Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Dog health - Ask members * If your pet is vomiting-bleeding-diarrhea etc. Vet time!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 13th, 2006, 01:29 AM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
When to euthanize??

I have posted a few questions about my 6 year old Rottie/Shepherd mix. He has been diagnosed with arthritis and hip dysplacia! I have tried MSM, Glucosamine, and Shark Cartlage tablets, there was some releif on his joints but now however with his arthritis and the weather(being so damp and mild) He is limping more than ever Its getting harder and harder for him to get up everyevening, hes great during the day, slow but he walks good! Around supper time he gets stiff and by night he can hardly get up! HE was recently put on an anti inflamitory (i believe) I cant remember the name off hand but i will repost that information later. its been about 4 weeks he has been on it and no change

Now to the point; when (in your opinions) is he suffering? He doesnt complain but it is heart breaking to see such a good dog having a hard time with day to day life! Another point that is very important here is that Puppy is 160lbs (come a long way from the 216 he was!) I obtained him this summer from an elderly man who could no longer care for him. I am afraid that one day he wont be able to stand up at all. I could never lift him alone! Please help your opinions will help me make a decision before I get to that point

Thank you all so much in advance
Erika
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old January 13th, 2006, 07:41 AM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
Rottie owner and lover
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,799
My way of thinking is way of life... If he can not enjoy 2 out of the 3 things that he used to enjoy then it is time. Losing more weight will help, as well as rimadyl from the vet. But only you know when it is time. Just do not let him live without dignity
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old January 13th, 2006, 08:16 AM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
PLEASE be careful if the meds you are using is Rimadyl...There have been MANY problem like liver damage and even death with this Med.

My first GSD was 13 when I had to put him down.He had rhumatoid arthritis.I had him on the Shark Cartlage and Glucosamine,and Bufferin(now remember,this was quite some time ago)..He was slowing down.BUT he was not in any pain.He was still eating and drinking.And I had to carry him up and down the stairs.We still went on walks.Mind you they were slowwwww,longggggg walks.But that was fine with me.

I knew it was time when we went for our walk and he let out a LOUD yelp and he was limping very bad.So I carried him home and called the vet.Well off to the vets we went.I knew right there and then it was time.And didn't want to believe it,but I couldn't let him suffer.He was in MAJOR pain...It was the hardest thing I had to do.But I knew he was better off.

I can't believe your dog weighed that much.I am so glad he has gotten his weight down.

BUT,his weight is playing a major factor to his health.And unfortunately that's not good.He needs to loose more weight....Do you have a pic of him you can post?

What you can do is try him on either Sashas Blend or K9 MX.

My current GSD has arthritis.But he has been doing great since he has been on K9 MX

Also,maybe you can get a ramp for him in regards to the stairs.They make them for dogs.

Also,PLEASE read up on the Rimadyl...That if this is what your boy is on.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old January 13th, 2006, 09:00 AM
Rottielover Rottielover is offline
Rottie owner and lover
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,799
she does not have a dog on rimadyl, it was only a suggestion for short term while she decides on what to do. I work in the pharma field, I do read up on meds before my dog gets any use. Harley was on this drug short term, and that is all I will allow. Every med has neg aspects to it. Unless natural. Major factor is weight
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old January 13th, 2006, 09:49 AM
Beaglemom's Avatar
Beaglemom Beaglemom is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 865
Like has already been stated, NSAIDs have long term side effects. They are great to be used in the meantime to help relieve the pain, but not long term. I also agree that you still need to bring his weight down some more. With an arthritic dog, you are better off having him at the ideal weight or just slightly under than over. Any excess weight will agravate his joints and cause tremendous pain and loss of mobility.

Rimadyl is not the only NSAID on the market. My dog has arthritis and she was on Metacam for a little while. I took her off it and put her on Sasha's Blend which has been working great for her. She hasn't had to take any other form of pain killers.

Mona, that ramp idea is great! They do help a great deal with a dog that is too heavy to pick up to put in cars or carry up the stairs.

Also, make sure his bed is very comfortable and supportive and in a draft free place.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old January 13th, 2006, 10:34 AM
Prin Prin is offline
Senior member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,492
For me, it's all about the happiness. Even if he's stiff and sore, if he's happy and smiles, he's ok. When his bad times not only outweigh the good but out-score them too, then it's time. Like a few minutes of elation in a day of blah is ok but a few minutes of energy in a day of misery is too far. Does that make sense?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old January 13th, 2006, 10:59 AM
Shaykeija's Avatar
Shaykeija Shaykeija is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,585
When Akeija got older and she started to stiffen up, I put her on asprin for arthritis. When that no longer worked I used medicam. Worked like a charm. She was slow getting up, but once she go going she was OK.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old January 14th, 2006, 09:42 PM
mona_b's Avatar
mona_b mona_b is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
Posts: 4,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottielover
she does not have a dog on rimadyl,
This is why I said "IF".........

And since it was not mentioned about the "short term" use,this is why I suggested she read up on it............


Beaglemom,the ramp is a huge help.This is what a co-worker picked up for her Samoyed,Trader.
__________________
"A dog can express more with his tail in minutes than his owner can express with his tongue in hours."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old January 29th, 2006, 01:29 AM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
Puppy is on Rimadyl, Ihad no idea about the side effects. Should i ask the vet to change his meds? Thank you for the heads up on that!
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old January 29th, 2006, 04:41 AM
mastifflover's Avatar
mastifflover mastifflover is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,007
Can I make another suggestion in conjunction with the Glucosamine and Condriton and shark cartlidge add 500 mg of Ester Vitamin C (must be Ester) this works with the as an anti-inflamatory I know a few Mastiff owners that use this combination with their dogs who have HD and they say it really helps. The ramp is a great idea also if you can get a piece of memory foam for him to lie on and sleep it will help too.
__________________
Robin
A dog has so many friends because they wag their tails not their tongues.
R.I.P. Buddy 2002-2008 The best Mastiff ever.
Now owned by Clark the Crazy American Bulldog
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old January 29th, 2006, 08:08 AM
shannon1233A's Avatar
shannon1233A shannon1233A is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Elora
Posts: 416
Shannon's Meds for Arthritis

My GSD is 10 yrs old, overweight (105 lbs) as well and has Arthritis. My vet put Shannon on a human arthritic pill called Meloxicam. They are 7.5mg, and she only gets 1/2 a tablet daily, or every second day. There can be side effects, such as internal bleeding with overuse, but they are side effects you can observe right away. You can also give this medication intermittently, if their arthritis isn't as bad, and only when really seems to be bothering them. She is also on the Green Bean Diet and Eagle Pack Anchovie & Fish.

This medication has helped a great deal, she's a different doggy when she's gotten her 1/2 pill, back to chasing her ball, and trotting gleefully in play. When she doesn't get it, she has trouble walking. I'd never give my dogs human medication without a vet's guidance, and we do blood tests regularly and keep a close eye on her while on these meds.

They are much cheaper than the canine meds, only $15.00 for 30 tablets or 60 days worth if given every day. Maybe you could ask your vet about whether this med would be beneficial to your doggy

Good luck
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old January 29th, 2006, 11:40 AM
Cool Surfer's Avatar
Cool Surfer Cool Surfer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 57
There comes a point, when you start wondering
am I increasing the poor fellows misery ?

Well then just go on a, despite these thoughts.

The worst thing that can happen to u is guilt

When this debilitating state comes, they usually wont survive
for a long time. So might as well do your best.
Relieve the pain. You have to decide what is beneficial to
the patient at that point. Or ask your friend, who understands your feelings.

eg: usually in terminally sick pets, they maybe on IV fluids,
but then theyoften go into cardiac failure. So that is the time to
ask the doctor to intervene and ask if giving fluids is beneficial
or rather detrimental.

I know it is difficult to decide about euthanasia.
__________________
From inability to be let alone; from too much zeal for the new and contempt for what is old; from putting knowledge before wisdom, science before art, and cleverness before common sense; from treating patients as cases, and from making the cure of the disease more grievous than the endurance of the same, Good Lord, deliver us.

Michael Swash, The London Hospital, London E1 1BB
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old June 20th, 2006, 06:24 AM
wheelerem wheelerem is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 5
Mona B could you tell me what sashas blend and K9 MX is and where you can purchase it, I have a rottie with the hip dysplacia and is not over weight as his breed being a german rottie is usually a large dog, my dog weighed about 170lbs till the hips started getting really bad, now his hips are thinning and his chest is bigger as he is using the front of his body to pull himself up. He's not in pain that I can see, but if it ever gets to the point were he is in to much pain that I can't take away for him I would put him down, he also is only 6 years old. But as a vet once told me animals are lucky, they can be put out of there pain and die with dignity were humans must live with the pain and suffering and lossing there dignity.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old June 20th, 2006, 06:39 AM
Esaunders's Avatar
Esaunders Esaunders is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario
Posts: 247
You might try a Hyaluronic Acid supplement, I've seen much better results with it than the standard joint supplements.

I used to use it on my horse and could see a difference in days, not weeks. I've also heard good reports from people using it on their dogs too.

The one I used, I used to get from www.hyaluronex.com I tried about 3 different brands and I saw the most effect with this one. Fabulous stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old June 20th, 2006, 07:46 AM
wheelerem wheelerem is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 5
Do you know what the does was for say a 170lb dog?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old June 20th, 2006, 08:05 AM
dtbmnec's Avatar
dtbmnec dtbmnec is offline
The demons' servant
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottielover
My way of thinking is way of life... If he can not enjoy 2 out of the 3 things that he used to enjoy then it is time. (...) But only you know when it is time. Just do not let him live without dignity
That would definately be a huge factor in my decision.

The other factor for me to euthanize any pet would be if the cost was worth it. For example: Say a cat needs $2000 in medical care. If it was like 5 years old and had most of its life ahead and it had a good chance of having the 2/3 things to enjoy then yeah I'd do the procedure. If it was a 17 year old cat and its immune system was weak etc. or has other issues that wouldn't allow a decent quality of life then I would put the cat to sleep.

I mean sure it would depend on every situation and all that (I mean if I became the next Bill Gates and $2000 bucks was nothing for me and the 17 year old cat was going to HAVE a decent life afterwards, sure I'd do the procedure) but for me quality of life, the kind of the life the animal was going to have afterwards and my pocketbook are all factors. (I'm probably not coming off real clearly but I hope you guys get the gist of what I'm saying...)

I guess you just have to figure out what you think is worth it and if you can afford it.

Good luck with your pets . I know you guys will make the right decisions

Megan
__________________
My cute little demons:
Leo - male, kitten, April 15th 2006
Pawz - male, kitten, April 5nd 2006
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old June 20th, 2006, 08:17 AM
chico2's Avatar
chico2 chico2 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 26,591
Erykah,I can only look at it from my own personal experience.
I have osteo-arthritis,I am really sore and stiff in the morning,but as the day goes on,I am fine and I am very active,the best remedy(for people!)
Weight is probably Puppys biggest issue,very hard on the joints.
If he eats,drinks and seems to enjoy life in general,I see no reason to end his life yet.
When meds don't help and every day is a day of pain and misery,he'll let you know..
__________________
"The cruelest animal is the Human animal"
3 kitties,Rocky(r.i.p my boy),Chico,Vinnie
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old June 20th, 2006, 10:20 AM
OntarioGreys's Avatar
OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock, ON
Posts: 1,696
Quote:
Originally Posted by erykah1310
Puppy is on Rimadyl, Ihad no idea about the side effects. Should i ask the vet to change his meds? Thank you for the heads up on that!
I know there is a lot of warnings on the internet against the use of rimadyl but they come from people you had dog that were sensitive to the drugs it may be totally fine for your dog even with longterm use, it is a matter of getting the right info. I know one of the owners whose filed the class action suit against pfizer after her dog died, but I also know an owner whose dog died due to the lepto vaccine, I have not stopped the vaccine for my dogs and would not outright not use rimadyl either.

A lot of dogs are on rimadyl for arthritis relief long term and painfree and happy, for some rimadryl adds years of quality life for them, for many it would have meant an early death without, it does not mean it will destroy every dogs liver, but some do develop liver problems(one out of 5,000 dogs), it is important to do bloodwork to ensure that liver values are remaining okay, even metacam has severe side effect in some dogs
If the med rimadyl(Carprofen) is helping it is a good idea to do bloodwork at about 3 to 4 weeks after starting, that will help to determine whether it is safe for your dog to be on longterm, here is some of the info on regarding the liver

Quote:
The Hepatopathy Side Effect (usually occurs within the first 3 weeks of use)
A carprofen reaction that has received special attention is hepatopathy, a type of liver disease. Symptoms include nausea, appetite loss, and/or diarrhea as well as marked elevations (3-4 times higher than the normal range) in liver enzymes measured in the blood.

Dogs with this syndrome show improvement with support 5 - 10 days after discontinuing carprofen. It is important that carprofen be discontinued and the patient evaluated in the event of upset stomach signs in case of this syndrome. Even though this is a rare syndrome (one in 5000), it can become life-threatening if ignored. Appetite loss or other intestinal signs do not necessarily indicate a hepatopathy but since they might, it is important not to ignore these signs should they occur. There is no way to predict which dogs will experience this side effect
Results of a 2 month study on dog that are suffering from arthritits, that says there was no increased problems with dogs taking rimadyl longer in fact they had better appetites than the dogs that were recieving placebos instead

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...rnalCode=javma


It is important to learn the side effects of any drugs you are giving, and contact the vet in the event there are problems, If you did not get a drug insert you can usually find the side effects of drugs online


This site I use fairly often from checking out the side effects of veterinary drugs http://www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html


Just providing some other info, as often not even suggested may or may not be within your means, but sometimes may not be as bad as you think, calculate the cost of the drugs you are using and what the cost would be if your dog lives 4 to 6 years understand even with the drug the dog will still experience pain especially as the meds are wearing off.

A total hip replacement for a dog runs about $3.500 to 4000 if one side only which the majority of dogs are bad only on one side compared to $50,000 for a human, though surgeon won't operate on a dog that is obese, most dogs will be up and standing the day of surgery, there is about 6 to 10 weeks of recovery afterward, the stitches are removed 10 to 14 days after surgery, with 4 to 6 weeks strict confinement with potty breaks only and 2 to 4 weeks of leash walks only, afterward should have normal full use again being able to run and play plus be painfree. This is not a surgery your own vet would do, they would have to have to refer you to an orthopedic surgeon.

I took nsaids for 4 years due to a back injury, I had no liver or kidney problems as a result , the side effects in humans is basically the same as with dogs, other people would have had problems even taking for a month, because their bodies are unable to handle, until they are tried on it there is now way to know.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old June 20th, 2006, 11:30 AM
jawert1 jawert1 is offline
PeachesnSimon'sMamma
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 1,362
Anecdotally, my late beagle Max (RIP babe) was on Rimadyl for 6 years and never had any issues. He passed at the ripe old age of 16, but not from any ill effects of his meds. As Ontario said, diff. meds do diff. things to diff. dogs but it wouldn't stop me from using Rimadyl if either Simon or Peach needed it to maintain their quality of life.
__________________
"Make the most of yourself, for that is all there is of you"
Ralph Waldo Emerson

~Those who KNOW better are responsible to TEACH better~


Jenn, Simon and Peaches
12/14/03
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old June 21st, 2006, 10:21 AM
BernerLver's Avatar
BernerLver BernerLver is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 192
Just thought I could add $0.02 as I have an older large breed dog. My vet suggested a supplement call 'Celedrin' that I purchase at our local health food store. It's very affordable ($23.00 for 90 capsules) and works better than G/C. It has made a world of difference.

Dart has problems in his hind end. It's very weak and his legs are so thin and frail compared to his front. The vet and I are not sure what the cause is but I assume neglect, not enough exercise and being overweight.

Anyway, when we first brought him home he could hardly get up and walking around the block was a chore. Now, 4 months later, he's like a new dog. He will never have the muscle tone etc. that he should in his back legs and he is slow to climb stairs but he no longer yelps in pain and has much more energy.

I only give him 1 capsule/day and up that to 2 when the weather is damp and rainy.

Hope this helps.
__________________
My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old June 21st, 2006, 04:35 PM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
Thanks for the info everyone, I must say that as Puppy is now , its gonna be a while till i have to put him down. The Rimadyl and his G/C and milk thistle routine is working wonders.
Hes never going to be able to run like the other 2 dogs but thats alright by him( doesnt even seem to understand why they would do such a thing as chase stuff i throw lol) His walks are ssssllllllloooowwwwlllllllyyyyy increasing in speed and distance. He lets me know when he wants to take a break, he moves over to the ditch and sits down, so i sit with him and give him belly rubs and cuddles, after about 5 minutes or so of this he is ready to go home. He just gets up and heads back towards the house. Im sure the neighbours driving by must think im OFF MY ROCKER, chilling in a ditch with the dog, but i really dont care, some people will never understand. When its Puppys walks its just me and him. The other dogs seem to understand why and they dont object at all, they know that once i get back its going to be some fast paced high energy frisbee time. My dogs are the BEST ever! ( You know how it goes... no dog could compare to yours)
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old June 21st, 2006, 07:54 PM
OntarioGreys's Avatar
OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock, ON
Posts: 1,696
Quote:
The Rimadyl and his G/C and milk thistle routine is working wonders.
Did your vet suggest the milk thistle? If so, great vet, many do not no the benefits of
It helps to protect and heal the liver from drugs, it is often used with humans undergoing chemo.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old June 21st, 2006, 10:13 PM
Esaunders's Avatar
Esaunders Esaunders is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario
Posts: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelerem
Do you know what the does was for say a 170lb dog?
Lets see, the loading dose was 2 oz/day and maintenance was 1 oz/ for the horse.

1/2 oz loading and 1/4 oz maintenance daily would probably be fine. So, a 1 month supply would last between 2-4 months.

I can send you a link to a HUGE discussion of oral HA use in horses, humans, dogs and cats if you like.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old June 22nd, 2006, 07:00 AM
chico2's Avatar
chico2 chico2 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 26,591
Erykah,great news...here's to Puppy
__________________
"The cruelest animal is the Human animal"
3 kitties,Rocky(r.i.p my boy),Chico,Vinnie
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old June 27th, 2006, 07:51 AM
wheelerem wheelerem is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 5
Esaunders could you please post the link thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old June 29th, 2006, 12:07 PM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
Quote:
Did your vet suggest the milk thistle? If so, great vet, many do not no the benefits of
It helps to protect and heal the liver from drugs, it is often used with humans undergoing chemo
Nope, I was informed about it on here. Im soooooo happy that i found this site otherwise poor ol Puppy would end up with liver damage!
Thanks to pets.ca, hes a little safer from his meds!
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old June 29th, 2006, 12:19 PM
Esaunders's Avatar
Esaunders Esaunders is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: GTA, Ontario
Posts: 247
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...light=lubrisyn

Here's the link. It covers a few products, the Hyaluronex that I mentioned is equal to or better than Lubrisyn in my experience. There's about 22 pages of reading.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:54 PM.