Protein

[raingirl]

Ok...I have a question.

If high protein is bad for dogs (makes the kidneys work harder as protein is not stored) why are raw foods and better quality foods high in Protein (Innova Evo is like 42% protein, when vets recommend 20-23%).

I just thought that if you feed less of the food, you get the same amount of protein in the long run..am I wrong. If you feed 4 cups of 20% protein per day, or 2 cups of 40% protein per day, do you get the same amount of protein per day in the end?

I also heard it's a myth that too much protein causes kidney problems, as the tests were done on rats, not dogs.

[Prin]

I don't know... I have to research more, but I have heard that 23% protein is the best too. Rats are omnivores (aren't they?) so it would makes sense that their systems would be damaged by excessive protein, but since dogs are carnivores, maybe they can tolerate protein better... Innova is supposedly a good food, but I don't know if the huge protein amounts are good for the dog. We'd have to watch some doggies age on it. Also the better the protein source is the more protein is probably absorbed, too, to Purina's 23% might be not even close to innova's 42%... You'd have to test the stool for protein that is not absorbed...

[coppperbelle]

Just a word about Innova. I have heard at least two horror stories from people who have put their dogs on this food. The dogs have become violently ill and have life long problems because of it. One can now only eat a certain prescription food otherwise she gets diarrhea. She is also on medication everyday. This is months after going off the Innova.

When I was looking for a new food I went to a store in the U.S. I had my mind set on buying the Solid Gold, Wolf King but the clerk in the store kept pushing Innova (this is before I heard of the problems). He told me it was the best food etc.... I hate to be hassled into something and became annoyed and went with my original choice, Solid Gold. When I came home I went on another message board and mentioned what had happened. This is when I heard of the problems many were having with this food. I was so relieved I had not listened to the clerk.
I have returned to store to buy Solid Gold and each and every time a different employee will approach me and try to convince me to buy Innova. When I say no, they tell me that Solid Gold is good too but Innova is the best. One guy tells me he has 4 dogs on it. I asked him if he had any problems and he did tell me that one of his Danes had bloody diarrhea when he put him on it. HE had to do the switch very slowly (90% old - 10% new). They even gave me a free bag which is still on my counter in the kitchen. I don't know what to do with it.

I am sure many dogs do fine on this food but I am not willing to take a chance.

[Natasa]

Basically its not about the % of protein in the food, but about quality and body’s ability to utilize it.

High protein kibble is quite different from raw (high protein) mainly because of the moisture content (60-70 % of water in raw, almost none in kibble) which makes it much easier for kidneys to process it and get rid of any waste. Also protein in dry food is cooked and processed protein which is greatly altered during “kibbling” process and dogs might not be able to utilize all of it.

IMO Evo is way too high in processed protein without having moisture and that will eventually damage kidneys.

[raingirl]

Thanks. That does clear up a lot. I think Heelers has her dogs on Evo..it's supposed to be raw in kibble form. Maybe it's not cooked then? I would be concerned about the moisture too.

So...high protein is ok if there is moisture there to help digest it, so raw or canned would be good.

Too bad they can't put raw in a can....darn botulism!

I'm just trying to find the right food for my dog. I want one that is grain free (so probably a potato based one) that doesn't have chicken or beef, preferably dairy free as well, and no eggs, preferably holistic. Any such food exist? I was thinking the wellness or solid gold, but solid gold doesn't have any grain free or low grain foods. I like the look of the Wellness "Simple Solutions" for sensitive dogs. It has rice as the carb though. Is rice considered a grain? Here are the ingredients? What do you think?

Ground Brown Rice, Venison, Brown Rice Protein, Flaxseed, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Natural Venison Flavor, Taurine, MINERALS: [Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate (a chelated source of zinc), Iron Proteinate (a chelated source of iron), Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate (a chelated source of copper), Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate (a chelated source of manganese), Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite], VITAMINS: [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin C, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin K Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement].

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein Not Less Than 21.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than 12.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than 3.0%
Moisture Not More Than 11.0%
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 2.5%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 0.5%
*not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO dog food Nutrient Profiles

[bluntman]

Originally Posted by raingirl

Too bad they can't put raw in a can....darn botulism!

No, they can't put it in a can, but they do put it in sealed plastic bag and freeze it. Zena is on B.A.R.F, I feed her Healthy Paws.http://www.healthy-paws.ca/
It's as easy as canned food, just thaw and serve. She really loves it, and there is no way I could get her to eat kibble again.

[raingirl]

I would love to do that, but I don't have a big enough freezer to freeze it all! I live in an apartment and we aren't allowed to have chest freezers either...

[Prin]

The thing is, if a dog went out and caught something, the meat would never be 42% protein. Normal chicken is less than 30%.

I wouldn't use it. On another message board an a** was peddling it too. Raw would never have that much protein. If something is 70% water, it can't be 42% protein...

[2Cats&AGolden]

Originally Posted by raingirl

I would love to do that, but I don't have a big enough freezer to freeze it all! I live in an apartment and we aren't allowed to have chest freezers either...

I live in a townhouse with only the top of the fridge as a freezer, and we have been feeding our goldie raw for almost 3 years! Where there is a will, there's a way My husband always jokes that the dog eats better than him!

[raingirl]

Yeah...but because I decorate cakes as a side business, my freezer is full of frozen undecorated cakes and icings and such...no room for raw. We barely have enough room to store other food in there.

[kandy]

I found this site that tells you how to determine the actual protein content:

http://www.bestfriends.org/members/health/dognutr.htm

It also has some good information about how much of what that a dog needs. Hope this helps!

[2Cats&AGolden]

Originally Posted by raingirl

Yeah...but because I decorate cakes as a side business, my freezer is full of frozen undecorated cakes and icings and such...no room for raw.

Ah, too bad...but I can see why you wouldn't want to mix up a bunch of doggy meat with all that yummy cake stuff!

[Prin]

I have room in my freezer for cakes!!

[raingirl]

Hahah. I think Montreal is a little far to store my supplies. But thanks anyway!!

Kandy, that's a great site! Lots of clarification on the protein issue.

I think I am going to go with the Wellness Simple Solutions and do an elimination diet....

[Prin]

oh, I didn't mean to STORE them... lol...

Just make sure your doggy likes wellness. Some doggies would rather starve than eat it.

[Daiana]

If you need someone to take some of those cakes off your hands to make room in the freezer......I'm sure I can help "look after" a few of them for you - no charge!!!

[kandy]

I would also volunteer my services as a "cake babysitter"!

[lovemygirls]

Originally Posted by Prin

The thing is, if a dog went out and caught something, the meat would never be 42% protein. Normal chicken is less than 30%.

I wouldn't use it. On another message board an a** was peddling it too. Raw would never have that much protein. If something is 70% water, it can't be 42% protein...

I'm not quite sure I follow your logic. If your math is correct, please explain to me how a dog can get the recommended 18% - 23% protein from a food that has grains as it's top ingredients. If meat, as you suggest, is less than 30% protein, then in order for a dog to get 23% protein, it would have to eat a LOT more meat than anything else!

The concept is that 23% of the calories should come from protein and the 70% water you are referring to has ZERO calories.

A 4oz chicken breast has approximately 120 calories and approximately 20 grams of protein. Each gram of protein makes up 4 calories. That's 80 of the 120 calories attributable to protien - or 67%.

Don't get me wrong - I don't advocate the extraordinarily high protein food either - as I don't know enough about it to have an opinion. But I really don't like misinformation that would lead people to believe that this food has more protein than an ALL meat diet. It's just not true.

[Prin]

Then why do pure chicken breasts say less? I guess they do it by weight and not by caloric intake. Like 100g of chicken breast would have 19.85 g of protein, therefore 19.85% protein, so 30% would be great...

Also the problem with the human stats, is they remove the possible calories from the "inedible" parts: bone, skin, fat, and "refuse"-- whatever that may be... And those would certainly boost the calories and perhaps the protein too. But then the chicken they use might be lower in protein because it's not as high quality as human standard meat...

Look at Eukanuba Maintenance formula. First four ingredients: Chicken (water included), chicken by-products (water still included), Cornmeal (water removed), Ground Whole Grain Sorghum (no water if it's ground)...

If 100g of corn is 77.03% moisture, and 2.55g of protein, you remove the water and you get 2.55 g protein per 22.97g. Then you take the Sorghum, remove the water and you get 11.3g of protein/90.2g.

Now let's say that the byproducts are broken down as they say for human chicken: Bone- 35%, Refuse- 56%, fat- 10%, Skin- 11%. And of that maybe just the bone has protein, so we'll generously say 35% of the by-products is protein.

Red meat chicken has 20.08g protein/100 grams, and 76% water.

So if you have 100g red meat chicken, 99.5g byproducts, 99g cornmeal, 98g sorghum, then you get the following protein amounts (for each amount of the ingredient used):
Chicken: 20.08g
Byproducts: 34.825g
Corn: 10.9904g
Sorghum: 12.196g
Total protein: 78.0914g
Total weight of ingredients: 396.5g
Protein: 19.70%, but of this, 74.3% of the protein comes from the by-products, corn and sorghum-- Not the "good" chicken. And a third of it comes from grains that the doggy probably won't absorb. Whew.

But if a food has chicken MEAL or salmon meal or any other meal, then right away so much more of the protein content is from meat.

If you feed a raw diet, chances are the mass of the protein will never be 42% of the total, but the other stuff that is not the protein will probably be more beneficial to the doggy than the stuff in dog food. If the meat has 30% protein (in mass), pretty well all of that will be protein that is easily metabolized by the dog. So it's 30% period. Not 30% minus, minus minus. Maybe Innova does put the protein content based on calories, but most dog foods' percentages are by weight. Hey, anything to boost the numbers right? I guess the foods with corn in them can't write it as calories because if the dog doesn't absorb any of it, it would be 0%, right?

But if Innova Evo is really 42% protein by weight, maybe that's why a lot of doggies have trouble with it. I don't think it's all that great to have more protein than there is in real meat. I don't think dogs need more than there is naturally available... Right?

Sorry ---It's really late and I have rambled on for a while... Did that make sense at all? I kind of wanted to work it out for myself, but I thought I would share too...

[greaterdane]

I know I was told to stay away from Innova because danes can only have a specific amount of protein. Innova was on my no no list.

[Cactus Flower]

*Holds head, groans*......

You should warn people before posting such disturbing images. How could you be so thoughtless? Don't you know that some people get VERY sick when they have to look at MATH?????

[Prin]

LOL I thought by doing all the math for you, you wouldn't get such a headache from using your thinking parts...

[heeler's rock!]

Sorry to rehash an old thread, but I just finished talking to my SIL who's mal is on Evo. Although the mal has had no physical signs of problems, he went for blood work yesterday and the vet says he's having some sort of kidney problems. She asked what food he's on, and my SIL told her Evo. She'd never heard of it, but when she heard of the 42% protein, she said that could be what's causing it. The only way to be sure she said is to take him off Evo for a month,a nd put him on Science Diet as that's the only food that has been scientifically tested to be nutritionally sound for dogs. And, they sell it! How convenient! I told her to take him off Evo for the month, but not to do the Science Diet. Too many fillers. She's gonna try either Wellness, or Solid Gold Wolf King. I'm taking my oldest heeler in for blood work and such to check out her kidney function aswell. I might just move them all to regular Innova as that only has 25% protein.

The vet also said that ever since raw diets became more popular, more dogs ae coming in with kidney problems that eat it. So, if raw has less protein than say Evo, why would that cause kidney problems?

[heeler's rock!]

Hmmm...

Just found this site advocating raw diets. Interesting stuff said about high protein and dogs.

http://www.naturalpetfood.com/whyfeed.html

[savannah]

"Just make sure your doggy likes wellness. Some doggies would rather starve than eat it."

I can attest to that! I had to give up on feeding my female wellness, after i bought a huge bag thinking she would like it. Luckily, my new male dog seems to be okay eating it. He does prefer my female's Merricks though. So once the wellness is almost gone, i will switch it so that they both eat Merricks. I would seriously ask for a sample size first.

[Prin]

Originally Posted by heeler's rock!

Hmmm...

Just found this site advocating raw diets. Interesting stuff said about high protein and dogs.

http://www.naturalpetfood.com/whyfeed.html

I don't know about that because the guy is saying that freezing meat kills all the salmonella and E coli, which it does NOT. The fact said that it pauses the reproduction process and he takes it as it kills them. They just wait till they're thawed and start reproducing again.

I agree with the idea that dogs need protein, but I just feel that if raw has 20%-30% meat protein, dog food should not be higher than that. (Of course I'm not talking about percentage of calories, but percentage of weight.)

[coppperbelle]

This is not the first time I have heard of dogs having problems with the Evo food. I know of at least two people who have fed Innova and now their dogs have life long problems. Whether the problems were caused by the food or were aggravated by it is unknown.

[heeler's rock!]

We're hoping that my SIL's mal doesn't have lifelong problems, and we're hoping the food is the cause, and not something worse. it's not really fair of me to say that it's the food for sure, as we won't know until the end of next month. If it is the food, he'll be on a reduced protein food like regular Innova (25% protein), Wellness (no less than 22%), or something else. We'll have to do our research. We of course will take our 3 dogs off of it aswell if it's found the food is the cause.

[coppperbelle]

Last weekend I was in a pet food store and a lady was looking at the different bags of food. We started talking and she said she was looking for a food with less protein. I asked her why and she said that her rotti was a little aggressive and she heard that lowering his protein intake would help. I advised her to get obedience training and feed him a good quality food like Wellness instead. She took my advice.

[Prin]

Did you tell her that the Greek Dog Testiklees also causes aggression?