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  #91  
Old September 30th, 2010, 04:45 PM
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One last one, we regulars on the forum know there are too many animals in shelters.

But really you are expecting too much from the general population imo. OF COURSE I agree with you personally and I will always spay and neuter and I will tactfully explain this to any poster.

But most people INCLUDING that 40:1 ratio might not share your belief....that's just the way it is. I'm having a hard time understanding why you think people SHOULD know this spay/neuter/ anti breeding info. This is your passion, and my passion but we are in the minority...you have to know that. We are not in the minority when it comes to regulars posting...but when it comes to newbies posting, we are imo.

I'm a big fan of recycling, but do you know how many people throw plastic stuff directly into the garbage. That's BLASPHEMY to me. Everyone should know better....and SO many people don't......There's just too much knowledge for everyone to know and accept what you personally believe to be common knowledge.

So the only good way to solve this problem imo......is through tactful education.

Thx - marko
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  #92  
Old September 30th, 2010, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy View Post
I know I know Marko , for my defense , I think I've toned it down a lot compared to a few years ago.
You certainly have.
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  #93  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
One last one, we regulars on the forum know there are too many animals in shelters.

But really you are expecting too much from the general population imo. OF COURSE I agree with you personally and I will always spay and neuter and I will tactfully explain this to any poster.

But most people INCLUDING that 40:1 ratio might not share your belief....that's just the way it is. I'm having a hard time understanding why you think people SHOULD know this spay/neuter/ anti breeding info. This is your passion, and my passion but we are in the minority...you have to know that. We are not in the minority when it comes to regulars posting...but when it comes to newbies posting, we are imo.

I'm a big fan of recycling, but do you know how many people throw plastic stuff directly into the garbage. That's BLASPHEMY to me. Everyone should know better....and SO many people don't......There's just too much knowledge for everyone to know and accept what you personally believe to be common knowledge.

So the only good way to solve this problem imo......is through tactful education.

Thx - marko
The information is out there and it has been in MY experience that most people who do NOT spay and neuter is not because they do not know anything about the topic, it is because they are too lazy or have a BS excuse not to. And then to boot, come whining when their pet ends up with a litter and get upset when a shelter/SPCA/HS can not take them in.

I don't think I am expecting too much from the general population. I think the general population expects too much from the shelters, HS, etc. to take care of their mess. It's time to hold people accountable for their actions, quit letting them use excuses when most of them know better, and give them correct information if they are misinformed. You don't have to know alot about animals or spayed/neutering in general, besides that it is the only way we can work towards the end of millions of animals being PTS every year.

I have agreed all along that the best way to solve this is to continue to educate people, but I am entitled to rant if I want, and it's been in MY experiences that it is common knowledge, people just choose not to listen to it, read it, etc.
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  #94  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:06 PM
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I said from the very beginning...

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Originally Posted by cassiek View Post

I don't want this thread to turn into a hostile debate back and forth
And all its become is a fricking battle ground. People need to be civil to each other, no matter who they are or what their "status" is here, and quit the bickering, rude remarks, etc.

If it continues please close this thread.

TY.
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  #95  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:08 PM
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just did a quick google search under...to spay or not to spay...1,670,000 links came up.
  #96  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post
The information is out there and it has been in MY experience that most people who do NOT spay and neuter is not because they do not know anything about the topic, it is because they are too lazy or have a BS excuse not to. And then to boot, come whining when their pet ends up with a litter and get upset when a shelter/SPCA/HS can not take them in.

I don't think I am expecting too much from the general population. I think the general population expects too much from the shelters, HS, etc. to take care of their mess. It's time to hold people accountable for their actions, quit letting them use excuses when most of them know better, and give them correct information if they are misinformed. You don't have to know alot about animals or spayed/neutering in general, besides that it is the only way we can work towards the end of millions of animals being PTS every year.

I have agreed all along that the best way to solve this is to continue to educate people, but I am entitled to rant if I want, and it's been in MY experiences that it is common knowledge, people just choose not to listen to it, read it, etc.
Exactly. Spaying/neutering and the fact that there is an overpopulation of pets has been very well publicised.
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  #97  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:23 PM
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What's needed is public information campaigns, that's what will make more of a difference than snark on a message board - snark that takes someone aback and is a shock to the system when they thought they were just asking a question.


IMO, contacting your elected officials to ask about public policy changes, laws, and organizing local campaigns is the way to go on the spay and neuter issue.

And I've been there with burnout, on other topics, and the solution when you are feeling angry or frustrated is to walk away for a good long while. You don't do anybody any good when you speak to the uninformed with your anger. Passion yes, anger and disdain, no.
  #98  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aslan View Post
just did a quick google search under...to spay or not to spay...1,670,000 links came up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Exactly. Spaying/neutering and the fact that there is an overpopulation of pets has been very well publicised.
Exactly. The information is out there. There is no shortage of information on the topic, and most information on it promotes spaying/neutering. Sure, there can always be more, and maybe rescues, shelters, HS need to take a more aggressive approach to this and start using shock and awe campaigns like PETA does to get the harsh truth across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
What's needed is public information campaigns, that's what will make more of a difference than snark on a message board - snark that takes someone aback and is a shock to the system when they thought they were just asking a question.


IMO, contacting your elected officials to ask about public policy changes, laws, and organizing local campaigns is the way to go on the spay and neuter issue.

And I've been there with burnout, on other topics, and the solution when you are feeling angry or frustrated is to walk away for a good long while. You don't do anybody any good when you speak to the uninformed with your anger. Passion yes, anger and disdain, no.
I agree, which is why I try to be very polite and tactful when responding to a post of this nature or not at all. In fact, I have felt some of that "snark" before and it only scares people off.

I know in my local city, they push very hard for people to fix their pets and even have bylaws against leaving a bitch outside in heat, having more than so many pets at a residence to discourage breeders, giving reduced licensing rates for those who have their pet fixed, etc. etc. Oh, and there is alot of public campaigns out there... look at BFAS as an example of all the workshops, campaigns, etc. they do...
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  #99  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post
And all its become is a fricking battle ground. People need to be civil to each other, no matter who they are or what their "status" is here, and quit the bickering, rude remarks, etc.
I don't see a battleground cassie. I see friends joking with each other. It's all good!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post
like PETA does to get the harsh truth across.
Now if you want to really start an argument.......... Peta kills more animals than they ever adopt out. http://www.petakillsanimals.com/ That is just one of many websites out there about their shocking behaviour. Maybe they started out on the right foot and with the right idea. Now they are just out of control. A 33 million dollar budget could go so far to truly help by building so many more shelters/rescues/etc. to help those animals they are supposed to be helping. Instead all they want to do is tell us how bad we are if we still eat meat.
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  #100  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
I don't see a battleground cassie. I see friends joking with each other. It's all good!!

I don't see it as a battleground either...all in all I think it has been a good discussion between everyone

Now if you want to really start an argument.......... Peta kills more animals than they ever adopt out. http://www.petakillsanimals.com/ That is just one of many websites out there about their shocking behaviour. Maybe they started out on the right foot and with the right idea. Now they are just out of control.
Oh yeah PETA....then the gloves come out

Last edited by Chris21711; October 1st, 2010 at 08:37 AM.
  #101  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:46 PM
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ummm chris,,cassiek is the OP of this thread...and yes everyone has been extremely civilized to each other,,we occassionally surprise people and can have a polite yet controversial conversation.

which means one of two things,,we're all aware of where each of us is coming from so no wondering about whether or not what is being said is for real...ooooor,,nobody is pmsing at the moment.
  #102  
Old September 30th, 2010, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aslan View Post
ummm chris,,cassiek is the OP of this thread...and yes everyone has been extremely civilized to each other,,we occassionally surprise people and can have a polite yet controversial conversation.

DUH that I am.....in my head I was referring to that other thread...you know which one?

,,nobody is pmsing at the moment.
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  #103  
Old September 30th, 2010, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiek View Post
Probably we need groups to start having a more aggressive approach towards conveying the message - along the lines of PETA, who I disagree with for several reasons, but have to admit... they get their message across loud and clear. (And before anyone freaks, I am not saying advertising naked women or graphic pictures to get a message across is necessary!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post

Now if you want to really start an argument.......... Peta kills more animals than they ever adopt out. http://www.petakillsanimals.com/ That is just one of many websites out there about their shocking behaviour. Maybe they started out on the right foot and with the right idea. Now they are just out of control. A 33 million dollar budget could go so far to truly help by building so many more shelters/rescues/etc. to help those animals they are supposed to be helping. Instead all they want to do is tell us how bad we are if we still eat meat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris21711 View Post
Oh yeah PETA....then the gloves come out
14+ and Chris, you missed my post from earlier (see above) trust me I am about as anti-PETA as they get... I am actually part of a group called PETA - People for the Eating of Tasty Animals. I am very aware of their practices - including euthanizing 95% of companion animals that enter their care. They just don't think we should all stop eating meat - they have gone as far to say that those of us who own companion animals are sentencing our pets to miserable lives and it is selfish on our behalf to keep them in our company. They think our companion animals are better off dead then sharing a life with their humans. They are truly looney toons no question about it.

Maybe rescues, HS, etc. need to also take such a stance on advertising and show the public what they don't often see i.e. innocent animals being euthanized in huge #'s, being left to die outside, severely neglected etc. Maybe in this day and age we can't use statistics or research, we have to show people what the harsh reality of this situation really is.

And my comment about keeping things civilized was not directed to any of you... no worries.
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Last edited by cassiek; October 1st, 2010 at 08:24 AM.
  #104  
Old October 1st, 2010, 01:22 AM
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I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why. Maybe listing some other sites they might find more helpful, etc.

Now, me, I simply avoid posting in "those threads" cuz I would lose my cool. Also, I believe at least 50% of them are trolls. When the OP just seems to lead people on and on making the situation sound even worse with each post, I'm not buying it.
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  #105  
Old October 1st, 2010, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why. Maybe listing some other sites they might find more helpful, etc.
I know 14+ has been doing so lately , she will post links of pets.ca rules and links about spay/neuter.
  #106  
Old October 1st, 2010, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why. Maybe listing some other sites they might find more helpful, etc.

Now, me, I simply avoid posting in "those threads" cuz I would lose my cool. Also, I believe at least 50% of them are trolls. When the OP just seems to lead people on and on making the situation sound even worse with each post, I'm not buying it.
I think that is a wonderful, wonderful idea Dracko. If we all agreed to use that form answer, (OR answer with complete tact, or not answer at all) then the friction round here would be greatly reduced in hot threads. It would make our forum friendlier for members/guests/lurkers/newbies.

I have no problem investing the time to write something up. I also have no problem if another member wants to do it.

Thx - Marko
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  #107  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracko View Post
I'm wondering if it would be helpful if the senior members who typically respond to the spay/neuter type threads could come up with some sort of a form answer for an OP who requests information on breeding, etc. Something friendly that might state that Pets.ca is a pro spay/neuter forum and the reasons why.
Marko, I am directing this to you because, I would really appreciated your clarifying the bolded part above. The policy on this board clearly states the following:

"Most people on this forum are against declawing cats, and are against banning specific dog breeds. Most people on this forum are VERY pro spay/neuter, and are against backyard breeding. Most people on this board will beg, borrow and max out their credit cards to see a veterinarian when their pets are ill."

To me there is an important difference between being a pro spay/neuter forum and being a forum on which most of the members are VERY pro spay/neuter.

One individual who posted on here just apologized for posting on this site because he/she "was not aware that this site is only for people who are against not neutering."
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  #108  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikischo View Post

To me there is an important difference between being a pro spay/neuter forum and being a forum on which most of the members are VERY pro spay/neuter.

One individual who posted on here just apologized for posting on this site because he/she "was not aware that this site is only for people who are against not neutering."
To me it is the members who make up the "theme" of a forum, it is human nature. I go back to what I have said before: "Birds of a feather flock together". Plus, since most members are pro spay/neuter, they are probably not going to be able to answer breeding questions

I don't believe in the bullcrap that everybody can co-exist when the subject is a very passionate one, sorry, but I don't. To me if there were breeders on this forum posting about their recent litter they have had and another member has just had to refuse a weekend away with the girls because she had to take care/transport fosters then it is like throwing $hit in the face of this rescuer. Or the rescuer could only take 1 cat or dog from a high kill shelter knowing there are 10 left behind to die. This a very passionate subject and you will get explosions. We are HUMAN, not robots (and add some PMSing in the equation ).

Just my
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  #109  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
To me it is the members who make up the "theme" of a forum, it is human nature. I go back to what I have said before: "Birds of a feather flock together". Plus, since most members are pro spay/neuter, they are probably not going to be able to answer breeding questions

I don't believe in the bullcrap that everybody can co-exist when the subject is a very passionate one, sorry, but I don't. To me if there were breeders on this forum posting about their recent litter they have had and another member has just had to refuse a weekend away with the girls because she had to take care/transport fosters then it is like throwing $hit in the face of this rescuer. Or the rescuer could only take 1 cat or dog from a high kill shelter knowing there are 10 left behind to die. This a very passionate subject and you will get explosions. We are HUMAN, not robots (and add some PMSing in the equation ).

Just my
AMEN L4h...Amen! Thank you for the reminder and maybe some understanding on why things may go sideways.
  #110  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
To me it is the members who make up the "theme" of a forum, it is human nature. I go back to what I have said before: "Birds of a feather flock together". Plus, since most members are pro spay/neuter, they are probably not going to be able to answer breeding questions

I don't believe in the bullcrap that everybody can co-exist when the subject is a very passionate one, sorry, but I don't. To me if there were breeders on this forum posting about their recent litter they have had and another member has just had to refuse a weekend away with the girls because she had to take care/transport fosters then it is like throwing $hit in the face of this rescuer. Or the rescuer could only take 1 cat or dog from a high kill shelter knowing there are 10 left behind to die. This a very passionate subject and you will get explosions.
Just my

There are plenty of breeding sites/forums out there where breeders can go and brag about how well SallyJeans litter is doing. Google them and you will find a ton. There are NO pro s/n forums where people who feel strongly about the issue can go and let their feelings be known. I feel at home here on Pets because I know there are a large majority who feel the way I do.
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  #111  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:38 AM
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I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. Like, right now, we don't allow any questions to be asked about emergency health situations...we close those threads. Should s/n/breeding question threads be closed as well with a similar admonishment that it's against the rules?

Personally, I don't see "breeder" and "pro-S/N" or "active rescuer" as being mutually exclusive. I think it's possible that we miss out on opportunities to generate partnerships with knowledgeable allies. But that's just my

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  #112  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:50 AM
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I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. Like, right now, we don't allow any questions to be asked about emergency health situations...we close those threads. Should s/n/breeding question threads be closed as well with a similar admonishment that it's against the rules?

Personally, I don't see "breeder" and "pro-S/N" or "active rescuer" as being mutually exclusive. I think it's possible that we miss out on opportunities to generate partnerships with knowledgeable allies. But that's just my

*ducks to avoid the rotten tomatoes flying my way*
I think you missed what I was trying to say. I don't care that there are breeders here or that there are folks here who feel it is not necessary to s/n their pets. All I meant is there are lots of breeding sites available. There are not many sites I can go to and feel comfortable with my thoughts and feelings. Right now it's all about fairness to the breeders, the people who don't feel they should fix their pets. How about some fairness to the ones of us who do feel the need to s/n? We are a growing majority, thank Dawg. Don't we deserve a place where we feel we can let loose? To me that's what Pets.ca is. I think the rules are fine the way they are. As they say - Pets has developed a certain pulse over the years. I feel proud that in my own small way I helped make it so.

And no tomatoes. I leave those for the people I don't like.
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  #113  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:55 AM
driver8 driver8 is offline
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Do you want to make it such a cliquey place that people who don't share ____ views are chased away and told they don't belong? Officially even, with closed threads.

What about the side of things that if you don't chase them away and they stay, they'll learn some other stuff. And maybe so will some of the existing members learn from them. How "open" is your community to new members in general? It sounds like some of you don't care about that.

Breeding isn't the only issue I've seen people get snarky unwelcoming replies about. How many issues do the newbies have to agree with you on before they're allowed to feel welcome.
  #114  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:58 AM
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bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
I think you missed what I was trying to say. I don't care that there are breeders here or that there are folks here who feel it is not necessary to s/n their pets. All I meant is there are lots of breeding sites available. There are not many sites I can go to and feel comfortable with my thoughts and feelings. Right now it's all about fairness to the breeders, the people who don't feel they should fix their pets. How about some fairness to the ones of us who do feel the need to s/n? We are a growing majority, thank Dawg. Don't we deserve a place where we feel we can let loose? To me that's what Pets.ca is. I think the rules are fine the way they are. As they say - Pets has developed a certain pulse over the years. I feel proud that in my own small way I helped make it so.

I totally get where you're coming from, I guess I'm just thinking about how we, as a community, can best avoid the situations where threads go off course and feelings get hurt and strong words are spoken to new posters. If pets had an offical stance on these things, these threads could be closed with a quick "please refer to forum policy" note, end of discussion. I think it's ambiguous right now, and new people are scared away without really understanding what they did wrong. If we are NOT going to talk about those particular subjects, then we should make it clear ahead of time. It's not the position I personally would take, because it would make us uninviting, but it is an option, and I'm throwing it out there.


And no tomatoes. I leave those for the people I don't like.
Phew.
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  #115  
Old October 1st, 2010, 11:58 AM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post
I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. Like, right now, we don't allow any questions to be asked about emergency health situations...we close those threads. Should s/n/breeding question threads be closed as well with a similar admonishment that it's against the rules?
I don't see it as a "rule" that the admins have to make., I see it as a "theme" of thoughts and ideas for people to come together to converse . Policy about health questions, I am pretty sure, stem from liability issues the admins would have on their hands should a member give wrong advice.

I guess you could have breeders and rescuers together, in theory anyways, but being human, I think you would continually get clashes.

As 14+ stated, this is by far the most pro spay/neuter forum out there and that is why pro spay/neuter members stick around.
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  #116  
Old October 1st, 2010, 12:00 PM
Mirela Mirela is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bendyfoot View Post
I guess it might be a good idea to determine what the official stance of the forum is...not the overarching opinion, but the formal policy. [.....]
I absolutely agree with this. To me, as a newcomer with no experience as a pet owner, the "formal" stance of this forum did not prepare me for the grilling I've got in my first thread.

I've read "Most people on this forum are against declawing cats, and are against banning specific dog breeds. Most people on this forum are VERY pro spay/neuter, and are against backyard breeding. Most people on this board will beg, borrow and max out their credit cards to see a veterinarian when their pets are ill."
... and I thought - Yes! all of this is good and I feel the same so,...on to register.... only to get admonished for buying a puppy from a breeder instead of adopting from a shelter or rescue.
In my mind, being "pro spay/neuter" meant being a responsible owner and neutering my dog but sometimes on this forum it means "no breeding whatsoever, by anybody".

I guess clarifying this stance might avoid some unpleasant situations.
  #117  
Old October 1st, 2010, 12:02 PM
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Bendy, just read you reply to 14+: Sometimes it takes me so long to write , I am not a person of words

I don't think they necessarily should be closed, only if they start getting off course. Some people may give some of our advice to spay/neuter, check the pet overpopulation, etc., etc. some thought and change their minds.

Perhaps an official post by the Admins that we can post a link to specifically discussing the pro spay/neuter issues and see where the OP goes from there.

If you get any tomatoes, send them my way, I could eat them till the cows come home.
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Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
  #118  
Old October 1st, 2010, 12:06 PM
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bendyfoot bendyfoot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I don't see it as a "rule" that the admins have to make., I see it as a "theme" of thoughts and ideas for people to come together to converse .
But since only indicate it's a "theme" and then we get pissed at new posters when they offer alternate lines of discussion, it doesn't seem fair. Remove the ambiuity, and you remove any possibility of hurt feelings or nasty retaliation. You never see an angry response of "hey, you closed my thread!" after we close a medical emerg thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Policy about health questions, I am pretty sure, stem from liability issues the admins would have on their hands should a member give wrong advice.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so...members give eachother advice, including about supplements, OTC medications etc all the time, some of which could actually be harmful (easy example: New Poster: My dog is limping a bit, seems sore. Reponse: Give some baby asprin. Potential problem: if the dog is already on another antiinflamatory, or has a blood issue or stomach ulcers or...it could cause problems). I just thought we had the policy because it was in the animal's best interest.
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Patrick - blue - a little turd (but we like him anyways) (6 months)
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  #119  
Old October 1st, 2010, 12:19 PM
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14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
Do you want to make it such a cliquey place that people who don't share ____ views are chased away and told they don't belong? Officially even, with closed threads.
By their very nature forums over time DO become cliquey. No one is told they don't belong. NO ONE. If they chose to take it that way so be it. I agree we can tone it down. I'm working on it. But I am what I am. Anyone who has met me in person will tell you the same.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Last edited by 14+kitties; October 1st, 2010 at 12:36 PM.
  #120  
Old October 1st, 2010, 12:23 PM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
By their very nature forums over time DO become cliquey. No one is told they don't belong. NO ONE. If they choses to take it that way so be it. I agree we can tone it down. I'm working on it. But I am what I am. Anyone who has met me in person will tell you the same.
Absolutely they do become cliquey! It is human nature. I have seen it in another forum I am a member of (health related).
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Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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