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  #31  
Old December 7th, 2004, 04:17 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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So here's my question (and it is just a question), if the schnoodle ever becomes recognized, would that make it okay?
In order to create a new breed and have it recognized, it must breed true for many generations (sorry dont' know many) In order to do this, it take years, money, time and a vast study and knowledge of genetics. Taking two dogs of different breeds, putting them together, calling the puppies "Schnoodles" or whatever is not the right way. Each puppy may look and act differently and if this breeding is done in ignorance, puppies may inherit the worst traits and genetic defects of both breeds.

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Or what if the breeder of these dogs does all the proper things (weens it off the mother at the proper time, does background checks, etc)?
No, it's not okay. This is still backyard breeding mutts for profit, when millions of mutts are being killed every year. I am not using the word "mutt" in a derogatory fashion, but merely to denote a mixed breed or mongrel dog.

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know several breeders who are registered, and that is all they do, and they aren't living in poverty
These are NOT reputable breeders if this is how they make a living - creating pets when pets are very overpopulated.

Reputable breeders do this as a very serious hobby - NOT a business - and breed only when they need a dog to carry on their program and to show to a championship. They MAY breed once every 5 or 6 years when their show dogs retire. No big profits there.
  #32  
Old December 7th, 2004, 04:20 PM
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Ready to be blasted but oh well, go ahead................. In my opinion, there is no such thing as an "ethical" breeder.Someone with morals and ethics should know better than to be adding to to the animal population when the shelters are over crowded and killing more and more every minute of everyday. The homeless animal population is so out of control. Breeding when so many are on death row. Everytime someone puchases from a breeder, another one is being killed at a shelter. We'll never have this under control unless people wise up and stop going to breeders and pet stores for their future companions. I know I sound like a broken record but PLEASE go to your local shelter or rescue instead.
  #33  
Old December 7th, 2004, 04:28 PM
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The breeder that I looked into when I wanted to get an English breeds 2 times a year only once per dog and they only ever have max. 4 litters in their breeding years. She said in a couple of years she has had 3 litters but never more than that. She has waiting lists for her dogs. You were grilled like you were adopting a child and that is what I was told to expect from a reputable breeder. I decided to wait and do rescue again and hope that a mastiff would come my way and they did. This is my second mastiff rescue. Rescue dogs are the best dogs you could ever own they know where they have been and how lucky they are to be loved and treated so well. I also have had other rescues but these guys have stolen my heart
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  #34  
Old December 7th, 2004, 05:28 PM
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i don't mean to add more fuel to the fire but...my breeder is not a backyard breeder. she is a breeder of west highland terriers who happens to breed schnoodles, i assume for a profit. i can't say i blame her. how else can she support her family? and i agree with schwinn, i've seen plenty of purebred breeders who live way above the poverty line. why is this?
and i do want a non-shedding lapdog but many people buy purebreds for the very same reason.
the only people on this board i can honestly agree with are those who don't condone breeding at all. those of you who pay a lot for a purebred are no better than those of us who buy a mutt. sure, schnoodles are designer breeds but those of you with, say, some kind of herding dog aren't using them to herd so they bear no better purpose than my designer dogs.
so why don't we all just boycott breeders in general?
i also find it very offensive that you assume my mutt will end up in a shelter one day. you people don't know me whatsoever. you don't even know my name or age or income. and there is no scientific reason to assume my dog will have genetic problems. believe me, if i do know one thing, it's science.
and i'm not justifying myself to you guys. i have no need to. i do, however, have a need to express my opinion.
  #35  
Old December 7th, 2004, 05:30 PM
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Sorry to say but a Schnoodle will never be recognized in the CKC.Neither will a C0ckapoo,Larbradoodle and any other Oodle out there.As a member of the CKC,this is something that has been talked about.Along with BYB's and puppy mills,which we are totally against,and do everything in our power to hunt down the puppy mills and have them shut down.And it's been done.

All licenced responsible breeders have their dogs titled.Either in show or conformation.If there is a champion somewhere in the pedigree,say grandmother,well that's not good enough,and it means nothing.My dogs come from a long line of champions/titles.Depending on the breed,sire and or dam are imported.Whether it be Germany,Chech.

These breeders are active members in the dog world and belong to many groups.

I know of no BYB who fall under any of these catagories.They breed on the first heat.That could even be before a year.Licenced breeders do NOT breed in the first heat.They breed once all testing is done.And that's when she is 2 years old.
fruithead,she is a BYB.NO licenced breeder would ever be irrisponsible to breed a mutt.Also,licenced responsible breeders do no live above the poverty line.Those breeders who do are BYB's
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  #36  
Old December 7th, 2004, 05:47 PM
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True, I don't use my border collie for herding, but my purpose for buying her, which only cost me $250.00, not $600+, is agility which border collies are also known for. The first thing the breeder asked me is , "If you live in the city, why do you want a border collie?" That's why. She wasn't able to start due to her still growing, but now that she is older, she can start her basic level agility.

No one said that all breeders of purbreds are reputible, so your question about why breeders still live above the poverty line remains. As it has been stated on here, reputible breeders, breed because it is a hobby to show dogs and they only breed when they need to keep their lines going. That's only once or twice every 5 years, as previously stated. The only breeders who live above the poverty line that do nothing but breed, are byb's and breeders that pump out puppies for profit, as previously stated. Your breeder is definitely not reputible if she's pumping out schnoodles just for profit, as previously stated. That is wrong and nothing you say will make it right. Read the posts before you reply so people aren't repeating themselves.
  #37  
Old December 7th, 2004, 05:49 PM
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So how do new "recognized" breeds come about? Or is the CKC refusing to recognize any new breeds? Or are there set "rules" for new breeds? If it's a licensed breeder who does this on the side, is that okay? I'm asking out of genuine curiosity. I'll be the first to admit I don't know anything about it.
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  #38  
Old December 7th, 2004, 06:23 PM
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For instance the Neapolitan Mastiff has been around since the christians and the romans. They at one time were put into the ring with the christians for sport. Yeah Yeah we wont go there. But the breed is still not recognized by CKC they are hoping to get recognition this year. They are now recognized by the AKC so as you can see any of these oodles will not stand a snowballs chance in hell of getting recognized by AKC or CKC.
Now I don't know if you were referring to me but my Mastiffs were rescues even though I did consider buying one at a weak moment then thought long and hard and since the waiting list was long I had time to think. I started to search for Mastiffs needing homes and eventually saved Boo (Neapolitan Mastiff) and I do mean saved him. When I lost Boo I contacted a breeder that I know who is also involved in rescue and she helped to put me together with my boy Buddy. Buddy is a rescue as well even though he has papers I have never seen them and could careless about them. He would never have been bred he is not the perfect Mastiff but in my eyes and heart he is perfect and he thinks I am too. That is what you get from a rescue dog total love and admiration and lots of big slobbery kisses.
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  #39  
Old December 7th, 2004, 06:46 PM
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Neos are some what recognized,but under the Miscellaneous class.There are actually quite a few of the "older" breeds not recognized with the CKC.

Border Collies
Dogue de Bordeux
Shilo Shepherd
American Bulldog
American Pitbull Terrier.

These are just a few of them.

As you can see,these breeds have been around for a while and are not recognized as yet.But as mastiff stated,the oodles do not stand a snowballs chance in hell to be recognized.
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  #40  
Old December 7th, 2004, 06:55 PM
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A note to Fruithead:

Any breeder that breeds for profit, breeds mixed breeds are NOT REPUTABLE, or ethical for that matter.

You support your family by getting a JOB not exploiting animals, sorry.

There are lots of bad breeders out there, doesn't make it right, it's wrong and the worse part is the dogs pay the price, not the people. Human greed is ugly and will always be.

I don't condone reputable breeding at all but for me I will NEVER buy a dog while the shelters are full. If you wait long enough the breed you want will show up.

Your mutt may not end up in a shelter but there is a good chance it may have a hereditary disease. I've met lots of VERY expensive designer dogs that have bad hips before the age of 2, that's because the breeders of said dogs don't care about that, they care about money, as well because it's not a proven breed you have NO idea what the dog will or will not get genetically speaking. There is also a good chance of it's litter mates ending up in a shelter, people that breed for money do not care where their dogs end up, it's a fact.

If you or anyone else want to support a back yard breeder go nuts, but do one thing first, go to your local pound and watch them kill a perfectly good 'designer' mutt only because nobody wants it. Once you have done that go nuts, spend your money on whatever you want.
  #41  
Old December 7th, 2004, 07:18 PM
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Not that I'm looking to have the heat turned on me, but just to be fair, I was the first one who stated I have seen breeders who do it for the money.

(Is there a smiley face for "sucker for punishment"?)
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  #42  
Old December 7th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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she is a breeder of west highland terriers who happens to breed schnoodles, i assume for a profit. i can't say i blame her. how else can she support her family?

I must be an idiot. Here I am working to pay my mortgage, instead of letting my dog pay my bills by exploiting her. Darn, and I went and had her spayed.

And anyone with two or 3 litters on the ground in one year is breeding to create pets and make profits. Nothing more.
  #43  
Old December 7th, 2004, 07:30 PM
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Why is this still going?

Just curious.........
Even after everyone has offered their opinions, and all I might add with their good points, are we continuing to convince her to not buy a Schnoodle?
We all know that she is going to buy one anyway............. so........... I will just say this much.
When you get this dog and it DOES have medical and temperment issues be sure that you thank the guy upstairs for giving you a big enough throat to swallow your pride and come begging for help.

The "breeder" you mentioned breeds for profit, not for the benefit of the breed. If she truly cared about anything but money she would not possibly have time to be breeding all the breeds you mentioned, as she would be busy at dog shows getting titles for her dogs.

She has not screened her potential owners, if she had and gave a damn about where her beloved schnoodles were going YOU would not be getting one. She wants your money, and doesn`t give a rip about the quality of dog you get or the quality of home the dog will get.
As it was mentioned before, any breeder that isn`t into this for money, will screen you as tough as a new parent wanting to adopt a child, and would not want a puppy going to a home where another pet was just "dumped".

I guess, in retrospect, I am considered a contributer to the problem as I did buy my Dogue de Bordeaux from a breeder. I disagree with that line of thinking and had I been able to find a Bordeaux to rescue in the years that I searched for one ( and I mean 23 of them) I would have rescued one....... but I didn`t find any in all that time. There are Bordeaux rescue groups in the USA but they rarely adopt to people in Canada. So what are you to do?
I made my choice and no matter what anyone may say I do not regret it.
I have a "perfect angel" that I am very proud of and that I am reminded every day why she is the dog for me and my family.
Chew me apart if you must............ but I honestly know that this particular dog was meant to be with my family and me.......... if you want to know all the reasons I believe so just ask me the story of how we ended up with her is quite unique and somewhat spooky.


One final note,,,,, how many of you who do have purebreds from breeders have a close relationship with the breeder? I talk to my Dogue`s breeder every month and send weekly emails with pictures of the dog and us. I think you have to be careful when lumping all people who buy purebreds and have done their research with those who just want a "designer mutt" from a byb.

Not everyone who buys a purebred is contributing to the problem. Irresponsible owners are more of a contributing factor, as are the breeders who do not screen these people out.
  #44  
Old December 7th, 2004, 07:52 PM
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I have a very close relationship with my breeder.3 of my GSD's have come from her.I had my first,Cujo for 13 amazing years.He was 4 when my daughter was born.He was great with her.Watched her like a hawk.And was very protective of her.I just lost Yukon,8 years old in September.And I miss him so very much.Tron,also 8, is a retired Police Dog.I had him for 18 months.I did all the basic training,then my brother took him for the rest of the training.Tron had to come from a breeder.And my breeder has produced many fine Police Dogs,show and titled dogs.She has since retired due to cancer.She's doing well so far.I actually talked to her last week.Her dogs that she has are keeping her company and happy on her bad days.
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  #45  
Old December 7th, 2004, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shae
Ready to be blasted but oh well, go ahead................. In my opinion, there is no such thing as an "ethical" breeder.Someone with morals and ethics should know better than to be adding to to the animal population when the shelters are over crowded and killing more and more every minute of everyday. The homeless animal population is so out of control. Breeding when so many are on death row. Everytime someone puchases from a breeder, another one is being killed at a shelter. We'll never have this under control unless people wise up and stop going to breeders and pet stores for their future companions. I know I sound like a broken record but PLEASE go to your local shelter or rescue instead.
I can't agree with this enough. In a time of crisis, people need to put down their hobbies and pick up a shovel. There is no room at the inn for the frivolty that is breeding, "responsible" or not. When animals aren't dying lonely horrible deaths, then tell me about your "purebred".

Quote:
In response to this comment though,

Those who buy as opposed to adopt are part of the problem.
And i'll say it again. Those who buy as opposed to adopt are part of the problem.

If every "responsible" breeder who supposedly "loves their breed" referred each of their clients to a shelter we'd be in alot better shape then we are today. An undying love of the breed should mean a desire not to see them, or any other dog for that matter, die. All breeders take up a spot in a potential adopter's home. I look forward to the day when dog lovers the world around have no other option but to adopt when pursuing a pet. Maybe then, we'll see a dent made in the epidemic that is the current state of the domestic animal world. I shudder at the thought that a household with the money to shell out huge amounts of money on purchasing an animal is wasting it on a breeder. Imagine what those thousands of dollars (per dog!!!) could do to rehabilitate a dog who needed or even just in general supplies for the shelters themselves. Spending it on anything else is tragic and heartbreaking.

Finally, the poster with the schnoodle thing? That is so not an ethical
breeder in even the vaguest sense. And that's even me attempting to adopt a more liberal view for this response.

Dee
  #46  
Old December 7th, 2004, 08:09 PM
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A note to Dogue Lover,
You said:
Quote:
She has not screened her potential owners, if she had and gave a damn about where her beloved schnoodles were going YOU would not be getting one.
I don't think it's necessary to resort to personal insults. But that's just my opinion. No matter what dog my family owns, no matter where it comes from or what problems come with it, we will love and cherish it forever and, in the end, that's all that really matters. Now that is something I do not need to justify to you. Grow up.
  #47  
Old December 7th, 2004, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
All breeders take up a spot in a potential adopter's home.
Were it not for my purebred border collie, I never would have even looked at rescuing another dog. When I saw Helix on Petfinder, I knew he and my girl would be best friends. Fate drew us together and I truely believe that if we hadn't adopted him, he would not be alive. He was saved by a family that does care, very much, even though we own a purebred aswell. We worked soooooo hard with training him to make him a good dog. It's like saying people can't adopt a child and have one of their own, or saying
every "purebred" child takes up potential room in an adopters house! I'm tired of defending myself, so we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. I really didn't think that I was a horrible person just because I own one purebred and 2 rescues, insted of 3 rescues, not to mention my 3 rescued cats.
  #48  
Old December 7th, 2004, 08:30 PM
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The children/pet argument is long overdone and entirely irrelevant. Its not comparable since there aren't children dying in cages or being euthanized daily due to overpopulation. When that point is reached, then we'll talk.

Dee
  #49  
Old December 7th, 2004, 08:35 PM
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It wasn`t meant to insult you

The comment was not an insult, I just know that the screening I went through with the breeder I got my Dogue from would not have even considered me if I had just "dumped" another pet.
Sorry if you took it personally, I actually made several points about you getting this type of dog for yourself as it is your choice, no one is going to change your mind.
I think the one who needs to do some growing up is yourself, don`t come to a site where you can read what the general concenses is about buying dogs and then get angry with people for giving their opinion when that is what you had asked for in the first place.

Read all of my posts, then you can see that I am considered to be one of the "problems" as I bought a purebred from a breeder instead of rescuing one.......... honestly, check out how many other people told you the same thing about the breeder and what would happen if you were to get a dog from a reputable breeder.( I know that I am not the only one who gave this response to you........... )

Buy your beloved dog and for your sake I hope that the breeder has some form of ethics for when you have questions that only someone who has a vast knowledge of this particular mix will have answers for.

Talk about picking out one quote out of all the threads posted here
If you`d like I can go back and pick out the threads that told you exactly what I did, maybe you want to chew them out too????
  #50  
Old December 7th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Now that is something I do not need to justify to you. Grow up
Exactly. As I said earlier, I don't know why you keep trying to justify it and then argue that you don't need to. Why do you care what we think? Conscience?

Go and get your schnoodle or whatever. Enjoy!
  #51  
Old December 7th, 2004, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirium
The children/pet argument is long overdone and entirely irrelevant. Its not comparable since there aren't children dying in cages or being euthanized daily due to overpopulation. When that point is reached, then we'll talk.

Dee
Have you looked at the situation in China? Female babies are being dumped and killed secretly! We are there NOW, there are orphans all over the world begging for homes.
  #52  
Old December 7th, 2004, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIA
Have you looked at the situation in China? Female babies are being dumped and killed secretly! We are there NOW, there are orphans all over the world begging for homes.
I've actually been to China and travelled quite a bit through south east Asia. The situation is a tad bit different in reality. There are not girls in cages being euthanized, however their policies on one child families are of course renowned. I definately do not liken it to the scope of the animal over population epidemic as it does not span the globe. Western culture, among others, is an example of that. Of course there is strife; disease; hunger, however that's reality, not overpopulation. And if the percentages were similar, the amount would be astoundingly greater. Also, it would be more evenly distributed.

I'll say again, the argument comparing children to dogs in terms of over population is not valid and really can't be compared at this point. While both species have their area of concern, humans are by far not universally in that bad a state otherwise you and I would have had quite a different upbringing. In conventional thought, we are definately not at the same levels. What's the north american population of dogs and cats? With almost 5 million of them dying each year, not to mention the number kept in cages without becoming a statistic, it would really be interesting to know the percentages. Then, you can apply that to the North American population and determine exactly how many children would need to be in orphanages and/or abandoned for it to even relate. If we have world dog/cat euthanization stats you can do it globally as well. I reckon that the numbers will support my theory. While I won't argue the ridiculousness of the comparison as some will, I will argue that the numbers just aren't even in the same ballpark.

Dee
  #53  
Old December 7th, 2004, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mona_b
I have a very close relationship with my breeder.3 of my GSD's have come from her.I had my first,Cujo for 13 amazing years.He was 4 when my daughter was born.He was great with her.Watched her like a hawk.And was very protective of her.I just lost Yukon,8 years old in September.And I miss him so very much.Tron,also 8, is a retired Police Dog.I had him for 18 months.I did all the basic training,then my brother took him for the rest of the training.Tron had to come from a breeder.And my breeder has produced many fine Police Dogs,show and titled dogs.She has since retired due to cancer.She's doing well so far.I actually talked to her last week.Her dogs that she has are keeping her company and happy on her bad days.
I'm doing some personal research on police dogs, trying to find out more about them. There are a number of programs that are trying to get shelter dogs trained up as emergency response animals which is obviously where my interest lies. Would you mind if I asked what breeder you went to? I have no intention of contacting them. I just research both sides of all topics that i'm interested in so that I can feel comfortable with my eventually decided upon opinion. Do they have a website that I can view?

Dee
  #54  
Old December 7th, 2004, 10:49 PM
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I wasn't comparing the over population stats. I was stating that your comment can compare to the adoption scenario aswell. Millions of children are in foster care right now in North America waiting for homes, and just because they are not being euthanized doesn't mean that they're not being looked over because people want children of their own, or want babies and not older kids. Let's not even mention the hundreds of children growing up on some of the streets in Mexico, selling gum for money!! That's just North America! Anyways, this is completely off topic, and I stand by my convictions as do you delirium, so I'm done with this thread.
  #55  
Old December 8th, 2004, 12:09 AM
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I think that everyone here should leave destiny and fruithead alone. They've made up their mind as to what they want to do. We can't change that.

I think that it is silly and irresponsible to ask advice for something that you know the answer to begin with. Destiny...a Chihuahua or a Bulldog? Come on....how can anyone here take you seriously when you're asking to compare apples and oranges. Yes, they are both dogs...but they might as well be completely different species.

Fruithead, for the last time, take the chip off your shoulder. I think you're intelligent enough to know that people aren't attacking you directly. Why are you so interested in attacking other people? Angry because someone doesn't support your decision to buy a Schnoodle? I don't either. Angry because someone owns a purebred? I own four. Take a swing...

Do whatever you guys want to do...I don't care and frankly, I don't want to hear about it.
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  #56  
Old December 8th, 2004, 01:13 AM
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Thank You Hound Dog

I think you have voiced what we all wanted to say.

In past threads it was mentioned that it is difficult to comprehend what someone is trying to say across the internet as you cannot hear their voice.
IMO most of the time what is taken as an insult was never intended to be..... and I would hate to see people taken off this site because of a misinterpretation of what they were trying to get across.
  #57  
Old December 8th, 2004, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heeler's rock!
I wasn't comparing the over population stats. I was stating that your comment can compare to the adoption scenario aswell. Millions of children are in foster care right now in North America waiting for homes, and just because they are not being euthanized doesn't mean that they're not being looked over because people want children of their own, or want babies and not older kids. Let's not even mention the hundreds of children growing up on some of the streets in Mexico, selling gum for money!! That's just North America! Anyways, this is completely off topic, and I stand by my convictions as do you delirium, so I'm done with this thread.
And i'll say again, the comparison is completely invalid due to both the nature of each of the problems and the extent.

If there were just a small percentage of homeless dogs and cats, not requiring the mass euths that we see today nor the horrible conditions, then it wouldn't be an epidemic either. However, while we as humans are lucky that we don't have wide spread horrors affecting a huge majority of our population, dogs and cats aren't so lucky. As such, the severity is a different level and the response should be also. Hence, my pushing for adoption as the only option while generally ignoring those who choose to have kids. I of course am not one of them but I see no reason for the world to be up in arms yet. It should be gearing up for war however when it comes to our tragically neglected domestic animals.

Dee
  #58  
Old December 8th, 2004, 09:41 AM
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mona_b mona_b is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirium
I'm doing some personal research on police dogs, trying to find out more about them. There are a number of programs that are trying to get shelter dogs trained up as emergency response animals which is obviously where my interest lies. Would you mind if I asked what breeder you went to? I have no intention of contacting them. I just research both sides of all topics that i'm interested in so that I can feel comfortable with my eventually decided upon opinion. Do they have a website that I can view?

Dee
As I have stated,she is now retired due to her health.So there is no longer a website.What is it that you need to know?My brother is a cop with the K9 unit.So if there is anything you need to know just ask away.I know quite alot about them.I can tell you that that they start their training with their handler at 18 months.They must pass all 3 stages of schH,tracking,obedience and protection.The sire is usually imported.The K9 force will not use shelter dogs.They need to come from a licenced responsible breeder.These dogs must be OFA and OVC certified.These are very hard working dogs and need to be healthy.Hence the health and genetic testing.Dams are done at 2 years of age,sires at 18 months.These dogs come from a long line of titled pedigrees.

Same with the Seeing Eye Dogs.They also come from licenced breeders.They are forstered out untill they are about a year.My neice forstered a Lab pup that was being trained.It broke her heart when her year was up and she had to return him.Yes,Samson did pass.

As for Sevice dogs for the deaf,or in a wheel chair,yes they are adopted from the shelter.They go through alot of testing and extensive training.

As for SAR dogs,you can even train your dog for this and volunteer.

If you have any questions,ask away.
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  #59  
Old December 8th, 2004, 10:39 AM
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Schwinn Schwinn is offline
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Okay, what happened? It's like I got on a bus to Toronto, fell asleep, and woke up somewhere in New Mexico! Can you say, "Got of track?" I knew you could.

I wanted to try and stay out of the insanity that this thread has become, but I do need to say one thing to Dee:
I would say that the population of humans is a far more serious crisis, and I'm sure those in Africa, Ethiopia and China would agree with me. The people dying due to over-population and not enough resources far out-weigh the number of pets being put down. And you're right, it is a rather silly arguement, but you're making it more bizarre. No offense intended.

Okay, I now return everyone back to thier regularly scheduled chaos.
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  #60  
Old December 8th, 2004, 11:08 AM
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Delirium Delirium is offline
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The discussion differs from the original post but that doesn't make it any less meaningful. The opinions represented are important, up-to-date and relevant to this site as a whole so I see nothing wrong with them being discussed.

Sure, its serious. However its not widespread. Its limited to certain locations for specific reasons. If it was global, like the pet over population problem, you and I would not be sitting here as comfortably as we are today. That's my point. One doesn't throw the word epidemic around lightly and it has never been applied to human over population in the same sense.

The comparison itself is bizarre so it cannot help to sound that way on explanation. Through validity nor fact is the comparison valid.

Dee
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