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Old July 8th, 2006, 12:12 PM
MorahMommy MorahMommy is offline
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How do you tell a reputable breeder from a puppy mill?

We are thinking of getting a puppy. There are so many ads in the paper and on-line. How do you tell if it's a reputable breeder or a puppy mill? What are the signs to look for?
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Old July 8th, 2006, 12:33 PM
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chances are, if its in an ad, its a byb or a puppy mill
i'll go look for the link for tell tale signs
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Old July 8th, 2006, 12:49 PM
RVT092481 RVT092481 is offline
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As Puppyluv said, a lot of reputable breeders won't advertise in the paper. If your looking for a purebred dog, your best resource is the CKC (or AKC if in USA). The Dogs In Canada website/books list all the CKC registered breeders by breed. Both parents should be viewable in person or pictures (if sperm from stud dog) and up to date on vaccines, depending on breed they should have hips/elbows/eyes certified and papers should be given to you as well. You can start there and word of mouth is best as well.
Do you know what breed you're looking for? I'm sure that lots of people can recommend good breeders.
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Old July 8th, 2006, 01:24 PM
White Wolf White Wolf is offline
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Here is a sticky from the breed discussion forum that might be helpful.
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=18613
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Old July 8th, 2006, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by White Wolf
Here is a sticky from the breed discussion forum that might be helpful.
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=18613
thats the one i was looking for! Thanks WW!
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Old July 8th, 2006, 02:55 PM
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how about this place?

Classified ad in today's paper under "pets":

Pet Zone (Sarnia) Snoodles, ShiPoos, Bichons, Cockapoos, Puggles, Beagle-Bull dogs, Shih Tzus, Golden Doodle, Wheatie-poos and Cairn terriers coming soon. (Phone #)

I couldn't help but notice that these are mostly what one may consider "mutts", all mishmashed cutsie designer "breeds". And where do we suppose they come from?? You got it....puppymill, BYB, and they are plentiful and mass produced. Just look at the sheer volume of available dogs at this one store! Always in stock, with more to follow....

Does this make you think??
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Old July 8th, 2006, 03:17 PM
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anyone from the Sarnia area??

Anyone on this forum ever check out this Sarnia pet store, *******?? Does anyone know where the dogs in question come from and/or have you seen the kennel that they originated from? Has it ever been investigated or reported?

I'd be interested to see what they would say when asked:

1) where do your dogs/cats come from?
2) Is the 'breeder' a responsible person? Of course, they'll say "Oh yes!"
3) are the animals vet checked prior to sale? Vaccinated? Dewormed? Clean bill of health with proof??

That kind of thing.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 09:17 AM
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Let me start by saying I know this thread is old.
I have been in this store and it is disgusting the smell will knock you out.
I also feel that these puppies no doubt come from a mill.
My friend went in and asked those questions and was told info on the pups was confidential when the person insisted to know, they were asked to leave the store.
A family member bought one of their pups cost them $1000 in vet bills 24 hours after they got it. The heath guarantee is just a line they feed you as family member got no help with their vet bill just an offer of free dog food.(1 bag)
When it comes to buying a puppy from here buyer beware.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 09:21 AM
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Best way to go about buying a pup from a breeder: Word of mouth.
Attend a couple of dog-shows and talk to breeders and have handlers recommend breeders to you.
The alternative: There are a lot of breed rescues out there who would be more than happy to adopt a puppy out to you.
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Old July 7th, 2008, 04:28 PM
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One of the best ways is to ask for pictures. Pictures of the puppies, the mom and dad, the place...a reputable breeder will be happy to send you pictures and if you see clean, happy, healthy looking animals you'll know it's the right place.

I've gotten several animals from breeders (and adpoted several too) and the best breeders are the ones who breed out of their own home and raise the animals as part of their families (and don't treat them like a cash cow...so to speak). These breeders are always (in my experience) happy to have you visit and happy to send pictures.

So ask for pictures and by all means do not hesitate to visit the breeder...you'll know a puppy mill when you see it.
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Old July 7th, 2008, 05:01 PM
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Here is a pretty good explanation of BYB vs Reputable breeder

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb_vs_rp.pdf

If they are breeding more than one breed of dog, or have multiple litters at once, they are probably a puppy mill.
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Old July 7th, 2008, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by allfurlove View Post

If they are breeding more than one breed of dog at once, they are probably a puppy mill.
Ummm not really.I know many "ethical" breeders who will have 2 different breeds,even three.But these dogs are health/genetic tested and titled to Ch and other titles.My sisters Sibe breeder also showed and titled Boxers.I know that for a facked cause I was the one who was dealling with this breeder and did the checks of the kennel and got in touch with other breeders about this breeder.

Also,ethical breeders will ask you a ton of question.Actually it's almost like your adopting a child.

they should never ever be bought from a pet store.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 02:44 PM
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I seldom post, but did feel I had to speak up on this one. Our first Golden Retriever back in 1984 came from what I now know was a BYB. Duke lived to be 13 with very little health issues other than 2 sebacious cysts which we had removed. He was the joy of the neighbourhood.

Our second Golden who was rehomed to us at almost age 3 came from a reputable breeder. He had hypothyroidism and hip dysplasia. He died suddenly just short of 10 years.

My present Golden comes from a reputable, although small breeder. Her sire is from a large reputable, and long living Golden line. In her first two years I spent $4000 on vet bills - all unrelated. One incident was due to an accident in the yard next door when she was only 8 months old so definitely nothing genetic. She has a pink nose year round and jowls that drool like a Saints, but she is gorgeous.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is, unless we are heading for the show ring, no matter how good the genetics are s--- happens.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 03:39 PM
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I seldom post, but did feel I had to speak up on this one. Our first Golden Retriever back in 1984 came from what I now know was a BYB. Duke lived to be 13 with very little health issues other than 2 sebacious cysts which we had removed. He was the joy of the neighbourhood.

Our second Golden who was rehomed to us at almost age 3 came from a reputable breeder. He had hypothyroidism and hip dysplasia. He died suddenly just short of 10 years.

My present Golden comes from a reputable, although small breeder. Her sire is from a large reputable, and long living Golden line. In her first two years I spent $4000 on vet bills - all unrelated. One incident was due to an accident in the yard next door when she was only 8 months old so definitely nothing genetic. She has a pink nose year round and jowls that drool like a Saints, but she is gorgeous.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is, unless we are heading for the show ring, no matter how good the genetics are s--- happens.
You are right - no matter how good the genetics are, stuff happens. Just out of curiosity - how much of that $4,000 in vet bills was spent on issues that are genetic or hereditary?

However, if you make sure that you only buy from an ETHICAL breeder - who tests and certifies things like hips, elbows, thyroid, etc. then the chances of crippling or fatal stuff happening is greatly decreased.

IMHO - there is a HUGE difference between REPUTABLE and ETHICAL. I have met several breeders of many different breeds who have great reputations for pumping out lovely pups that do well in the show ring. But they do not do any genetic testing and are, shall we say, less then careful when screening homes for pups. An ethical breeder will do everything humanly possible to make sure that any puppies they sell not only meet the breed standard but are as healthy as possible and will live long, happy lives in wonderful families.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 05:35 PM
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Hi LavenderRott .... No, really none of Momtana's problems were genetic, but I suppose I was trying to say the pink nose (not snow nose) and loose jowls do not comform to the breed standard, but I just carry a face cloth to wipe her off when we are on walks. Just today she was groomed, and we went next door to our vet's to get weighed, and Montana knows she gets the good Rollover treats. They know enough that they have to wash their hands right after giving her treats. Did I expect this from a golden with it being my third?No. I don't love her any less, but I am still saying she came from good breeding, but does not fit into the standard (unfortunately, I explain her short comings at the vet's much the same as I did with my girls in school). I wouldn't trade her for anythng though.

Pat
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Old July 8th, 2008, 06:02 PM
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Even the most careful breeder can have a puppy that has faults - such as your Montana's pink nose. And if it is only the occasional puppy - that is exceptable, IMHO. Now, if the breeder was breeding litter after litter of pups with the same disqualifying fault, I would find a new breeder. But. Better a pink nose then hips that are so bad the dog is incapable of walking by the age of 1.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 06:41 PM
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Hi Sandi .... And that is why I say I love her so much, but lots would not be so accepting perhaps if they were looking for perfection. Now the drooling I could do without. lol
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Old July 10th, 2008, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by allfurlove View Post

If they are breeding more than one breed of dog, or have multiple litters at once, they are probably a puppy mill.
My nany breeds samoyeds, siberians, and malamutes, she isnt a byb nor does she runa a puppy mill, she is passoinate about all three breeds .
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Old July 11th, 2008, 07:50 PM
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My nany breeds samoyeds, siberians, and malamutes, she isnt a byb nor does she runa a puppy mill, she is passoinate about all three breeds .
So. We can assume by this statement that your Grandmother shows her dogs to championships, participates in activities with the dogs that are appropriate for what they were bred for and makes sure to breed dogs that have had all the appropriate health tests and certifications needed to prevent the passing on of crippling or fatal genetic health issues.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 03:49 PM
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So. We can assume by this statement that your Grandmother shows her dogs to championships, participates in activities with the dogs that are appropriate for what they were bred for and makes sure to breed dogs that have had all the appropriate health tests and certifications needed to prevent the passing on of crippling or fatal genetic health issues.
Yes, Why would she breed them if she werent trying to better the breeds?
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Old July 14th, 2008, 06:29 PM
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She must be incredibly busy. And/or very rich.
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Old July 14th, 2008, 08:43 PM
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Both accually dingo, But she is the type not to flaunt money, My Grandpa was a big excectutive of a big company in Alberta, i didnt see him alot as a kid, then he died so, i didnt really get to know him Man, i wish i could remember the name of the company. Anyway, When he died she retired and is spending the rest of her life completely devoted to the animals! ...lol I mean, she was breeding them for years before my grandpa passed away, but she was only breedind sibes at the time, she has been breeding them for years and years and years now..lol
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Old July 16th, 2008, 10:43 AM
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Personally, I really don't see how anyone could find enough time and resources to devote herself fully to three different breeds. The breeders I know

* are constantly doing research to keep up with news and developments in their breed
* are frequently in contact with other breeders
* participate in breed- or type-specific activities (such as earthdog, or lure coursing, or hunting or whatever), and participate in and attend breed- and type-specific shows and trials. These can happen every weekend, and often require travel
* spend hours every day grooming, exercising, and training their own dogs, of which they typically have several
* spend hours planning matings and litters, caring for pregnant dogs and puppies, and dealing with potential buyers
* sometimes even devote time to non-dog activities (like eating, cleaning, spending time with their families, maybe even watching a little tv...) as well

Multiply that by three breeds, and it seems like something has to be sacrificed somewhere.
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Old July 20th, 2008, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katherine93
My grandma has 9 samoyeds, 8 Siberians, And 5 malamutes! She breeds them! Thats who i got jesse from!

22 dogs in total.. Plus she has litter of samoyeds up there now that are almost ready to go.. She has a liter of siberians and a litter of malamutes on the way , than shes done breding and retiring the girls.. And spaying them all.. BUt she might not neuter all the boys and 'pimp' em out as studs.. To Responsible breeders of course!
That is way to many even for a breeder.

Even breeders I know with 3 breeds don't have THAT many.

My sisters Sibe breeder only had 3,and 2 boxers.And that was a chore for her with all the showing she did with them..How the heck do you show/title 22 dogs?
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Old July 20th, 2008, 02:56 PM
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She doesn't breed/show/title ALL of them . Only a few of them. She kept alot of puppies from litters she has had for just "Family pets" . Id rather not go into detail at the moment, because i no what its going to cause .
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Old July 21st, 2008, 01:22 PM
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22 dogs PLUS another 12-20 on the way? Good grief.
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Old August 12th, 2008, 01:06 AM
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While I'm absolutely against puppy mills and byb's, and do believe that good, ethical, reputable breeders should be getting all necessary health tests done {and putting championships on their dogs is most cases}, I do believe that there are exceptions.

Some breeds should not be put in the show ring and titled with show championships, period. To do so destroys the breed because it encourages breeding to conform to a conformation standard, rather than for the breed's original purpose. Case in point, border collies. Though they are now able to be registered and shown with the CKC, the CBCA (Canadian Border Collie Association), feels so strongly that this is a detriment to the breed and will ultimately destroy the working ability of the border collie that CBCA memberships will be revoked if a breeder chooses to go the CKC route (I believe, though the exact wording may be different, but it is on the CBCA website for anyone who wants to take a look). Border collies come in a wide variety of sizes, colours, coat types, ear stances etc., however, the ones bred for the show ring are all remarkably the same: fluffy black and white dogs with perfect markings - "Barbie collies" to those who prefer a working bred dog. That's not to say that border collies shouldn't still be registered, however their registries would be the CBCA, ABCA (American), or ISDS (International Stock Dog Association I believe). And before being bred they should be proven working dogs, either working to a high level on the farm or competing and placing well at herding trials - i.e. earning working titles, not show titles.

As for numbers of dogs a "good" breeder has, it is true that usually the good breeders will have only one breed, or maybe two and not huge numbers. But again, there are exceptions, and again my example goes back to working dogs. Take a look at mushers. Their kennels can range to upwards of 100 dogs depending on how many strings they're running, the size of their strings and if they're offering tours. Yes they do breed, their proven working dogs, to ensure they have up and coming youngsters. A serious musher needs to have many dogs. In the long distance races they run big strings (16 dogs start the Iditarod, but they have to bring 24 I think that all must pass a vet check and then they choose their 16 starters). In sprint races they may run 4 dogs, 6 dogs or 8 dogs, but often if they've traveled long distances and are spending the weekend at the race they will enter 2 or more classes with different teams, which could require up to 18 race ready dogs. Plus more at home; spares in case of injury or illness, plus youngsters in training. You get the picture, the numbers begin to add up. Often more than one family member is involved and that requires more teams. Or, the big kennels may have an "A" team and a younger "B" team and hire help to run "B" team in some races to give them race experience. One other thing about many sled dogs - most of the best, fastest dogs do not have papers and are not found in any registry. The Alaskan Huskies, the Scandanavian Hounds, the Eurohounds - all mixbreeds bred for the sole purpose of pulling that sled as fast as they can go. Of course there are other breeds that can and do sled, and classes are offered for purebred northern breeds but by and large it's the open class dogs, the mixed-breeds that are seen in larger numbers. I believe that the breeding of these type of mixed breed dogs, bred with a specific purpose in mind (improving their working ability), is vastly different than puppy mills and backyard breeders producing mutts they market as "designer dogs" with huge price tags.

I think that anyone thinking about getting a puppy or dog needs to do their research first of all about what kind of dog will suit them best; energy level, temperament, coat type, size, habits and eccentricities (barkers, diggers, chewers, good off leash or around other animals) etc. and then research more about the breed they choose. What was the breed originally bred for? Are you prepared to fill that breed's inherent needs (i.e. border collies need to work or be otherwise stimulated) What health problems are inherent to the breed? Does the breeder you're interested in test for these potential risks? Can both parents be seen? Are they registered? If so with what registry - not all registries are created equal, some are basically not much more than a way for puppy mills to put papers on their dogs to better market them. Are the parents titled? Should they be titled or should they be proven in some other way? i.e. working ability vs. show championships. Do all the dogs on the premises (not just the puppies and their parents) appear to be healthy? What health guarantees are offered? How often are their females bred? Does the breeder have a contract to sign? Do they insist that any dog they sell be returned to them in the event that the buyer can't keep it sometime in the future? Does the breeder want to know everything about you (family members, children, other pets, type of residence, rent/own, fenced yard, etc.), or do you just hand over your money and be on your way with your new puppy? Will the breeder be willing/available to answer questions, offer tips etc. if you experience any difficulties raising your pup? Sometimes it seems like a lot to go through to get a dog/puppy but the good breeders really care about who they place their puppies with and the kind of life they'll have. Rescues are very similar, most will make you jump through hoops to prove that you're good enough to adopt one of their pets but it's because they care so much about making sure that the animal will have a forever home. These are all things to consider that will help to differentiate between the truly good, ethical breeders and the rest. And if you've done your research about the breed you're interested in, you'll know what to be looking for in a breeder, what questions to ask, and what things are red flags to watch out for.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 07:14 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Best way to go about buying a pup from a breeder: Word of mouth.
Attend a couple of dog-shows and talk to breeders and have handlers recommend breeders to you.
The alternative: There are a lot of breed rescues out there who would be more than happy to adopt a puppy out to you.
Thanks for saying this. So true. You would not believe how many purebreds are in rescue and shelters. My sister just got a 9 week old black pug from the SPCA. I am certain that the little fellow is not from a renouned breeder...but he is absolutely gorgeous and in good health. The best time of year to get a purebred puppy from a rescue or shelter is after X-Mas, after Valentines day and just after moving season (September/October/November). Pathetic isn't it.

You can always make an application out with a rescue and once you are approved they will advise you when a pup comes in. You will be saving alot of $$ and you will also save a life.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Gail P View Post
While I'm absolutely against puppy mills and byb's, and do believe that good, ethical, reputable breeders should be getting all necessary health tests done {and putting championships on their dogs is most cases}, I do believe that there are exceptions.

Some breeds should not be put in the show ring and titled with show championships, period. To do so destroys the breed because it encourages breeding to conform to a conformation standard, rather than for the breed's original purpose. Case in point, border collies. Though they are now able to be registered and shown with the CKC, the CBCA (Canadian Border Collie Association), feels so strongly that this is a detriment to the breed and will ultimately destroy the working ability of the border collie that CBCA memberships will be revoked if a breeder chooses to go the CKC route (I believe, though the exact wording may be different, but it is on the CBCA website for anyone who wants to take a look). Border collies come in a wide variety of sizes, colours, coat types, ear stances etc., however, the ones bred for the show ring are all remarkably the same: fluffy black and white dogs with perfect markings - "Barbie collies" to those who prefer a working bred dog. That's not to say that border collies shouldn't still be registered, however their registries would be the CBCA, ABCA (American), or ISDS (International Stock Dog Association I believe). And before being bred they should be proven working dogs, either working to a high level on the farm or competing and placing well at herding trials - i.e. earning working titles, not show titles.


I think that anyone thinking about getting a puppy or dog needs to do their research first of all about what kind of dog will suit them best; energy level, temperament, coat type, size, habits and eccentricities (barkers, diggers, chewers, good off leash or around other animals) etc. and then research more about the breed they choose. What was the breed originally bred for? Are you prepared to fill that breed's inherent needs (i.e. border collies need to work or be otherwise stimulated) What health problems are inherent to the breed? Does the breeder you're interested in test for these potential risks? Can both parents be seen? Are they registered? If so with what registry - not all registries are created equal, some are basically not much more than a way for puppy mills to put papers on their dogs to better market them. Are the parents titled? Should they be titled or should they be proven in some other way? i.e. working ability vs. show championships. Do all the dogs on the premises (not just the puppies and their parents) appear to be healthy? What health guarantees are offered? How often are their females bred? Does the breeder have a contract to sign? Do they insist that any dog they sell be returned to them in the event that the buyer can't keep it sometime in the future? Does the breeder want to know everything about you (family members, children, other pets, type of residence, rent/own, fenced yard, etc.), or do you just hand over your money and be on your way with your new puppy? Will the breeder be willing/available to answer questions, offer tips etc. if you experience any difficulties raising your pup? Sometimes it seems like a lot to go through to get a dog/puppy but the good breeders really care about who they place their puppies with and the kind of life they'll have. Rescues are very similar, most will make you jump through hoops to prove that you're good enough to adopt one of their pets but it's because they care so much about making sure that the animal will have a forever home. These are all things to consider that will help to differentiate between the truly good, ethical breeders and the rest. And if you've done your research about the breed you're interested in, you'll know what to be looking for in a breeder, what questions to ask, and what things are red flags to watch out for.
I have to wonder why you think it is not possible for a working dog to get both conformation (show) titles and working titles? I know several breeders who not only put championships on ALL of their dogs but also but working titles on their dogs. The puppies that they sell go on to have not only wonderful show careers but excel in working venues such as herding, tracking, schutzhund, obedience, agility, and as Search and Rescue dogs.

Honestly - I think there is a huge difference between a "reputable" breeder and an "ethical" breeder. A reputable breeder breeds and sells puppies that will excel in a venue - be it working or conformation. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are concerned about any other aspect of their dogs besides what they are bred to do - be it looking good or working well. They may (or may not) be very concerned about where their puppies go and are willing to go the extra mile for puppy buyers.

An ethical breeder is not only concerned about breeding dogs that will do well in the venue that they enjoy - but they are truly concerned about the health and temperment of their dogs and the breed. They want to improve on the lines they have and breed dogs that meet the standard (in looks) and are capable of doing the job that they were meant to do. This most certainly is possible.

If the "working" border collie people in Canada are upset about their breed being excepted by the Canadian Kennel Club and concerned that bloodlines will become all about looks and not working ability - maybe they should take the time to become members of the National breed club. It is my understanding that the National breed clubs set the standard for the breed and the National registries use that standard when it comes to judging and such.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 09:52 AM
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babymomma babymomma is offline
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I have a question though

Say you had a very good breeder, That bought ckc registered dogs, very good health records, vet checked for hips, elbows, temperment etc. And they bred them for people that didnt want them for showing , and wanted them simply for pet purposes..when the dogs had puppies he or she had them vet checked, dewormed and had there first set of needles and sold them simply as pets without being CKC or AKC(etc) registered. Sells them for say, $500 to very good homes that have been screened. Maybe they are doing it for a hobby and obviously doesnt care about the money and sells them for the price of just vet bills and food. Would that make these people BYBs.. Just because the dogs arent shown or registered.. I just dont understand what falls under the category of byb, I mean i know a breeder that does the above, and he started this because alot of people cannot afford a $1300 dog just because it has a registered name or its parents are show champions and really want a certain breed of dog and people obviously want healthy dog.. Oh and this guy im talking about, takes the dogs back that he rohomes for any reason at all so they dont ebd up in a bad home or shelter..
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