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Old March 18th, 2010, 11:15 AM
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What constitutes a BYB?

Mods - if you don't think it should be here then remove it.

In an effort to move a debate from a thread where it shouldn't be to a place where it can, hopefully, be debated without any feelings being hurt I am opening this thread. I am also hoping to be educated about bybs as that isn't quite the area I am known for.

So - What exactly is a BYB? What factors determine if it is? What differs back yard breeding from a puppy mill? At what point does a back yard breeder become a puppy mill? Do they need to be selling a certain number of puppies? Do they need to be set up differently? Do they need a license?

What can we do as a cohesive unit to educate people?

From dogtime.com - Backyard breeder

An individual who causally breeds dogs without titles or clearances and without any clear regard for improving, and maintaining the breed standard, temperament or keeping it free of genetically linked defects.


http://dogtime.com/definition/backyard-breeder

Wikipedia describes BYB's as:
Backyard Breeder is a term used for breeders of dogs in a largely pejorative sense by the Animal Welfare community, ASPCA, larger established breeders and dog club. It is used to refer to one of the groups usually deemed not to be a Reputable Breeder.
It implies either or both of careless home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a small commercial operation that does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practises. In contrast, larger commercial operations of a similar type are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm.
This type of breeder is usually regarded by the Animal Welfare, ASPCA, and canine establishment as likely to exhibit one or more of the following faults:
Ignorance of selective breeding goals and techniques, and lack of familiarity with the breed standard of the type of dog being bred.
Exclusive focus on the breed standard involving little genetic screening or Co-efficient of Inbreeding calculations.
Breeding of a working breed for appearance rather than working ability. This is a criticism also levelled at 'reputable' breeders who breed for the show ring - in some cases distinct working and show strains have emerged.
Lack of adequate veterinary care and maintenance.
Excessive breeding from individual bitches, to the detriment of their health.
Sale of puppies with genetic disorders or undisclosed illnesses before they become evident to buyers.
Lack of screening of potential owners or the provision of suitable information to prevent buyers from purchasing a dog that may be inappropriate for them or their lifestyle.
Breeding of dogs for illegitimate reasons, such as for the usually illegal sports of baiting and dog fighting or to defend venues of criminal activity. Dog fanciers generally believe that such ill-bred dogs are the reason for the bad reputation of some breeds in the public perception, and the resulting breed-specific legislation.
Breeding without concern for the possibility of finding homes, though commercial means or otherwise, for the puppies, thus adding to the population of unwanted dogs.

From examiner.com - Backyard breeder - Breeds at least one pair of dogs together in the hopes of raising a litter.
http://www.examiner.com/x-21101-Coon...nd-puppy-mills

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Old March 18th, 2010, 11:22 AM
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I think that this is very appropriate since a pet forum is suppose to be informative and educational. This also will help people who purchased pets in such establishements - explain perhaps why their loved pets are ailing with certain behavioral or medical ailments.

Also - taking a dog from such establishments are not rescueing the said animal..well in a way they are but they are also only encouraging the practice. Reporting such places is doing all animals a better service then just purchasing them and letting it go.

Don't forget - puppymillers started somewhere..usually they started out as a byb..saw the profit and then went BIG.

Great thread 14+K.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 12:20 PM
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I agree, this is a good idea! 14+

I think that Wiki descrbed BYB's perfectly, but for me its really the people who breed carelessly, random breeds, without concequences or concerns of any sort. It could be one litter or many - it's still wrong.

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Old March 18th, 2010, 12:43 PM
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I know in the US, anyone involved in the commercial sale of dogs is supposed to have a license that is issued by the USDA. This includes brokers. The USDA is supposed to inspect these kennels/brokers but IMO that doesn't happen - which makes the license not worth the paper it's written on. Most pet store owners will use that as a marketing tactic to sell their puppies though - "Our breeders are all federally licensed" kind of thing. Makes them sound like fine, upstanding breeders producing healthy pups.

IMO a byb is a breeder who breeds for profit, but who breeds only one or two breeds of dogs - and lots of times is breeding for specific traits without concern for the health risks (such as breeding for size or coat color or breeding "designer" mixes). In my mind, a mill is a large commercial operation breeding numerous breeds and holds a large population of "breeding stock". IMO you would see much more horrific conditions at a mill than at a byb's facility - although I'm sure there are byb's out there whose kennels would make your stomach turn. I think the ads you see in the newspaper or online offering puppies are mostly byb's - with some brokers for the mills thrown in there too.

For example - Hazel's breeder.........now that I know more, I would consider her a byb. While some of her dogs have had the genetic testing done, IMO her quest to produce bigger dogs, with more of them being the pewter or chocolate varieties, has created problems in her breeding lines. I've read that newfs are 50% more likely to suffer ACL injuries than most other breeds, and when newfs are line-bred that risk goes up even more. Hazel's breeder does quite a bit of line breeding - and it's showing in the puppies that she is producing IMO. IMO she thinks she is 'bettering the breed' but she's not.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Thank you Kandy. Very interesting information. I was not aware that the US regulated, or tried to, the breeding facilities. Or, more correctly, I think I was aware but forgot.
Do you think the biggest problem with not being able to regulate better is because there are not enough people trained to do the job? Or do you feel the people trained are in the pockets of the big time breeders?
There are more and more puppy mills popping up all the time. It seems to me the rules governing breeders need to be much more stringent than they are now. People get slapped with a small fine, their dogs taken away (hopefully), and within a month have opened another site somewhere nearby the first. The thing is unless the government is more willing to involve themselves in this quagmire I don't see things changing any time soon.
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We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Last edited by 14+kitties; March 18th, 2010 at 02:23 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old March 18th, 2010, 01:03 PM
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Looking back 16 years ago I am now almost positive the breeder I got Keesha from was probably a byb. In those days not much was known about them. I went specifically looking for a bishon and Keesha just happened to be there. One tiny 10 week old silver toy poodle among a sea of white. Of course I fell in love on the spot. I got her for the bargain price of $300. Back then that was a lot of money. No papers though. That would have cost another $200. When Keesha turned a year old she started having seizures. We have dealt with them for a long long time. I have always wondered since then what health issues her parents had. The woman said she had no intention of selling her. She was "keeping her for a friend". So no parents on site.
Since joining Pets I have learned so much. But I still have tons more to learn.
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We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
The thing is unless the government is more willing to involve themselves in this quagmire I don't see things changing any time soon.
They are not interested 14k....and the Agencies that do are so understaffed it's not even funny...then when they do get to press charges they have the go to court, thus taking them off the road, defendant doesn't show, new court date set and it goes on and on until in the end the Judge passes sentence/or not in their absentia

As far as BYB's, they are probably way better than Puppy Mills...I've seen lots of photos taken by people hands on in the field of BYB's and they ain't pretty....many of them don't even use their backyard but their home and live in the same squalor as the animals involved.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris21711 View Post
They are not interested 14k....and the Agencies that do are so understaffed it's not even funny...then when they do get to press charges they have the go to court, thus taking them off the road, defendant doesn't show, new court date set and it goes on and on until in the end the Judge passes sentence/or not in their absentia

As far as BYB's, they are probably way better than Puppy Mills...I've seen lots of photos taken by people hands on in the field of BYB's and they ain't pretty....many of them don't even use their backyard but their home and live in the same squalor as the animals involved.
That's a shame Chris. I wonder how many people have to step forward before they are willing to do something. I realize the agencies are understaffed. It's not a job I would be able to stomach. I truly appreciate the ones that do put themselves in the forefront to try to improve things. Give that girl of yours a giant hug for me please. The things she sees..... We are only on the sidelines looking in most of the time.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
That's a shame Chris. I wonder how many people have to step forward before they are willing to do something. I realize the agencies are understaffed. It's not a job I would be able to stomach. I truly appreciate the ones that do put themselves in the forefront to try to improve things. Give that girl of yours a giant hug for me please. The things she sees..... We are only on the sidelines looking in most of the time.
Let me tell you 14+K, that there are rescues or individuals that actually 'deal' with byb's, millers or even brokers to get some of these animals. In my opinion, it's only adding to the problem since there is an exchange of money. More evidence that even those that are 'educated' still feeding into this illness.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:35 PM
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all my dogs were/are from bybs. Brina was on her way to the spca with her litter mates. I've recieved puppy mill doggies/puppies to hand over to rescues. I'm really not sure what the thread is about, I do agree with the meaning of byb's and puppymills that you posted 14+kitties. My grandmother had a registered kennel many moons ago, I use to help her with the nose printing (identification back in the old days)
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:38 PM
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You'll see her yourself in the summer 14k, you can give the hug then, she might have cooties
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:48 PM
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In my opinion, it's only adding to the problem since there is an exchange of money. More evidence that even those that are 'educated' still feeding into this illness.
I think that depends are the reason for exchanging money for an animal. I know of certain cases where money was exchanged just to get the animal instant relief from the circumstances that it was living in.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
Let me tell you 14+K, that there are rescues or individuals that actually 'deal' with byb's, millers or even brokers to get some of these animals. In my opinion, it's only adding to the problem since there is an exchange of money. More evidence that even those that are 'educated' still feeding into this illness.
So how can they call themselves a rescue? I thought a rescue was there to keep dogs/cats from being euthanized or from facing other perils? If they are taking from the bybs and millers are they not just aiding those same people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
all my dogs were/are from bybs. Brina was on her way to the spca with her litter mates. I've recieved puppy mill doggies/puppies to hand over to rescues. I'm really not sure what the thread is about, I do agree with the meaning of byb's and puppymills that you posted 14+kitties. My grandmother had a registered kennel many moons ago, I use to help her with the nose printing (identification back in the old days)
As I stated when I started the thread -
In an effort to move a debate from a thread where it shouldn't be to a place where it can, hopefully, be debated without any feelings being hurt I am opening this thread. I am also hoping to be educated about bybs as that isn't quite the area I am known for. - the most important part of the statement being to help educate.
I am in no way trying to start an argument. Just an honest debate about bybs. There seems to be a huge misconception about what they are and what is just an "accidental" breeding.

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You'll see her yourself in the summer 14k, you can give the hug then, she might have cooties
I can't wait!! I love that girl!! And her momma too! They are both special peeps.
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We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:50 PM
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This is from No Puppy Mills Canada

Quote:
The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating.

The majority of homeless or abandoned dogs come from this category in many popular breeds and mixes, they are often destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight.

Many back yard breeders do not have the knowledge to properly raise a healthy, socialized litter, or to help the new owner with any problems that might arise.

Back yard breeders may act on a desire to make extra money, or simply out of ignorance. Sometimes back yard breeders will breed so "their children can experience the miracle of birth", or they mistakenly believe "every dog should have one litter." They may think their dog is so cute, he/she would make wonderful puppies, with little or no thought for the homes to which their puppies will go. Other back yard breeders see how much money legitimate breeders charge for pups and figure they could make some "easy money" too. Or, a back yard breeder may have a completely unplanned litter by accident.

Back yard breeders usually bring two breeding animals together regardless of their quality. They are not interested in scientific breeding. Their aim is to fulfill a personal need or goal, not to improve the breed and bring excellent quality dogs to the world. Since breed excellence is generally unimportant, the breeding dogs generally will not have been tested for genetic and health problems.

Back yard breeders are not necessarily bad people, they often come from middle to upper income families, and their dogs can be well loved and kept. However, getting a pup from a back yard breeder is a gamble:

the parents likely have not been screened for health problems

puppies usually are not sold with contracts and no future support to the buyer

the breeders are not in it for the long haul

They will be working on new personal objectives in five years when your pet has a problem and you need help.

Although you might pay less for the breed of your choice from a back yard breeder, it's almost a given that in the long run, you'll pay a good deal more in vet bills and perhaps emotional bills (if the dog has to be euthanized due to a health or temperament problem), than you would from a reputable breeder.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:51 PM
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I think that depends are the reason for exchanging money for an animal. I know of certain cases where money was exchanged just to get the animal instant relief from the circumstances that it was living in.
It is not stopping the cycle. If it is not reported based on all the vetting that is done on these dogs saved from further hardships (which is evidence in itself) then it is allowed to continue. And ask yourself the question: what dog is taking the place of the one that is being relieved of these hardships?
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:00 PM
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It is not stopping the cycle. If it is not reported based on all the vetting that is done on these dogs saved from further hardships (which is evidence in itself) then it is allowed to continue. And ask yourself the question: what dog is taking the place of the one that is being relieved of these hardships?
Purely Hypothetical:

An agent goes to a call, pup in distress. They know the person involved is not going to relieve the pup of his distress, the person would rather kill the pup (legal if one hit does it, thus not causing suffering) than spend a dime.

What do they do?....Write orders to be complied with in 5 minutes and go back and find dead pup.......OR......pay $50 and save a life?

It's a fine line BenMax.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:03 PM
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From what Ive seen, A BYB (In most cases) is a Dog owner that has good intentions and doesnt have the knowledge to actually know why breeding their dog/s is wrong..

They have dogs that they ether breed on purpose, or just let them get pregnant by a neighborhood dog and Give away the puppies or sell them.

Alot of them think they are doing good in the world by bringing in puppies to sell/give to people.. Cuz lets face it, Who doesnt love a cute puppy?

To most people in the world, A dog having puppies is just a natural thing. The majority of people whom S/N their dogs arent doing it to prevent pet overpopulation, but do it because they dont want to deal with puppies.

Im sorry but I dont see every BYB as money hungry.. Alot of them Actually feel they are doing something good by Carrying on the blood lines of there well mannered dog.. Even though , their German shepherd or yorkie or whatever doesnt have the temperment they should have or the conformation they should have..

I dont think they are monsters.. I hate when people see somebody breeding there dog and right away say " SHUN SHUN ! *GASP* What kind of selfish creature are you for breeding your dog? You Must REALLY love money to put your dog throug such a horrid thing! Call the SPCA right away! "
While the owner is just siiting there like WTF did I do?

Ive known alot of dogs that have puppies when ever went into heat, but they were SO well taken care of in every other aspect of there life and I used to fawn over there puppies and couldnt wait for them to have more so I could see more puppies.

All of us here were uneducated about these things at some point.
And most of these Horrid BYBS are just that. Uneducated.

They may ask money for puppies. But unfortunatly that is Normal in this society.. So why should they think its wrong?
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris21711 View Post
Purely Hypothetical:

An agent goes to a call, pup in distress. They know the person involved is not going to relieve the pup of his distress, the person would rather kill the pup (legal if one hit does it, thus not causing suffering) than spend a dime.

What do they do?....Write orders to be complied with in 5 minutes and go back and find dead pup.......OR......pay $50 and save a life?

It's a fine line BenMax.
It is a fine line but what you are describing is one incident. Not to mention, if the pup is killed is there not something in the criminal code for animal cruelty that can be applied? If the testimoney of the agent is that the pup could have been handed over but instead killed by the person who is in possession of the dog - does this carry any weight at all in the judicial system? And how about neglect for not ensuring that the pup is properly vetted?

The case you are describing is very different than those that KNOW who the millers, byb'ers or brokers are.

What about reporting it? Is that not what we always tell people to do when they know something wrong is happening?
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:07 PM
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Sorry Babymomma, without appearing disrespectful, I think you are a bit misguided......prefers to think nice things about people which isn't a bad thing at all. But misguided nevertheless.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Thank you Kandy. Very interesting information. I was not aware that the US regulated, or tried to, the breeding facilities. Or, more correctly, I think I was aware but forgot.
Do you think the biggest problem with not being able to regulate better is because there are not enough people trained to do the job? Or do you feel the people trained are in the pockets of the big time breeders?
There are more and more puppy mills popping up all the time. It seems to me the rules governing breeders need to be much more stringent than they are now. People get slapped with a small fine, their dogs taken away (hopefully), and within a month have opened another site somewhere nearby the first. The thing is unless the government is more willing to involve themselves in this quagmire I don't see things changing any time soon.
While I think a good portion of the problem is staffing, I also think that some of it is American's attitude of not letting government interfere with private business. Sadly, the laws (for the most part) still consider pets in the same light as livestock - they are possessions, and their owners allowed to do as they see fit and that includes breeding indiscriminately.

I think we keep seeing more and more mills because the demand is not going away. As one mill gets shut down, 2 more take it's place. It's got to start with educating people on where that cute puppy in the pet store window came from, or why you should not buy a puppy from an ad in the newspaper or an online ad. The trend of celebrities to have 'purse dogs' isn't helping anything, and of course every year after the large dog shows, whatever breed takes best in show suddenly sees a rise in demand. Humans are fickle - we see the newest remake of 101 Dalmations, and suddenly they are the "in" breed, we see celebrities we admire with "x" breed, and that's what we want too. We won't see puppy mills as a thing of the past until we quit lining their pockets, only when it is no longer profitable will they shut down.

While I can certainly understand someone letting their heart talk them into buying a puppy just to remove it from horrible living conditions - sadly that is just putting the money in their pockets. IMO they don't care where the $$ are coming from, and it allows the cycle to continue. Even when those people sell some of their breeding stock, they are just going out and replacing it so that they can continue to mass produce puppies. Like the owner of one pet store here told me when I was criticizing him for selling puppies, "people want little dogs, they want teacup puppies and they want them right now".
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:10 PM
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just because it's the natural thing to do doesn't make it right,,it's natural for humans to procreate too, but would you want your daughter getting knocked up every chance possible.

And yes we all think puppies are cute and smooshy, including the ones being put to sleep daily because people insist on breeding their dogs..breeders or yorkiepoo's and cockapoo's and every other poo you can name are not doing it for the goodness of the breed. they are doing it for money.

now adays for anyone to say they didn't know better is wearing blinders. With the amount of advertising, etc there is no way you couldn't know.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:12 PM
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I dont think I said anywhere that I agree'd with it.. Just looking at it from the view of a normal everyday pet owner. :/
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:16 PM
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It is a fine line but what you are describing is one incident. Not to mention, if the pup is killed is there not something in the criminal code for animal cruelty that can be applied?

If the first hit does it, no cruelty, remember they are "property"

If the testimoney of the agent is that the pup could have been handed over but instead killed by the person who is in possession of the dog - does this carry any weight at all in the judicial system?

Like I said above, they are property.

And how about neglect for not ensuring that the pup is properly vetted?

That is when they write an order for it to be vetted, after issuing the order they have to leave the premises.

What about reporting it? Is that not what we always tell people to do when they know something wrong is happening?
Yep and that is the right thing to do and for the most part the problem is resolved one way or another....but not always, you know as well as I the cruelty laws suck and until such time that animals are not seen as property the people who try to enforce the weak laws that we have, have their hands tied by the LAW.

As for so called "rescues" who buy animals from BYB's or similar, that's a whole different can of beans.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:22 PM
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Very very good points Chris. I cannot agrue them. Indeed the laws are very difficult to enforce and I do understand why some would pay to help the said animal in distress....

I personally report everything that I see. Yes - there is an impact...it may not be immediate, but over time places have been exposed. Do I think of all those that have suffered..yes, but I also know the ones that are saved today and not yesterday.

Great arguement Chris. I respect your input. Point well taken.
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  #25  
Old March 18th, 2010, 03:24 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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While I can certainly understand someone letting their heart talk them into buying a puppy just to remove it from horrible living conditions - sadly that is just putting the money in their pockets. IMO they don't care where the $$ are coming from, and it allows the cycle to continue. Even when those people sell some of their breeding stock, they are just going out and replacing it so that they can continue to mass produce puppies. Like the owner of one pet store here told me when I was criticizing him for selling puppies, "people want little dogs, they want teacup puppies and they want them right now".
Ok Kandy - that is what I wanted to say. Well put. Thank you for reading my mind!
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  #26  
Old March 18th, 2010, 03:38 PM
Chris21711 Chris21711 is offline
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Very very good points Chris. I cannot agrue them. Indeed the laws are very difficult to enforce and I do understand why some would pay to help the said animal in distress....

I personally report everything that I see. Yes - there is an impact...it may not be immediate, but over time places have been exposed. Do I think of all those that have suffered..yes, but I also know the ones that are saved today and not yesterday.

If everybody did the same, more could be achieved.

Great arguement Chris. I respect your input. Point well taken.
I respect your input greatly, you are a frontline worker, speaks volumes.

Kandy brought up the issue of Livestock, one of the reasons the Animal Cruelty Laws don't carry more punch is Livestock, which is a pretty cruel business as we all know.

Interesting convo....sadly my Masta is on the verge of walking through the door
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  #27  
Old March 18th, 2010, 03:38 PM
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Melinda Melinda is offline
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no no 14+ I realize why you started the thread, don't get me wrong, I just wondered what we were posting about, if it was our thoughts on it or just information to help others?
I'm also wondering if byb and mill laws are different from province to province in Canada??
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  #28  
Old March 18th, 2010, 03:41 PM
Chris21711 Chris21711 is offline
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no no 14+ I realize why you started the thread, don't get me wrong, I just wondered what we were posting about, if it was our thoughts on it or just information to help others?
I'm also wondering if byb and mill laws are different from province to province in Canada??
I know that cruelty laws are Melinda....apparently Ontario has the best Animal Cruelty Laws in the country....there are Federal Laws but they are real weak even though they were updated last year.

In Ontario, the penalties are greater under Provincial Law than Federal.
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  #29  
Old March 18th, 2010, 03:44 PM
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Melinda Melinda is offline
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all it takes is one phone call in cornwall to get action, I love our spca!! I wish all places could be like here
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  #30  
Old March 18th, 2010, 03:49 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Babymomma - you are the new upcoming generation. All our hopes are that your generation picks up the slack and moves forward. Right our wrongs.

I see from what you post that us old timers still have our work cut out for us.

In saying this, My daughter is 18 years and very in tune with the way animals are treated. I am very proud to say that she is an animal advocate. She is aware of millers, byb'ers, brokers, and is a very active person in voicing her opinion to whomever will listen about petstores. She also refuses to eat certain animal products.

Hopefully the children of today can make the difference.
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