Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > General Forum for cats and dogs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 16th, 2005, 04:48 PM
CyberKitten's Avatar
CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brunswick - Nova Scotia
Posts: 4,852
Designer Breeds

Hi,

I wanted to post a reply (because a response I made had been criticized and we need to dialogue here -why else have a bulletin board) and I logged on only to discover the thread closed. I have a VERY busy medical practice and can only log on at certain times so I think we need to keep that in mind before closing a thread. I understand the rationale but I also promote free speech!!!

I wanted to note that my point had been about the very idea of a Morkie breed. I was not expecting the individual who adopted a Morkie to be defensive. I for one did not know what a Morkie was until I read it was a designer breed, an issue I do know soemthing about. My comments were meant to be educational and not hurtful.

Indeed, many consumers do not realize the down side to these designer breeds. There is a great article here:

http://www.mysticalpoodles.com/poodl...article26.html

As for whether one should want a certain breed, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I myself seek the Siamese cat breed. That said, Morkies are not a reputable breed in that they are not recognized by the CKC, AKC or the other organizations. (because they are "designer" dogs). I have to add though that I view a reputable breeder as someone who shows their dogs or cats and then opts to breed one of his or her champions. Anything else is by definition a back yard breeder. Granted, some people become well intentioned byb but that fact remains they still are breeding animals disreputably no matter how much they care for their animals and how good their intentions.

As an physician, I would not refer a patient to a doctor who is not Board certified in his or her field. In the same way, I'd never recommend or consider adopting an animal from a breeder who is not reputable. Some jurisdictions require certification for breeders and I think that is one avenue that should be considerer by more Canadian areas.

I even understand why someone would want a designer breed. Our local CTV affiliate interviewed a woman who breeds (not reputably and she readily ackowledged it) labradoodles - a mixed breed - lab/ poodle - and sells the puppies for $1000. They also discussed the downside and controversial nature of this practice so it was well balanced in its presentation. Admittedly, the puppies were cute BUT one can find a wonderful moggie at any shelter. These people are unfortunately adding to the pet population.

I guess I need to know why it is one would want a Morkie and not a Yorkie? I sit on a hospital ethics committee and I have to wonder if that means we should also be creating designer babies? (and alas, that is not far from science fiction either). The ethical issues are similar. Why create a new kind of species - especially a cross breed about which much is not yet known?

Thanks for listening?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old February 16th, 2005, 05:35 PM
happycats's Avatar
happycats happycats is offline
Senior Contributor
Hexxagon Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,665
Wonderfully put Cyberkitten
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is man without beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

~~Chief Seattle (Duwamish tribe)~~
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old February 16th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Trinitie Trinitie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 833
Thank you Kitten, for a very well thought out and very well articulated post.

The reason I closed the other thread, is because that particular thread had run it's course. I'm all for the discussion of "Designer Breeds and their downsides", but that thread wasn't doing more than keeping a tired arguement going. If people post to this thread, and keep it civil, I see no reason for not allowing it to continue.

It had turned into a very heated discussion started by a person who only posted once, and then never returned. If we want to discuss this further, I think a new thread is totally in order. Like my signature says, I'm firm but fair. Everyone is entitled to say what's on their minds because freedom of speech is something I truly believe in.

I look forward to reading what others have to say on the subject. I only ask that it be kept to a dull roar - that's all.
__________________
I'm firm - but fair. Mind the rules and enjoy your stay.

According to the Humane Society of the United States:
There are an estimated 3-4 million dogs and cats euthanized each year in the US alone! PLEASE - spay and/or neuter your pets!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old February 16th, 2005, 06:30 PM
BMDLuver's Avatar
BMDLuver BMDLuver is offline
Teddy's Canine Railroad
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oxford Mills, Ontario
Posts: 3,996
What I have learned the hard way...

Teddy, my BMD, was a 40th Birthday present. We purchased him at a pet store. We were new again to QC after being away for 12 years. We thought it was a good idea at the time as it looked like a really high end store with very healthy animals. Teddy died as many of you know during surgery at 6 months. What did I learn from this experience?
1) never ever support a petstore
2) never let your heart rule your brain
3) research, research, research
4) ask about genetic testing for both parents
5) ask about health guarantees
6) understand the breed, it's health risks etc
7) meet with the breeder
8) meet the parents
9) go to a show where the breeders dogs are competing
10) ask for references from previous purchasers

All I can add is please be sure before getting a purebred dog that you have looked at every angle and, if at all possible, try to rescue one instead of purchasing one from a breeder.
__________________
"For every animal that dies in a shelter, there is someone somewhere responsible for its death".
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old February 16th, 2005, 06:52 PM
glasslass's Avatar
glasslass glasslass is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Calif.
Posts: 4,679
I think the main point behind designer dogs is that they've suddenly become "popular", therefore exploitable. That's the primary motive behind the breeding - to make money. There's no health testing, no requirement other than the pups being cute. Same with purebred dogs and BYB's. The poodle is a prime example of the problems that occur from indiscriminate breeding. They are prone to hip dysplacia, nervousness, epilepsy, and other genetic problems. They're wonderful dogs that don't deserve the problems that have become all too common. No dogs deserve that. After Disney came out with "101 Dalmations", look how many dalmations soon ended up in shelters. Now people are rushing to breed Schnoodles and Labradoodles to cash in on the new, current favorites. I'm wondering what will happen to the labradoodle that takes after the lab parent and sheds. What will happen when the pup requires the grooming that the poodle side demands? I enjoy the grooming, but not everyone is going to be willing to do it regularly, after the novelty wears off.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old February 16th, 2005, 07:29 PM
Writing4Fun's Avatar
Writing4Fun Writing4Fun is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,421
As usual, CK, we can count on you for a well-articulated, thoughtful post.

GlassLass, I was wondering the exact same thing about the Labradoodles and such. The answer that comes to my mind is almost too painful to think about. :sad: I hope I'm very wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old February 16th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,287
Quote:
I'm wondering what will happen to the labradoodle that takes after the lab parent and sheds. What will happen when the pup requires the grooming that the poodle side demands?
Here's what happened to one "Labradoodle" after the novelty wore off. He was dumped not once, but twice, at the THS. Don't know if he was adopted again, but for his sake I hope 3rd time's a charm.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old February 16th, 2005, 08:09 PM
twinmommy's Avatar
twinmommy twinmommy is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,139
Well said, CK, gee it's good to have you back!!
__________________
If you are wondering if your dog can count, hide three cookies in your hand--and give him two!!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old February 17th, 2005, 07:57 AM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Amazingly well said CK.

There are just to many Oddles and Doodles out.And the more people buy from these people,the more they are pumped out.And the more they are dumped in shelters.

There is absalutely nothing wrong with wanting a specific breed.Just make sure you do alot of research before getting one.

I grew up with GSD's.So when I was almost 16,I knew I wanted one of my own.I did a ton of research.I made sure it was ok with my dad(was living with him.His house,his rules)I went to the dog shows,talked to the breeders.I did my homework.And when I was 17,I got Cujo.So as you can see,it took me almost a year.I wanted to make sure.And he was with us for 13 years.I did go back to my original breeder when I got Yukon and Tron.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old February 17th, 2005, 08:06 AM
sammiec sammiec is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,315
Very well said CK!

Everyone has made such excellent points.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old February 17th, 2005, 10:21 AM
meowzart meowzart is offline
Momof4and6furries
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 180
I actually agree with you .
But I do have a couple questions/points

1) Is there any merit to the thoughts that breeding different breeds together will produce genetically stronger animals - i.e. eliminating a lot of the very unfortunate illness being bred in purebred lines today

2) Not all of the recognized breeds in cat fancy or CKC are natural breeds. Some are 'man made' yet now considered their very own desirable breed. I give you my own ragdolls for example. Only bred since I believe the '60's.

3) I agree re: reputable breeders, HOWEVER, I feel that many breeders are breeding extremes into the lines for show purposes, and to make their breed distinctive which I don't think is necessarily in the best interests of the animal. Do you agree?

4) Many breeds have been overbred and are now suffering from a host of genetically linked or familial diseases - I'm very frustrated with this fact. it may be the demise of purebred lines altogether unless something is done.

Thanks
__________________
Susan mom of 4 and 6 furries
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old February 17th, 2005, 10:40 AM
TobsterMom's Avatar
TobsterMom TobsterMom is offline
AmInaL
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Charlottetown, PEI
Posts: 311
May I also point out that small breeds of dogs are now becoming the hottest trend on the red carpet with celebrities, as much as these people may love and care for their pets, it's only giving the pet more popularity and filling the pockets of BYB's.

It used to be the dress that everyone was talking about, now it's the Chihuahua!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old February 17th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,287
Quote:
1) Is there any merit to the thoughts that breeding different breeds together will produce genetically stronger animals - i.e. eliminating a lot of the very unfortunate illness being bred in purebred lines today
No, not unless both parents have been health tested/screened and cleared against all genetic defects common to that breed. Plus only dogs who have been titled and proven to be impeccable examples of that breed should reproduce.

The "hybrid vigour" you are talking about does not apply here, since all dogs are the same species.

No one who has a titled and health tested purebred would consider cross breeding it, so that leaves the unhealth tested and untitled dogs to produce the designer mixes and puppies could very well end up with genetic defects common to BOTH breeds.

Millions of mixed breed dogs die every year. I see no logic in choosing to pay big bucks for deliberately produced mutts when there are so many to choose from at shelters and rescues.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old February 17th, 2005, 01:26 PM
Writing4Fun's Avatar
Writing4Fun Writing4Fun is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzart
2) Not all of the recognized breeds in cat fancy or CKC are natural breeds. Some are 'man made' yet now considered their very own desirable breed. I give you my own ragdolls for example. Only bred since I believe the '60's.
I think most breeds (dog or cat) are in some respect "man made". But in this day and age, I think we have enough breeds to be getting on with, don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzart
3) I agree re: reputable breeders, HOWEVER, I feel that many breeders are breeding extremes into the lines for show purposes, and to make their breed distinctive which I don't think is necessarily in the best interests of the animal. Do you agree?
I think what you refer to as "breeding to extremes" is actually breeding to showcase the breed's distinctive and desireable qualities. Those puppies that are not "extreme" are referred to as "pet quality" and are sold on a spay/neuter contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzart
4) Many breeds have been overbred and are now suffering from a host of genetically linked or familial diseases - I'm very frustrated with this fact. it may be the demise of purebred lines altogether unless something is done.
This is largely due to the host of disreputable breeders/millers/byb's out there who are not health testing prior to breeding. That's why it's so important to research your breeder properly.

My two cents.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old February 17th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Schwinn's Avatar
Schwinn Schwinn is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Georgina
Posts: 2,258
Some of the "designer breeds" originally served a purpose. I believe the Labradoodle was one of them. It was one of the "oodle" breeds, anyway. It had something to do with people who needed service dogs, but had allergies or something. Apparently, the poodle's coat did not affect them, but the dog itself was not useful for that purpose. So they cross-bred them, and now the are used by people who couldn't use them before (I'm missing a lot of the story, but that's the just). That being said, I think there's more designer breeds out there for the wrong reasons, and I agree, that it is wrong to "design" a breed just for the sake of doing it.
__________________
Hagar:"What kind of dog is that?"
Man with dog:"He's a nice dog!"
Hagar:"You know, at the end of the day, that's always the best kind."
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old February 17th, 2005, 01:42 PM
happycats's Avatar
happycats happycats is offline
Senior Contributor
Hexxagon Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ontario
Posts: 4,665
I didn't know that Schwinn.
I was watching a show a week ago about a blind man with severe allergy's so they just trained a Standard poodle for him, and the dog worked out great, and the man couldn't be happier!
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is man without beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

~~Chief Seattle (Duwamish tribe)~~
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old February 17th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Schwinn's Avatar
Schwinn Schwinn is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Georgina
Posts: 2,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats
I didn't know that Schwinn.
I was watching a show a week ago about a blind man with severe allergy's so they just trained a Standard poodle for him, and the dog worked out great, and the man couldn't be happier!
I should also mention that this was on one site I found from somewhere in Austrailia, and I don't remember all the details. As with anything, a grain of salt...

I think some of these dogs were done with good intentions. However, we all know what happens when you start paving with good intentions...
__________________
Hagar:"What kind of dog is that?"
Man with dog:"He's a nice dog!"
Hagar:"You know, at the end of the day, that's always the best kind."
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old February 18th, 2005, 12:02 PM
BigDogLover's Avatar
BigDogLover BigDogLover is offline
Resident Evil!
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Terrasse Vaudreuil
Posts: 65
I wanted to formulate a response that would not be riddled with egregious remarks and pomposity, here's what I came up with. To eliminate the plethora of unwanted animals we must examine all avenues with a well structured plan, unlike medicine who treats the symptom but never or hardly ever removing the source, masking with artificial solutions well suited for the 21st century man, mashed potatoes in a box!


Ever since man tamed Canis Lupus and brought him into his home, man has assumed a responsibility for these creatures. I've read the screams of outrage that plague this fora with an unusual frequency, yet there is no viable solution at hand, save for the elimination of 'back yard breeders' and 'puppy mills'. Let's see if we can't identify the real cancer here?

Man, that peculiarly curious creature who possesses the innate character of wanting to control his environment. Pollution, green house effect, endangered species, are just a few of man's accomplishments in his attempt at being, 'numero uno'. I ask you again, where is the real cancer? Supply and Demand, is the name of the game, and Homo sapien has copious amounts of demand. We want that dog in the window, doggy grows up and the numerous excuses for no longer wanting rover arise. He's ugly, he's destructive, he's too small, too large, pick one, there all good. Let's get a different breed, maybe he'll work out. Dogs and cats are expendable, man has no accountability for the beasts he's welcomed in his home. Stricter laws on who, how, and where people are allowed to own animals would be a start.


Labradoodle - In 1989 Wally Conron of Kew, Australia, began crossing Labrador Retrievers and Standard Poodles to create the Labradoodle because he wanted to have guide dogs suitable for blind people allergic to dog hair. Labradoodles are sociable, extremely clever and quick to learn unusual or special tricks. These dogs are good with children and easy to train. They need lots of exercise and activity in their life. Their curly coat needs regular grooming at least twice a week. Standard sizes weigh 45 to 77 lbs. and stand 21-24" at the shoulders. Miniature sizes weigh 26 to 55 lbs. and stand 17-20" at the shoulders. Females are slightly smaller.

This breed most definitely has a purpose as much so as any other breed since man decided to 'tame the beast'. What about Mira? Should we hold them accountable for their 'Labernois'? I've seen many of these sad little creatures in shelters and rescues. Louis Doberman set out to develop a breed that, for all intensive purposes existed in the 'Beauceron'. My great-grandparents brought theres with them from France.

I don't dispute the fact that we need to extinguish the 'puppy mills' and 'disreputable breeders', but that is merely a band-aid on the boo-boo. We need to eliminate the real cancer, no I don't mean annihilate mankind, I propose something more drastic in, education and accountability.

Quote:
I guess I need to know why it is one would want a Morkie and not a Yorkie? I sit on a hospital ethics committee and I have to wonder if that means we should also be creating designer babies? (and alas, that is not far from science fiction either). The ethical issues are similar. Why create a new kind of species - especially a cross breed about which much is not yet known?
No it's not science fiction, it's a reality, and this falls under Medical Ethics. What the hell, immortality is only a clone away!

Dar.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old February 18th, 2005, 12:43 PM
meowzart meowzart is offline
Momof4and6furries
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 180
Thank you - I agree with you too. Some animal advocates believe that ANY breeder is a bad breeder.

I know of labradoodle breeders who ARE breeding CKC registered purebreds with health checks etc., so I don't see how that is irresponsible.

I believe the real solutions are
1) SPAY AND NEUTER YOU PETS!!!!!!
2) education of the masses on what is a pet and pet responsibility

It's the animal OWNERS that need to be responsible.

25 years ago it was cool to smoke - through massive education - not it's not cool. I think the same is achievable for pets but I'm not sure we'd have the $$$$ behind us to make it happen
__________________
Susan mom of 4 and 6 furries
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old February 18th, 2005, 12:49 PM
BigDogLover's Avatar
BigDogLover BigDogLover is offline
Resident Evil!
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Terrasse Vaudreuil
Posts: 65
This is where we have to pool our resources, and plan a well thought out attack. Government agencies would be a good start, however crawling into bed with a sleezy partner such as the 'government' gives me the creeps. As far as I know, the Labradoodle is only recognised by the 'ckc(continental not Canadian)' and the 'ACHC = American Canine Hybrid Club'. All in good time.

Dar.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old February 18th, 2005, 12:53 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,287
Quote:
know of labradoodle breeders who ARE breeding CKC registered purebreds with health checks etc., so I don't see how that is irresponsible
Again, the CKC/AKC is merely a listing agent, and no guarantee of any quality. They will register even the crappiest backyard bred litter.

AND no one who has gone to the trouble, expense, and labour of raising a championed Lab or Poodle would ever consider using his/her dog to produce a litter of mutts.

At the moment there are 10,000 Labs and Lab mixes listed on Petfinder alone. Breeding more of them is highly irresponsible and just a money grab.

ETA: ooops - there are now 11,699 listed. Musta been a lot of dumping going on this week.

Last edited by Lucky Rescue; February 18th, 2005 at 01:00 PM. Reason: correction
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old February 18th, 2005, 01:00 PM
BigDogLover's Avatar
BigDogLover BigDogLover is offline
Resident Evil!
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Terrasse Vaudreuil
Posts: 65
So, what would you propose? again this comes down to man's irresponsibility. A new breed is really not the issue, the issue is over-breeding, but for who's benefit? Education and accountability, that is the solution. Keep in mind that each bred deemed as 'cute or adorable' or even worse 'the in breed' has had his fate sealed by mass production. The Doberman, German Shepherd(you don't know where the breed starts and ends), Poodles and poodles of poodles!, just to name a few. This gave us less than whole products, that had to be destroyed due to illness and unwantedness.

Keep in mind, the thread started as a, 'It's not even a real breed', aire.

Just a thought,
Dar.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old February 18th, 2005, 01:57 PM
CyberKitten's Avatar
CyberKitten CyberKitten is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brunswick - Nova Scotia
Posts: 4,852
Hi again,

The "labradoodle" is not recognized as a "real" breed but I think more significantly perhaps is the ethics of the breeding practices. For example, the breeder interviewed on our local news program suggested that her puppies had the best qualities of both breeds they came from - the gentle nature of the lab and the hypoellergenic "hair" of the poodle. Anyone who has completed the most basic undergrad genetics course knows that is an absurd notion!! Not to mention the health problems these new so called breeds present with.

Yes, some of the newer cat breeds are crosses and that too is an ethical issue. I was just reading about an extensive program breeding sphinxes with domestic cats from shelters to advance the breed - and reduce inbreeding - and the difference between that program and some back yard breeder who decides to breed her two different dog types to cash in a new trend - is the science behind it.

The ethics of course is another question but the early breeders of such new breeds like Tonkinese (Siamese and Burmese cross) and Ragdolls is the reputable breeders of these cats (and many - probbly most are not) is the science and effort of the people behind it. Back yard breeders are playing with the dogs - are typically not educated about genetics - while the early creators of such breeds as a Sphynx spent a small fortune and over a period of time (decades actually) - developed these cats. There is an immense difference between someone who shows their cat or dog and invests money and resources to do because of the love of the breed and the back yard breeder who merely mates two animals and assumes s/he has created a new breed for profit!

Someone wrote: "unlike medicine who (sic) treats the symptom but never or hardly ever removing the source". As a medicalk practitioner, I have to disagree with that comment. I am not an expert in this history of medicine but I would a very poor oncologist if all I did was treat the symptoms of cancer!! In the the 1950's - long before I attended medical school - a child who was diagnosed with leukemia typically died in six months. That was the norm. Anything else was an aberation, a miracle! Now, most children who develop leukemia- as tarrible a disease as it is - live and actually grow up! In addition to treating symptoms, those of us in academic medicine as well as clinical practice also conduct research to ensure the illness disapears. I realize we do not always reach our goal but there have been many milestones in medicine. In the eighties, children with AIDS (another area of my practice) died. Now, most of them can be treated with medications and live long lives!

The treatment of symptoms - while obviously important especially to clinical practice -is a very small part of medicine! It is unfair even to suggest that doctors engaged only in clinical work just treat symptoms. Many of them also partipcate in research in some small way.

Sorry to veer off topic but I could not allow that comment to pass when I work so hard to carry out research while at the same time try to save as many lives as possible. The point is medicine in 2005 is very different from medicine in 1905 and if we had just treated symptoms, it would be exaclty the same - preemies would die, there would be no anesthesia, our mortaility rates would be in the 60 age range - you get my point. <g>
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old February 19th, 2005, 01:40 AM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzart
I know of labradoodle breeders who ARE breeding CKC registered purebreds with health checks etc., so I don't see how that is irresponsible.(
That's not being irresponsible...What is being irresponsible is a breeder putting these 2 breeds and creating mutts that sell for $1500.And these dogs will not be recognized with the Canadian Kennel Club....You will not see a reputable Lab or Poodle breeder who shows and has titled dogs doing this.

I have been an active member of the CKC for 20 years now.I have gone to many dogs shows.I have been around MANY breeders and know quite a few.I go to the meetings.We have discussed this breed and many others.And none of these breeders would ever think about breeding their champions or titled dogs to get a "designer" breed.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old February 19th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,287
Quote:
I had found over 40 breeds who's ancester crossbreed mix is a known mix
Of course this is true. But it can take decades of selective breeding, and an expert knowledge of genetics to produce dogs who breed true every time. If you breed two outstanding examples of the German Shepherd, you will ALWAYS get puppies who are like GSDs in conformation, temperament, and size and you can know within reason exactly how puppies will mature.

Merely buying a Lab and a Poodle and breeding them, and calling the offspring "Labradoodles" (and charging hefty prices) is not how it's done. These puppies are mutts and no one knows how they will turn out or what genetics defects they will have, since the parents have not been titled or probably health tested either.

When generations of this new breed do breed TRUE every time, then it can be called a breed - when it can be guaranteed that, for example, the puppies will ALWAYS have the nature of a Lab and coat of a poodle. This is when they can become a breed and puppies sold as such. And the selling price should not be many times higher than other established breeds.

Think about it. 1500$ for a show quality puppy of an established breed is not unreasonable. But 1500$ for a "labradoodle"? What justifies this price? You can't show the dog, and certainly should not breed it, so the price is basically a scam.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old February 19th, 2005, 10:19 AM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Trust me,we have done our research.WE do know that the purebreds now have come from mixed breeds.All this was done MANY MANY years ago.Some going as back as the early 1700's..But these breeds are now purebreds.

Why don't you go to a dog show.Talk to the breeders there about what they think about these "designer" breeds.And trust me,they will tell you straight out what they think.

And by the way,I did answer your question in that post.I answered "yes" they still would be.

Many responsible breeders have been breeding for many years.They breed to better the breed.If there is any health problems that arise,they will NOT breed.My dogs came from a very reputable breeder(over 20 years).Her dogs where Champions and titled in SchH III.Would she ever think of breeding them with a Poodle,just to get a "designer" Shepoodle?He!! no.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old February 19th, 2005, 10:23 AM
meowzart meowzart is offline
Momof4and6furries
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 180
Quote:
Merely buying a Lab and a Poodle and breeding them, and calling the offspring "Labradoodles" (and charging hefty prices) is not how it's done. These puppies are mutts and no one knows how they will turn out or what genetics defects they will have, since the parents have not been titled or probably health tested either.
There's an awful lot of assumptions in that statement.


Actuallly when we were looking for a dog - I looked at labradoodles - did my research and decided that they were too expensive.

But by far what I found was that foundation dogs WERE registered with a pedigree (which means health lines are traceable) and the dogs were health checked. I think it's unfair to lump this particular dog with BYB's.

Here's from one website...most of the breeders had everything I was looking for in a breeder - of course knowing that anybody can write whatever on a website - but that applies to 'purebreds' too.

Thank you for visiting our website. We are a small breeder of the multi-generation Australian Labradoodle.

Our goal is to breed non-shedding family dogs with excellent temperaments. Our breeding dogs are chosen for their sweet and loving personalities. We do extensive health testing on our dogs including hips, eyes, hearts, vWD, and SA. We only breed with dogs who have fantastic health and temperaments


Here's the history

History:
The Labradoodle first originated in Australia when the first intentional purpose bred mating of a Labrador Retriever and a Standard Poodle was initiated by Wally Cochran of The Royal Guide Dogs in Victoria Australia. This breeding was in response to a vision impaired woman whom needed a Guide Dog that would not aggravate her husbands allergies. Of the 31 Labradoodles bred at Royal Guide Dogs, a staggering 29 made it through the training to become certified Guide Dogs. This was an unparalleled proportion for the "new breed" of Guide Dog. When the Guide Dogs had open days, people fell in love with the Labradoodles they saw, and they soon besieged the Guide Dog Center with inquires as to where they could get one of these dogs. Thus became the need for breeders to establish themselves in order to fill the demand, and continue the development of the Labradoodle breed.


Description:
Footnote: It is recognized that during these developmental years of the Labradoodle, not all Labradoodles will meet some of the criteria in this Breed Standard, especially in respect to coat type. It is therefore a guideline which breeders may breed towards as they pass through the generations to the ideal. Conformation is not designated for eye appeal, but as form to function. Correct conformation is necessary to preserve soundness and overall health.

I'm not sure why we're picking on labradoodles here.
__________________
Susan mom of 4 and 6 furries
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old February 19th, 2005, 10:41 AM
LavenderRott's Avatar
LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,671
I doubt that there is a puppy selling pet store in the U.S. that doesn't sell Labradoodles or any of the other designer mixes. And I can promise you, these pups do NOT come from the kennel that you have quoted in the above post. Kennels that raise puppies to sell to pet shops often times don't even have the basics covered - food, water and shelter - let alone vet care and medical testing. Heck, some commercial breeders perform their own C-sections.
__________________
Sandi
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old February 19th, 2005, 10:42 AM
BigDogLover's Avatar
BigDogLover BigDogLover is offline
Resident Evil!
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Terrasse Vaudreuil
Posts: 65
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know when someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. You see, Jazzman, with the legerdemain of the skilled archimage, politicians sashay across the issues like the tourista riddled tourist uses imodium. Cyberkitten was incapable of addressing me directly. 'Someone said' she wrote, well, the kitten knew who said what.

Cyberkitten's premise: These dogs are not a reputable(recognised) breed


Reputable: Having a good reputation; Honourable.
Recognised: 1 - To show awareness of; approve of or appreciate. 2 - To perceive or show acceptance of the validity or reality of.
breed: A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics , especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberkitten
The "labradoodle" is not recognised as a "real" breed but I think more significantly perhaps is the ethics of the breeding practises.
According to the definitions provided, Cyberkittens premise is a fallacy. I propose that the labradoodle is recognised, Recognised by the CKC(continental) and the ACHC, and a 'breed', furthermore these animate creatures are indeed 'real', your fatuous premise has been duly noted. I'd like to point out the remaining issue of 'ethics'. Ethics are highly subjective and don't always appeal to the masses but all to often a governing body, IE: 'medical board/committee of ethics'.

On Ethics: I believe that humans should have the right to terminate their life in such cases where 'quality of life' is hindered, medicine/government says I can't. They keep you alive in the name of science , much like the 'aids' patients that are living longer under medication but with no cure (you know what I'm getting at). The subjective ethics has no place in a logical debate.

This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberkitten
and the difference between that program and some back yard breeder who decides to breed her two different dog types to cash in a new trend - is the science behind it.
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberkitten
The ethics of course is another question but the early breeders of such new breeds like Tonkinese (Siamese and Burmese cross) and Ragdolls is the reputable breeders of these cats (and many - probably most are not) is the science and effort of the people behind it.
Leads me to believe that as long as science has it's grubby little hands in the till it's okay. Newsflash, Louis Doberman was a postman/Tax collector, and before him, all the way back to the first tamed dog, how many scientists were involved in the manufacturing of today's breeds. Probably very few, most were 'Backyard Scientists'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyrescue
At the moment there are 10,000 Labs and Lab mixes listed on Petfinder alone. Breeding more of them is highly irresponsible and just a money grab.
Any takers? Our highly esteemed Mira is breeding 'Labernois' dogs, anyone care to comment on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberkitten
Anyone who has completed the most basic undergrad genetics course knows that is an absurd notion!! Not to mention the health problems these new so called breeds present with.
Again, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, enlighten us on genetics, I'd love to hear your synopsis on phenotypes and genotypes and biological potentials.

Small note for those interested: You are 100% related to your parents(50% to each) , you are 50% related to your brother/sister(assuming the same parents and not the 'POSTMAN'[sic]), 25% related to grandparents and 12.5% related to half siblings and cousins(first), and so on and so on. When the sperm and the egg unite a new cell is created, the Zygote. the Zygote contains the full human complement of 23-paired chromosomes, or 46 autosomes. In dogs, it refers to the 40 autosomes. Your genotype refers to the entire set of genes you inherit, your phenotype refers to the observable properties of your body and your behavioural traits. your phenotype might look like mom, but your genotype is a 50/50 split.

Can the best of both breeds be achieved, absolutely! It just takes time and testing. I argue that a poodle and it's hypo-allergenic hair were not an original breed of Canis Lupus, someone had to know what they were doing.

My premise remains unchanged, Man is the ultimate evil and needs to be tamed, educated and in my case sedated. Hard Sciences are mostly concerned with the abacination of our planet and co-inhabitants.


Dar.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old February 19th, 2005, 11:16 AM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzart
But by far what I found was that foundation dogs WERE registered with a pedigree (which means health lines are traceable) and the dogs were health checked. I think it's unfair to lump this particular dog with BYB's.
I'm not sure why we're picking on labradoodles here.
Are these parents Champions or Titled?I think not.

Sorry,but I will always clasify them as BYB's.

Check out the news papers,shelters and petstores..There are alot of Labradoodles in there.Why,cause they can make $1500 for each pup.This is a "designer" breed no matter how you look at it.They are not recognized nor will they be by the Canadian Kennel Club.The CKC registry ONLY registers purebred dogs.These dogs are mutts.Along with cockapoos,schnoodles,pekepoos and so on.

Yeah,so the parents have pedigrees.You would hope they would for being purebred.My dogs came with pedigrees too,going back 5 generations.Guess what,they were Champion and Titled dogs.They were purebreds.Mutts do not come with pedigree papers,and not even registration papers.

Once again,reputable breeders will not breed their purebreds with a different purebred.That is just unethical in a reputable breeders eyes.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 9.09%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:51 PM.