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  #31  
Old February 19th, 2005, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
If you breed two outstanding examples of the German Shepherd, you will ALWAYS get puppies who are like GSDs in conformation, temperament, and size and you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature.
Not True, what about recessive genes? A friend of mine recently purchased a Rhodesian ridgeback from a well known breeder, both parents were of champion lines yet two of the progeny had white paws, which is undesirable in the breed, there are no guarantees. You are also treading in uncharted waters with respect to this board, but there is the Nature/Nurture argument! While a dog may have inherited traits from his parents, there is a little thing called nurture. Just as all siblings are different, one may be as aggressive as a rabid dog another may be gentle as a kitten, despite similar lineage, so are dogs.



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Are these parents Champions or Titled?I think not.
I'm under the impression that many of you are breeders?
*smiles* So this is what it's all about? It really isn't about the dogs! *scratches head*
Dar.
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  #32  
Old February 19th, 2005, 11:40 AM
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Angry

I emailed the person yesterday about the westie poo on hobly.com for $1200 and asked why the pup was so much and why she was advertising the pup as RARE??? I asked if the parents were champions or titled or were offering great breed traits to their offspring etc. She wrote back that no the parents are not titled or registered. The dad is a westiepoo and the mom is a full blooded westie. She says they are rare because she looked and there were no others for sale and you dont see them. She was insulted by my email but wanted to clear things up because I accused her of false advertising. To me a mutt is not rare, it is a crossbreed. If the dog were $250 or even $300 that would be understandable, but $1200 WHO IS SHE KIDDING! I wish people would just wake up and realize these people are ripping them off with lies and false promises. Sure the dogs that come out of these situations are loyal and loving but the people that breed them are not. I am not speaking for the ones that bred for the blind that had allergies, my dad is a director with the CNIB and they have lots of goldiepoos and larbradoodles working for them and they are awesome, but they were bred for a purpose not for a fad. Sorry for the rant, I am just venting after getting that email, I didnt even reply i was so angerd.
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  #33  
Old February 19th, 2005, 11:43 AM
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Dobermom,

I agree 100% with you.

Dar.
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  #34  
Old February 19th, 2005, 11:48 AM
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BigDogLover, I am sorry if I did not address you directly but I reply to everyone and not just one person in particular. This is a Board, not a two person dialog. I was in a hurry and I do not always recall who said what. Plus, this site disappears on me so I have to write quickly! I could I suppose write slowly on another application and then copy and paste but I do not have that kind of leisure time. That is not a complaint, simply a fact.

I will be diplomatic and say your comments are simply not entirly accurate. Perhaps I should have said "good" science and I use the term loosely. I am well aware of the "evils" if you want to call them that that have been done in the name of science. Alas, it has been too much.

I choose to focus on the good however!! Working in oncology, I HAVE no option. One must remain optomistic!

My point was essentially that these quickly bred designer dogs (and I did not to pick on the labradoodle - it was just an illustration) in no way represent adequately done genetic research over tens of generations and decades. I know many dog and cat breeds have been developed over time. I just find it appalling that people as usual are thinking about the kind of breed they want and are not in it for the love of the breed. Someone who truly loved the labrador breed would not be breeding it with another breed to make a fast buck. According to the most basic definition of back yard breeders, all of these designer dogs come from byb's. - however well intentioned and irregardless of the fact they may deatly love their pets.

To put it simply, if someone wants a mutt - and there are many loveable cute and healthy mutts at any shelter - adopt one but don't pay $1500 for a so called "designer" breed and expect animal advocates to be thrilled about it.

Now, I hope I can post this in under 20 minutes! <g>
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  #35  
Old February 19th, 2005, 11:55 AM
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CyberKitten, My only gripe was that you took something I posted, and threw it out there, aside from that, You're an okay kitty!

There are two sides too every story, It's a good debate, however you have your views on science, I have mine, I'll agree to focus on the argument at hand, and leave personal subjective feelings at the barn door.

Dar.
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  #36  
Old February 19th, 2005, 11:55 AM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
A friend of mine recently purchased a Rhodesian ridgeback from a well known breeder, both parents were of champion lines yet two of the progeny had white paws, which is undesirable in the breed, there are no guarantees.
You will note that I said ".....you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature."

Since puppies are not clones, of course there will always be puppies born who are not of the desired standard, and those puppies will not be bred by a reputable breeder. White paws are hardly a health danger or crippling defect, nor do white paws hinter the breed's ability to do what it was created for- to hunt. But white paws are not desirable in that breed and those puppies should be sold as pet quality with non-breeding contracts. A disreputable person would hawk them as "Rare and Unusal" as breeders of teacup Chis or other poor standard dogs do.

Dobermom, that is precisely the type of person we are discussing. Ignorant and greedy and only looking to make a buck with no regard to health or standards.
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  #37  
Old February 19th, 2005, 12:04 PM
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Here is the ad
Rare Beautiful Male Westie Poo
Ad Number: 91003
Location: Mississauga, Ontario [Pets & Animals]
Seller: teddypups
Price: $1,200.00 USD
Available: 1
Placed: Feb 16, 2005
Expires: Mar 2, 2005


email seller | clip ad | report ad
Was not going to sell, but willing too. He is gorgeous 9 week old male. Non shed. First shots, dewormed, dewclaws removed. Health certificate. Both parents on site. Home raised, socialized, newspaper trained. Very Intelligent. Quiet and playful. The perfect companion.

Oh Good lord, he is $1200 USD?? thats like $1500 or more CAD
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  #38  
Old February 19th, 2005, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
You will note that I said ".....you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature."

Since puppies are not clones, of course there will always be puppies born who are not of the desired standard, and those puppies will not be bred by a reputable breeder. White paws are hardly a health danger or crippling defect, nor do white paws hinter the breed's ability to do what it was created for- to hunt. But white paws are not desirable in that breed and those puppies should be sold as pet quality with non-breeding contracts. A disreputable person would hawk them as "Rare and Unusal" as breeders of teacup Chis or other poor standard dogs do.

Dobermom, that is precisely the type of person we are discussing. Ignorant and greedy and only looking to make a buck with no regard to health or standards.

Actually we were discussing Cyberkittens premise, which I have refuted. Yes my friend does have a none breeding contract, and his dog is fixed. And no - A ridgeback is a Ridgeback anyone who does his research will know that even though this is rare, it is undesirable.

Please, will someone address the 'Labernois', aka, the Mira dog.

Dar.
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  #39  
Old February 19th, 2005, 12:26 PM
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There are enough mutts in the world already..

Not wanting to stir it up anymore but aren't all 'pure breed' dogs simply a mix of some previous breeds? A hope to develop or attain stronger albeit different traits or characteristics that have been recognized as desirable in both of the parents.

We had a Golden Doodle in our training class and she was a sweetheart. What traits were desired of this breeding? What did the poodle have that the golden didn't (other than size)? If it was just cosmetic then I would have to agree that monetary gain was the driving factor not a desire to develop a new breed better suited to a desirable task. Nor do I believe that these breeders have the smarts to develop a breed.

As far as pure breeds go I do believe you are more likely to know what you are gettng but I just met a couple with a newly nuetered Golden. A handsome boy with all the papers needed. The reason for the nuetering, a heart murmur (three of the six in his litter have the same condition). I also know a couple that is now on their third Newfie in three years due to complications with the legs blowing out. They have spent thousands on the purchase of these dogs, even more on vet bills and continual heartbreak. Still this is the breed that they want. My sisters perfect Shepherd did end up with hip problems as have many Shepherds I have known. I'll take my mutts from the local shelter anyday. I may not know what I am getting but it seems you take those chances anyways.

Last edited by twodogsandacat; February 19th, 2005 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Just read Schwinn's skin allergy comment regarding the poodle - it answered my question
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  #40  
Old February 19th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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BigDogLover, you quoted me in your last post, which is why I responded.

"Labernois" - I don't know - Is MIRA peddling excess and intact puppies on the internet for 1500$ - 3000$? If they are, then all of the arguements against mutt breeding apply to them as well.

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I'm under the impression that many of you are breeders? So this is what it's all about? It really isn't about the dogs! *scratches head*
I"m scratching my head too. Can you explain what you mean?
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  #41  
Old February 19th, 2005, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberKitten
I will be diplomatic and say your comments are simply not entirely accurate. Perhaps I should have said "good" science and I use the term loosely. I am well aware of the "evils" if you want to call them that that have been done in the name of science. Alas, it has been too much.
Which part of my post would you like to refute? science is science, it can't be subdivided into 'good and bad', *smiles* alas, these too, are subjective.

Again. I'm not disputing the fact that, many of these breeders are disreputable, or that a 1200$USD price tag on a mutt is ridiculous. What I am disputing is your original premise, it's flawed.

In the end I think we all agree that something needs to be done. How does one begin the journey of a thousand steps? He takes the first step! Then proceeds one step at a time. You start by saving the one by educating the one, knowledge will then spread like a rampant case of the flu.

Lucky,
These dogs aren't being peddled by Mira, as far as I know, but they are showing up in rescues and shelters like unwanted weeds. What gives them the right to propagate a new breed and not the breeders of the Labradoodle? Both are showing up in shelters? Where do we start to lay blame?

Dar.
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  #42  
Old February 19th, 2005, 12:41 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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As far as pure breeds go I do believe you are more likely to know what you are gettng but I just met a couple with a newly nuetered Golden. A handsome boy with all the papers needed. The reason for the nuetering, a heart murmur (three of the six in his litter have the same condition). I also know a couple that is now on their third Newfie in three years due to complications with the legs blowing out. They have spent thousands on the purchase of these dogs, even more on vet bills and continual heartbreak. Still this is the breed that they want. My sisters perfect Shepherd did end up with hip problems as have many Shepherds I have known. I'll take my mutts from the local shelter anyday. I may not know what I am getting but it seems you take those chances anyways.
Once again - "papers" are NOT a guarantee of quality. They are NOT a guarantee that a breeder is reputable. Papers mean ONLY that the dog is purebred. It could be riddled with genetic defects and still have papers. The AKC/CKC does absolutely nothing to curb bad breeding.

If people are breeding dogs with heart defects, HD, or other inheritable bad traits, they are NOT GOOD BREEDERS, no matter if they have a million registration papers.

For anyone wanting to buy a purebred puppy it's up to them to make sure the breeder is doing everything possible to better the breed and to do it right.

"Let the buyer beware". Do your homework!
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  #43  
Old February 19th, 2005, 01:06 PM
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what a labernois?

as far as purebred dogs go there seems to be some assumptionthat a champion will put out the best pet??? I don't think so. Champions are bred for form shape and looks not necessarily temperament. Just because they are a champion doesn't mean that they are going to be any better pet than one that isn't. So that doesn't work for me.

Cyberkitty - you obviousy haven't researched how the ragdoll got started - believe me there was ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENCE in that - the woman was wacky!!! As with every breed now there are those with knowledge and who are doing breeding to better the breed and those who aren't.

Quote:
If people are breeding dogs with heart defects, HD, or other inheritable bad traits, they are NOT GOOD BREEDERS, no matter if they have a million registration papers
i don't think anyone is disputing that point - i don't see why it keeps coming up.
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  #44  
Old February 19th, 2005, 01:22 PM
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I love the metaphor of knowledge spreading like a rampant case of the flu - that's priceless, <g> I may use that in one of my lectures sometime if you don't mind! (I will give you credit- "someone with the avatar of BigDog Lover though is all I can attribute -- )

At this point, I am not even sure what my original premise was, lol I just wanted to raise the issue of designer breeds - and express my opposition to the indiscriminate breeding of dogs (or any animal for that matter). I utilize the term "indiscriminate" because I do think some genetic work warrants approval but only if it is done in an ethical manner - backed over time by critical and the well known established protocols of research.

Even then, I think one needs to ask hard querstions. Did anyone see the CNN segment last night on the Liger - a cross between a tiger and a lion? Yet more cross breeding. Does this advance the health of the lion or the tiger?

I dare not raise the whole issue of natural selection - we have already opened the genie bottle and there is no turning back. Fish farming, frankenfoods, chickens raised to give us eggs that are supposedly better for us.

With these dogs, I guess the tampering with nature bothers me but the profiterring from live beings upsets me more.

I was being extremely "general" in my reference to good and bad science. Bad science leads me to think of Frankenfoods, Franekenstein even, and that other monster Hitler et al and their experiments. There is still "bad" science today of course - the debate over cloning. The science behind cloning may be "progressive" and even exiting but do I really want to clone my kitten? Especially when Dolly had so many medical problems! (But I digress!) I guess as a physician I see "good" science as science that is used to help humankind in some positive way. "Bad" science conjures up atomic weapons, biological warfare and drugs like thalidomide. However, the same scientific discoveries hehind atomic weapons also gave us radiology - which helps saves lives of people with cancer- (Marie Curie, one of my idols died of cancer resulting from her work wirh Xrays and one suspects she was still pleased with her work) and the research that led to biological weapons also gave us many medical breakthroughs. In the end, it is how we as humans utilize the science and our own skills.

I consider it unethical for someone to breed these animals in their home (or back yard of you will) simply to make a profit. They may love their animals but it is really tough to see how they have actually considered the overall impact of their work on the population.


[
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  #45  
Old February 19th, 2005, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
wonder if there would be less dogs in shelters if in fact the breeds were changing to more fit in with the 21st century family ? If more people got lower energy pets instead of herding breeds for instance, I wonder of less would get dropped off because the family can't handle the workload.
GOOD POINT! We got our mixed breed and boy if we weren't committed people she would have been sent back! She was not at all like what we thought we were getting. She was a quiet mild mannered little thing that turns out to be a wily energetic bouncing herding dog! sheesh.

I agree - too many dogs have instincts that don't 'fit' our lifestyles today

Quote:
Good sentence CK - I too opose indiscriminate breeding, but I am unwilling to accept point blank that any and all cross breed breeding is indeed indiscriminate.
that pretty much sums it up for me too.
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  #46  
Old February 19th, 2005, 03:02 PM
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No we are not breeders.So you can stop scratching your head.

I have never looked at showing any of my dogs.Which by the way are GSD's.I wanted a pet,along with one being used for the Police Force.But my breeder was showing and did have Titled dogs.Did any of this mean anything to me?YES.These dogs where of breed standard.They were not just show dogs,but working dogs.And yes,they are also bred for temperment.Do you actually think that if a breeder has a shy or even a bit of an aggresive that they will breed?Heck no.

The reson alot of these dogs are put in the pounds and shelters is that they did not research the breed.They bought on impulse.Didn't bother to think it through if the pup/dog does fit their lifestyle.And then their are the excuses.

Oh,by the way,neither Irish Wolfhounds or the Elk Hound is extinct.
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  #47  
Old February 19th, 2005, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzmanian
"Dobermom, that is precisely the type of person we are discussing. Ignorant and greedy and only looking to make a buck with no regard to health or standards."

And yet dobermans are now considered a breed, and their breeders can be listed in the "responsible" catagory.


She wasnt talking about dobermans, just what I had posted earlier about the $1200 USD westiepoo and my name on here is dobermom80
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  #48  
Old February 19th, 2005, 03:52 PM
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LOL its ok, I wasnt offended
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  #49  
Old February 19th, 2005, 04:07 PM
meowzart meowzart is offline
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Do you actually think that if a breeder has a shy or even a bit of an aggresive that they will breed?Heck no.
well you certainly live in a more idealistic world than I!

Because the the answer is that breeders DO sacrifice health or temperament for 'show' form. You haven't delved into the breeding world far enough if you think that doesn't happen!!!!!!!

Not that I think that they are GOOD breeders but ...
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  #50  
Old February 19th, 2005, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzart

Because the the answer is that breeders DO sacrifice health or temperament for 'show' form. You haven't delved into the breeding world far enough if you think that doesn't happen!!!!!!!
Oh trust me I have been.For the past 20 years.I am involved in the dog shows.I am also involved with the CKC.So yes,I know enough there is to know.
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  #51  
Old February 19th, 2005, 05:50 PM
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You're right.And you can get dogs with papers in rescue,as well as purebred puppies.I don't see any need to go to a breeder.The worst of course are those who's breed are killed in shelters all the time.People who go to breeders for those dogs make me ill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
Once again - "papers" are NOT a guarantee of quality. They are NOT a guarantee that a breeder is reputable. Papers mean ONLY that the dog is purebred. It could be riddled with genetic defects and still have papers. The AKC/CKC does absolutely nothing to curb bad breeding.

For anyone wanting to buy a purebred puppy it's up to them to make sure the breeder is doing everything possible to better the breed and to do it right.

"Let the buyer beware". Do your homework!
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  #52  
Old February 19th, 2005, 05:52 PM
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Sadly you are right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzart
well you certainly live in a more idealistic world than I!

Because the the answer is that breeders DO sacrifice health or temperament for 'show' form. You haven't delved into the breeding world far enough if you think that doesn't happen!!!!!!!

Not that I think that they are GOOD breeders but ...
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  #53  
Old February 19th, 2005, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LL1
People who go to breeders for those dogs make me ill.
Guess I'm one of those people...........

And I guess all the K-9 officers too.Hmmmm,I will have to tell my brother and his buddies that.
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  #54  
Old February 19th, 2005, 06:27 PM
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I guess you are.Companion owners are also very different than those that need working dogs from proven lines.I understand some forces use rescues BTW.You'd be surprised what rescues can do.
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Old February 19th, 2005, 06:55 PM
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Actually they don't.I know this not only because my brother is on the K-9 unit,but because I too am on the force.Their dogs come from breeders who are titled in SchH III.The sires are imported from Europe.The force will not take a dog on till they are 18 months old.So untill then,they are fostered out for 18months.They are taught all basic commands and then some.The majority of the time they are taught in German.How do I know this?I have my brothers partner Tron.I was the one who did all of his basic training.I did all the socializing.Getting used to all the different sites and sounds.This all took alot of hard work.Then when he was 18 months,my brother took him.He went through Obedience and passed.Then he went on to the SchH.He passed with flying colours.Tron retired a little over a year ago.He came back home to me.
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  #56  
Old February 19th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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It's very true that breeders will continue to breed dogs with "iffy" temperaments, and even human aggression if the dog is a winner in conformation or performance. I saw this myself recently when a (gasp!) Golden Retriever savagely attacked it's handler for no reason and continued with the showing while the handler went to the emergency room. However, they are not the definition of "responsible and ethical breeders" we are discussing.

As for going to breeders - if I had my heart set on a King Cavalier Spaniel, a Lowchen, Norwich Terrier, or a Swedish Vallhund, chances are I would have to go to a breeder. (Or I can wait til Disney features them in a movie and they are aquired and dumped en masse after bybers start pumping them out. )

If I wanted a husky, Lab or pit bull, I would never go to a breeder as I would unfortunately have my pick at both shelters and rescues.

Quote:
These dogs aren't being peddled by Mira, as far as I know, but they are showing up in rescues and shelters like unwanted weeds. What gives them the right to propagate a new breed and not the breeders of the Labradoodle? Both are showing up in shelters? Where do we start to lay blame?
You know for a fact that these dogs were bred and discarded by MIRA? If Mira is breeding and dumping puppies at shelters, they are no better than any other backyard breeder and should be regarded as such. Many breeds can be used as service and guide dogs, and there is no reason to be breeding for this, as the odds of getting suitable puppies by breeding is no better than pulling dogs from shelters and training them for this work.
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  #57  
Old February 19th, 2005, 07:16 PM
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I have to agree with Lucky. It depends on the breed of dog or cat or rabbit (perhaps I should just say pet) you are seeking where you find your pet. This thread was supposed to be about desinger breeds and we have gone a bit astray - pun intended - but for some breeds, one probably has no choice but to either go to a reputable breeder found through shows or the various networks or to a specific breed rescue organization. I suppose it depends on the popularity of the breed as you pointed out Lucky.

I recently read that less than 10% of kittens purchased from breeders end up in a rescue organization. Mind you, I have to determine how that correlates with the 25% of animal shelters that are purebred animals. But it is true that someone who spends much time researching a breed and finding the proper breed for her or him will likely surrender the pet unless forced to by some disaster in their own life.

And yes, there are many breeds whose purpose is almost rendered redundant by the kind of society we have now. There are many border collies yet how many people truly require a herding dog? And so many more of us are urbanites who work fulltime and need to factor our lifestyle in.
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  #58  
Old February 19th, 2005, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
Many breeds can be used as service and guide dogs, and there is no reason to be breeding for this, as the odds of getting suitable puppies by breeding is no better than pulling dogs from shelters and training them for this work.
True to a point.But remember most of these dogs/pups in the shelters have not been health or genetic tested.Which you and I know is very important,because this is what we talk about alot.... And nothing is known about the parents.This is why the odds are much higher getting a suitable pup from a breeder with titled dogs then from shelters.Assistance dogs do come from the shelters though.
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  #59  
Old February 19th, 2005, 07:30 PM
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Don't what?
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Originally Posted by mona_b
Actually they don't..
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  #60  
Old February 19th, 2005, 07:33 PM
LL1 LL1 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2004
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Too right Lucky on all counts.And you can also add alot of other top breeds being killed to that list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
It's very true that breeders will continue to breed dogs with "iffy" temperaments, and even human aggression if the dog is a winner in conformation or performance.
If I wanted a husky, Lab or pit bull, I would never go to a breeder as I would unfortunately have my pick at both shelters and rescues.

Many breeds can be used as service and guide dogs, and there is no reason to be breeding for this, as the odds of getting suitable puppies by breeding is no better than pulling dogs from shelters and training them for this work.
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