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For those it interests, minimum breeding ages.
In our latest monthly gazette down here in Victoria, Australia,(received today) they have published a list of all the breeds and the minimum age we are now allowed to mate them. I won't say it's a guide line to go by, a lot of you would say it's not strict enough, but if you would like to see what they say for 'your' breed, just let me know what it is. I think there will be some unhappy sheltie breeders. They believe that for the female's sake, the earlier the better, but now they can't mate them till they are 16 months. ACD's can be mated after 12 months, they are a fast maturing breed, but most people wait till their 2nd or 3rd heat anyway.
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#2
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Interesting... I found the list here:
http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.ph...ode=linearplus I still believe that ~2 years is generally best, even for the little breed I love that's in the 12 month list... for health clearances, maturity, etc. |
#3
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What forms of health testing do you have there? Here you can not get things like hips and elbows done until 18 months (if you go OVC) and 24 months for OFA, you can run prelims at 18 months.
After having bred a 2 year old, I think I would rather wait until 3 for my breed. What are your guidelines for Tibetan Mastiffs?
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#4
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To me it's not just about the dog being physically mature enough to breed, they have to have their health testing done. Also, what sort of credible titles can you have on a 1yr old dog? I know that's not the norm in all breeds, but I like to see some sort of obedience or working title on a dog that is being bred to justify the breeding. That may include show titles for the dog's conformation for some one else not into the working aspect of dogs. Even if tests are done and titles obtained, I would be questionable of a breeder that is breeding a 2yr old female. What's the rush? I MUCH rather buy from an older dog that is proven. |
#5
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Some breeds though have a pretty small window to safely carry and whelp a litter at older ages, but 3 isnt old.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#6
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Choochi, curiosity makes me ask, how many dual titled breeding dogs do you own? I don't even know what breed you have so can't even ponder whether the perfect parents you are after would be common in your breed.
Erykah1310, I'd like to answer you in depth but am very busy, sort of a late Spring cleaning going on. If you follow that thread AnneCS put on here you'll no doubt read a bit about testing people do here. I agree with what you've said in that last post by the way. |
#7
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How about not breeding at all and allow those dogs who don't have a home find one instead of finding themselves in gas chambers .
__________________
Cat maid to: Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs) Jasper RIP (2001-2018) Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014) Puddles RIP (1996-2014) Snowball RIP (1991-2005) In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb “While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey |
#8
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L4H, i understand your take on breeding and your opinions on the matter, as do I understand and know of the hundred of thousands of cats and dogs in shelters.
Every inquiry I have had this years on future litters and before even discussing placement on a waiting list I have pointed prospective puppy homes to petfinder, once the interview process has started for some and the realization that a TM may not be the right fit for them arrives, we have had lenghty discussions about other breeds that may be more suitable and again I recommend shelters first, then breed clubs. Now, I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to purchase a pup or dog with the odds stacked in their favor of good health and temperament. Some people would rather spend more upfront for guarantees. Having had several rescues ( however most of mine were older and not likely to find their forever homes and were riddled with various health problems either genetic or environmental) I will not stop purchasing from reputable breeders and knowing the chances are higher that this is exactly what I am looking for, along side of taking in dogs in need when able to. I hope this thread does not take the ugly turn that the previous thread did in regards to breeding. Just because this is a pro spay/neuter board where the majority of members are firm on only rescueing, as the title of the board states it is pets.ca, not rescue.ca or breeders.ca, I do believe that we are able to discuss what ever topic comes up with out turning it into a battle between animal lovers who truely do want what is best even if it is on the other side of the spectrum. We do not label all rescues and shelters the same, there are good bad and ugly, when it comes to rescues as well as there is breeders. I do not paint all rescues with the same brush as the bad ones and honestly would never dream of doing so. However it is so acceptable for all breeders to be painted as such. The condescending tone on this forum towards any breeder is rediculous, and while I am sure many members around here would much rather me not be here stating my opinions regardless if it goes against the grain of the clique or not
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#9
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I'm just going to quote the list from that link above, saves people bouncing back and forth
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This list is quite bizarre to me, I cant quite wrap my head around it.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#10
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In most cases as per the list...it looks to me like babies haveing babies. Sorry but I cannot get passed the thought that my own min pin could have been breed as early as 1 year old. How very very sad.
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#11
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Depending on what breed of dog I was looking for and for what purpose, my requirements for the parents would be different. However even if I was looking for a simple pet quality dog (first of all for that purpose I would have just adopted a rescue, but that's beside the point), I would expect to see at the very bare minimum health testing, and one title of any sort be it work, obedience, or show, even something fun like agility, flyball, or dock diving. I wouldn't want to support a breeder who breeds for the sake of breeding and does nothing with her dogs to test their abilities and keep them busy. |
#12
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Wow thanks for posting that. That list makes absolutely no sense at all. Labradors ok to breed at 12months? Bullmastiff at 18 moths?? These dogs are not even done growing at these ages! Never mind all the health testing that can't be done. Babies having babies indeed. Which organization has issued this sorry excuse of ethical guidelines? It would have been better if this wasn't even issued. This may actually encourage people to breed earlier then they would have. People who were already breeding earlier then these recommended ages wouldn't be reputable breeders who have the best interest of their dogs in mind to begin with. |
#13
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It absolutely is babies having babies... very sad and will be used as a loop hole unfortunately.
I think it should be minimum 24 months regardless of breed. By bumping back the recommended breeding age wouldnt that open the door for a female being "able" to have that extra litter as well? Most breeds recommend no more than 3 breedings some even 2. Starting them younger will boost that number I'm sure. I agree this would be better off not published. I can not think of one reason that a lab (or any of the others on that list) should be able to breed at a year old.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#14
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Thank you Choochi for your courageous post. |
#15
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erykah1310, they are far more (what's the word) generous in how many litters females can have here, I think it might be 6. Just shows that, no matter how many times someone here tells me that dog over population is not just a Canadian problem, I don't think it's anywhere near that sort of problem here. The 1980's was the boom time for show dogs I'd say, with huge entries, but then the memberships started dropping alarmingly. I don't know what it stands at, at the moment. And before you start saying poor girls, that isn't set in stone, not everyone would want 6 litters. Only one of mine had 2 litters, the rest only a solitary litter when I was after a show pup, and not every female was bred with anyway. Snoopy(foundation ACD female, born in `1976) had just one litter at 4 years of age, with every whelping problem imagineable, I would never mate a maiden bitch that late again. I didn't mate her daughter ever, I got a pup from another daughter I'd given to a friend on breeder's terms, and she was 4 years old too(though with earlier litters) when I got that pup. From then on those I kept were whelping as 2 year olds, except for my last 3, which I didn't breed from at all. So, while we have loads of freedom here, people don't often take advantage of it. I thought they were game compiling that list of minimum breeding ages, it's bound to cause a lot of argument, and a lot will be agreeing with people here. Choochi, no offence but I see wanting titled parents as a form of snobbery. The rescue/foster/adopted dogs don't have them. I can say my Ch's were great show dogs but some of you might have better rescues, meaning where conformation is concerned, and an obedience dog is only as good as the owner wants it to be. Some breeds are excellent, but they aren't stupid just because the owner couldn't be bothered taking up that hobby. I chose my foundation ACD from a top obedience line, her mum was the first Aust. Obedience CH for the breed, and yes, I got a ripper dog, worth her weight in gold as a worker and guard dog, BUT just because she lacked titles herself didn't mean she was of a lesser value as a breeder, just means I didn't have time or the inclination to show or trial her. I then got a dog that had both parents obedience titled and it was the most disobedient dog I've ever owned. Go figure. My current old red dog lived up to his breeding, but just because his pedigree only contains heaps of conformation Ch titles, would you ignore him because there are no obedience titles? He's proved a joy to live with, always wanting to please us, so I say forget the titles, find out what parents and grandparents are like to live with and handle. I'd seen his around the show scene for years. |
#16
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Well put, BenMax. I know very limited information about breeding dogs, but this just seems far too young for some of these dogs to be having pups. It'd be like a 12 year old having a baby...
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My babies: Sassy - Maltese X (9), Furby - Shihtzu X (7), Brynn - Boxer (3), Diesel - Boxer (1) "Many of the Earth's habitats, animals, plants, insects, and even micro-organisms that we know as rare may not be known at all by future generations. We have the capability, and the responsibility. We must act before it is too late." - Dalai Lama |
#17
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The same people that already stated their opinion probably have the exact same thoughts that they did yesterday. I don't think anyone was influenced or swayed based on other discussions in other threads.
Very informative though. I did not think things were actually worse then they are. Wrong again it appears. And just to add: I think that you are taking Choochi's comments completely out of context. |
#18
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I think you have been on this forum long enough to know there is only one person who actively makes it know she plans on (or has already) bred, so I am not sure what audience you were targeting?
Also, since I don't think opinions have changed since the last closed thread about breeding, I am wondering what you were expecting from starting this thread?
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Cat maid to: Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs) Jasper RIP (2001-2018) Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014) Puddles RIP (1996-2014) Snowball RIP (1991-2005) In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb “While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey Last edited by Love4himies; February 2nd, 2011 at 09:33 AM. |
#19
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I'm by no means an expert, but with the little knowledge I do have - I can say with pretty much certainty that a Dane should NOT be bred at the age of 2. OFA is only done at the minimum age of 2, along with the rest of the tests. Secondly, a Dane can continue to grow and mature up until 3 yrs of age - so in my opinion, 3 would be the absolute earliest you would want to consider breeding.
I think lists like the above are dangerous and give the average 'Joe' the green light to go ahead because someone wrote it down and published it. The decision to breed should never be taken lightly, and what is right for one Dane (for example) at the age of 3 yrs old may not be right for another one at the same age. A reputable breeder will know their dogs well enough to make that decision, in my opinion. |
#20
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So I guess millers can also follow these guidelines then? It is no wonder animals cannot be seized then when you are breeding puppies to have puppies. It just does not sound logical to me. What it sounds like is the minimum age to pump out profit. Oh yes...that is right, there is no money to be made in breeding.. It's a HUGE sacrifice to breed. |
#21
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Ok Seriously now... Which type of breeding are you talking about? Here we go again, ALL breeding is EXACTLY the same right ? I guess by your logic it is safe to say that all rescues and shelters are the same then. If one does something sketchy all must be doing it too. Why is it that anytime there is a thread that gets under someones skin there is the need to try to kill it? Do I agree with the publication of the list? Absolutely NOT. I completely agree that is doing nothing more than giving a sketchy breeder the green light to go ahead and breed young dogs as "the list said it was ok" Those breeder look for any reason to start breeding young, its not uncommon for back yard breeders and mills to breed first cycle regardless of a list like this. this list just packs amunition when then they are called on it.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#22
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__________________
Cat maid to: Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs) Jasper RIP (2001-2018) Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014) Puddles RIP (1996-2014) Snowball RIP (1991-2005) In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb “While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey |
#23
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I suggest you adjust your tone. |
#24
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actually, just to clarify something, they don't plan breed, they put a male in with all the females and whatever happens happens.
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"For every animal that dies in a shelter, there is someone somewhere responsible for its death". |
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"For every animal that dies in a shelter, there is someone somewhere responsible for its death". |
#26
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Reputable breeders don't advertise on kijiji. Did you also know that it's not uncommon for BYB to actually charge MORE for puppies than a reputable breeder would? |
#27
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On the other hand, this could very well be a non breeding female in said ad who was not to be bred but is and pups sold with no registration so there fore no COE matter to said person and it would be all profit for them. Its a pretty broad brush we all get painted with, some of the hairs on it stray.
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Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#28
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I'll say it again, to think you can have those who are so passionate and give up their lives to save unwanted animals and then people start talking about bringing more into the world does not work. Humans are emotional and the more passionate they are, the more emotional they will be. The one thing that makes Pets.ca such a wonderful site are the members who give up so much to save dogs and cats. It is the one site that is so pro spay/neuter that we can come and rant/talk/share. There are so many other dog forums out there that do have "breeding" forums that breeders could go to, I just don't understand why the few breeders stick around and throw it in rescuers' faces. It is like a kick in the gut.
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Cat maid to: Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs) Jasper RIP (2001-2018) Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014) Puddles RIP (1996-2014) Snowball RIP (1991-2005) In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb “While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey |
#29
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Thanks for the "suggestion" I dont see the need though
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne |
#30
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