with Yukon.I started their training asap when I got them.They were both 12 weeks old.

MIA,you are right.Most are just companion and Pets.
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  #79  
Old March 14th, 2005, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prin
. I had a fat lab before
Not that that's a bad thing....my lab mix is a fatty, no, wait, he's just undertall.
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  #80  
Old March 14th, 2005, 10:35 PM
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I do know of an Can/Am CH Border Collie.And he is also titled in Herding.I know of Ch Retrievers and Spaniels,they are also titled in Retrieving and Field Work.And they come from Champion and Tiltled lines.This is what I have been seeing.
Dual titles, or more, then you can really begin tohave confidence in the breeding.

There are so many opinions about the value of the titles.

Field trialers will say conformation breeders are ruiing the breed. Navhda types will go on and on about field trialers hell bent on style and that ruins the breed because the bottom line is style doen't put birds in the bag.

As for the health certification, of course it is a top priority to confirm your dog is healthy and also it's parents. But to really be assured of no genetic problems you would need to see the test results on the sire and dam's siblings, and that is pretty much impossible.
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  #81  
Old March 14th, 2005, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearsmom
Not that that's a bad thing....my lab mix is a fatty, no, wait, he's just undertall.
My dog wasn't really fat, I meant to say "lipid-endowed".... Do labs come any other way?
She had a 5lb fatty tumor removed at around 13... They sent it to L.A. to sell as a novel product for the stars' further enhancement. (not really, obviously, but they thought about it)
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  #82  
Old March 15th, 2005, 06:30 PM
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LMAO!!!!!! I think the problem started with his weight when our 2 year old started table food in the high chair... when Robbie didn't like dinner, Bear ate very well.
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  #83  
Old March 15th, 2005, 07:35 PM
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Your boy is a beauty and I must commend you because you sound like a very responsible owner. We get a lot of people who do not want to neuter because there dog is so cute but you have obviously done your homework. I do agree about tattooing your litter when the time comes you will be able to keep track of any that end up lost or in rescue. I would not worry about the weight he will fill out in due time you don't want him to grow too quickly and end up with joint or hip problems. Good luck with him and keep posting pics he is very regal looking
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  #84  
Old March 15th, 2005, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mastifflover
Your boy is a beauty and I must commend you because you sound like a very responsible owner. We get a lot of people who do not want to neuter because there dog is so cute but you have obviously done your homework. I do agree about tattooing your litter when the time comes you will be able to keep track of any that end up lost or in rescue. I would not worry about the weight he will fill out in due time you don't want him to grow too quickly and end up with joint or hip problems. Good luck with him and keep posting pics he is very regal looking
Thank You so much. I have been looking through different pics of other dogs that had Ch at young ages, they too seem to be 'lacking' in chest. But, pics of same dogs 6-8 months later show they've filled in nicely. I think I will continue on the way we are, I have added some yogurt (probiotics) to his morning meals, and have begun to ramp up the springtime exercise.
I do indeed plan to microchip any litters he contributes to seems a waste not to do it, and I would DEFINATLY want them returned to me if buyers can't keep, dont' want, whatever the reasons!
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  #85  
Old March 16th, 2005, 10:06 AM
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I would DEFINATLY want them returned to me if buyers can't keep, dont' want, whatever the reasons!
That's not how it works. Puppies are the property of the dam owner, and that is who they would returned to, not the stud owner.

The stud owner gets a fee, or pick of the litter, period.
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Old March 16th, 2005, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
That's not how it works. Puppies are the property of the dam owner, and that is who they would returned to, not the stud owner.

The stud owner gets a fee, or pick of the litter, period.

So VERY VERY True.....
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  #87  
Old March 16th, 2005, 08:00 PM
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let me clarify...... IF in the event the dam owner can not or will not take a puppy back, being the stud owner, I would DEFINATLY do so.
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  #88  
Old March 16th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Any breeder who refuses take back their own puppies is not reputable and I would steer clear of someone like this.

BTW, Bravo channel is starting a series on the showdog world. I didn't catch it tonight and don't know how informative it is, but you might enjoy it!
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  #89  
Old March 16th, 2005, 08:37 PM
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Then in that case,the Dams owner should not be breeding.I know of no responsible breeder who could not take a puppy back.

Question.You say the Dams owner doesn't show.Right?Then what line of pedigree does this Dam come from?What titles does she have?This question is coming from Kikkos Mom...

LR,Do you still have that link you once posted about the difference between Responsible Breeders vs BYB's?...When my comp was reformatted,I lost it.
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Old March 16th, 2005, 10:59 PM
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Awaiting my papers for pup. As soon as I have it, I'll post dam's info.
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