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Old January 28th, 2008, 01:20 AM
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Myka Myka is offline
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Myka's transition to Raw

Hey all. I have had the Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog book since it first came out in 2000. I'm looking to finally change my dog over to raw after humming and hawing about it since just before I bought that book. Really, I'm just scared to do it, that I won't do it right, and it will be more detrimental than feeding her kibble.

She's been on Nutro's Natural Choice Large Breed Adult for years. When she was a pup I tried lots of different foods from expensive (Ebo Innova, Solid Gold, etc) to semi-cheap (like Nutro/Nutrience). She seemed to do the best on Nutro's so that's what we stuck with.

Anywho...I've searched on this forum looking for details on what people are feeding, and all I'm getting is info on raw meats. Surely you guys are feeding more than just meats...? I'd like to try the diet in the above mentioned book, but it is very detailed, and has a lot of different ingredients. I cook once a week for myself, and I cook enough to last all week. So in all honesty I just won't manage to do that intense diet in that book. I don't feel comfortable "just winging it", so I'd really like to find a diet recipe that is veterinary dietician recommended. Any recommendations?

Cheers!
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Last edited by Myka; January 28th, 2008 at 09:33 PM. Reason: had the wrong kibble listed
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Old January 28th, 2008, 02:52 AM
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TeriM TeriM is offline
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A great book to read that is easy to understand and quite basic is "the ultimate diet" by kymythy schultze. I personally feed mostly ground meat/bones plus some veggies and supplement with glucosamine and coconut oil. This is also quite a good link http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ and here are a few good threads on the subject:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....light=raw+food
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36865
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Old January 28th, 2008, 08:34 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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I am a prey model feeder and only feed meats and fish and I have found that most successful. Many years ago when I hopped on the raw bandwagon I also did the ground food vegetable slurry stuff, and now many years later, we are far more educated about raw diets, and many of the pitfalls of pseudo raw diets, so I only practice prey model feeding, ( 80% meat /10% bone / 10% offal), meaning whole meats and carcass and fish and no supplements, roots or other non species specific foods, and certainly no fruits or vegetables other than green tripe. To date, hands down to me it is the ultimate way to correctly feed a dog or cat. You may want to visit www.rawmeatybones.com and read Dr. Tom Lonsdale's book.

I gave someone a sample menu just the other day

20 lb sharpei

2 chicken wings
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine


100 lb chow chow

1/4 chicken or 1/2 chicken
1 tblsp green tripe
1 mackerel (approx 12 inches long)
1 chicken liver, 1 heart


Tuesday
20 lb sharpei

1 tsp green tripe
1 large salmon tail
1 sardine
raw egg


100 lb chow chow
2 or 3 salmon heads
4 or 5 sardines
1 tblsp green tripe
raw egg

Wednesday
20 lb sharpei

beef or pork or lamb short rib
small piece beef lung or esphogus
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine


100 lb chow chow
beef or pork or lamb short ribs
medium piece beef lung
1 tblsp green tripe
4-5 sardines


Thursday
20 lb sharpei
2 small hunks mackerel( 1 cup)
1/4 cup chicken gizzards

100 lb chow chow
4 1/2 cups of mackerel hunks
1/2 cup chicken gizzards

Friday
FAST - recreational bones only, or pigs ears, tails or feet maybe a couple of eggs

Saturday
20 lb sharpei
1 chicken leg or rabbit haunch
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine

100 lb chow chow

1/2 chicken or 1/2 rabbit
1 tblsp green tripe
3-4 sardines
1/4 cup chicken or pork gizzards


Nothing is ever written in stone with raw diets because too much depends on availability. It's just to try to give you an idea. The chicken could be pork or beef or lamb or beaver, or deer or rabbit, bison, moose, ... it all depends on what's on sale and on what we have access to that week or month. Also, please note that the above is geared to the age and activity level of those two specific dogs only. Menus can vary based on age, size and of course how active they are.

The one constant factor is the fatty fish. They get Omega fatty fish everyday.I also fast my dogs once a week. It's a big deal with sharpei because almost 100% of skin issues are caused by poor feeding practices which are easily remedied with RMB, so we have plenty of proof here at our rescue. All of our rescues now are raw fed. The advantages are just too great for us to ignore it now, and what we save in vet bills and skin ointments is very noticable. I've been feeding prey model raw for about 4 years now and I find it very successful.



If you found a good food that your dog is doing well on, why change? You can always supplement with some good , fresh, raw recreational bones to help your dog's teeth cleaning, and certainly add a sardine here and there or green tripe. There are now some very good commercial kibbles on the marketplace. To feed Raw properly, you have to be fairly committed to the diet, and to see results, you will have to stick with it for some time.

I was happy when you said: :"I don't feel comfortable "just winging it", - that's a very good approach, because you shouldn't 'dicker' with a raw diet or alternative diets without some sort of foundation or knowledge. In doing so, you could harm your dog instead of helping it. I'm a nutrition nut, study and work in that field, so raw makes perfect sense to me, and as I mentioned, given the breed we work with, raw diets and nutrional issues goes hand in hand, - BUT - I'll be the first to say, if you're doing ok now, don't change simply because it's a 'fad', or you're bored, or you simply 'think', you should be doing it. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with feeding a quality commercial kibble that your dog does well with. Why are you wanting to change? There is a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Cheers
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 28th, 2008 at 09:28 AM.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 03:21 PM
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want4rain want4rain is offline
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mostly just meats on this end. we also end up with about 10% of our 95lb lab mix's diet is.... whatever the kids throw on the floor. but to say, i make sure that what i feed him is enough to sustain him. at times thats barely (ie very little variety) due to finances but i believe what i give him is better than any of the hypoallergenic diets out there. ive posted a few times about my dogs and my cats weekly menu.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48655

(MerlinsHope, would you mind posting your 'raw philosophy' in there?? ive been meanign to IM you back!)

-ash
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Old January 28th, 2008, 09:42 PM
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Myka Myka is offline
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Wow! Thanks everyone for all the links and information!!

I'm not comfortable with a 100% meat diet. I know that coyotes and wolves eat quite a bit of "vegetarian" foods as well. I'm not really sure what they are eating, but simply by looking at coyote and wolf poop you can see that there is definately A LOT of non-meat foods in there. I would like to achieve as close to a "wild" diet as I can, as I'd like to believe this would be the best, but I would be very interested to know if domestic dogs' digestive systems have evolved differently than their wild counterparts...?

Now...to go read those links.
__________________
Ella - Jun '20 - Reg AmStaff
Squeak - '15/16? - Tabby cat (adopted Nov '18)
Streak - '18 - Black cat (adopted Nov '18)
Peewee - Jan '06 - 6.5 lb Chi (adopted May '09)
--------------------
Roxy - Feb '05 to May '20 AmStaff (adopted Jul '11)
Myka - Nov '98 to Jan '10 - APBT X
Lacy - Sep '92 to Jul '03 - Sheltie
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Old January 28th, 2008, 10:04 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
I know that coyotes and wolves eat quite a bit of "vegetarian" foods as well.
I am curious to know how you arrive at your observation of wild canids eating vegetarian foods as a regular food item.

Are you familiar with the work of L. Robert Mec,(sp) the renowned biologist who studied wolves in the wild? He cites that fox, wolves, coyotes basically eat what is available. For them, meat is not always available. Given that they are not always successful in hunting down meat, hunger forces them to eat other types of food, not necessarily by choice, but by availability, and given the choice, they will always choose meat over any other type of food . Canids are not necessarily discerning eaters and when starving will eat almost anything including road kill and garbage not to mention their own feces. He also cites that just prior to consuming animal carcass, the stomach contents are shaken out and removed and not consumed at all. So to say that they eat 'quite a bit of vegetarian foods', is very questionable.

It has already been proven that there are no nutritional requirements of fruit and vegetables, or carbs in a diet for canines. You have to remember that the principal reason that people started to use vegetable matter in raw diets, was an attempt to ensure a more complete nutritional value in the diet, very much similar to how corn or soy is still used as a viable protein in commercial kibble. We all now know that many dogs react to corn very negatively and we also now know that vegetables can have a similar impact on a dog's digestive system and organs. There are now documented detrimental effects from some varieties of vegetables in a dog's diet ie: carrots cause bloody stools, greens carry too many oxylates or are too high in Vitamin A causing kidney and bladder crystals, fruits carry far to much sugar encouraging diabetes, candidae , rotten teeth, etc.

Nowadays it is possible to feed entire carcass so there is little need for supplementing with external foods.

Also, vegetables and fruits literally have to be 'juiced', not ground, or pureed, but "juiced", to have any nutritional effects as canines lack the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose.

As far as your question regarding a dog's digestive system, it is the very same system that existed 2000 years ago. It has not changed at all and is designed to process foods in approximately 4 hours. Kibble stays in the gut for up to 8 hours, however raw usually makes it through in 4 or less. Of course genetics plays a major role here too. Some dogs and breeds are far more sensitive to foreign foods than other breeds are.

Another thing to remember as well is that many of these books came out between 1999 and 2002. It's now 2008, almost 10 years later so many of the ideals in those books are very outdated. We know a lot more now then we did 8 years ago.

Thanks - food for thought.
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 28th, 2008 at 10:36 PM.
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