Cesar Milan vs Brad Pattison

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by totallyhip

I can't stand Brad Pattison. He uses very old school training techniques and is being investigated by the SPCA for hanging a dog by a choke collar on a tree

I enjoy watching Cesar and I think he is a very good handler with the dogs. But when it comes to tv shows (both Brad & Cesar) there is alot of editing going on and the scenes that you don't see behind the cameras. I also don't agree with some of the tools Cesar uses (prong & shock collars, electric fences) but that just me.

I have never seen him using the shock collar except in one episode he used a vibration collar. The prong collar is not so horrible if you know how to use it properly. Though I do not use this type of collar on my dogs, I do take the liberty to personally try on collars to see what they feel like. The prong is really not as horrible as they appear. The pressure is even throughout. Knowing this and also knowing how this collar is used is now less offensive to me.

I had no idea that the other 'trainer' was investigated for a hanging...

[totallyhip]

Originally Posted by BenMax

I had no idea that the other 'trainer' was investigated for a hanging...

Yes and actually so is Cesar. The American Humane Society had a write up on their site a while ago about it. Its gone now however but this article talks about the lawsuit.


http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/...hisperer_x.htm

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by totallyhip

Yes and actually so is Cesar. The American Humane Society had a write up on their site a while ago about it. Its gone now however but this article talks about the lawsuit.


http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/...hisperer_x.htm

In Caeser cases he usually deals with aggressive behaviours. Brad is a complete write-off!

But what I have noticed, is that there are many trainers and organizations that do not support Ceaser's methods...in all honesty I think the reason is that they 'missed the boat'.

Nevertheless, interesting..thank you.

[totallyhip]

Yes alot of trainers don't support his methods. I think that is pretty subjective just like anything else out there. Different opinions and perspectives and its up to people to judge for themselves what is right and what works for them

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by totallyhip

Yes alot of trainers don't support his methods. I think that is pretty subjective just like anything else out there. Different opinions and perspectives and its up to people to judge for themselves what is right and what works for them

I totally agree with you.

[totallyhip]

I should add "Also using Common sense too"!!!!

[ILoveOnyx]

I think that they both have their own unique way of handling dogs. But, like what Ceasar says in the beginning of his show... "I train humans, I rehabilitate dogs"... he's not really training them to sit, heel, and roll over, he's there to get the dogs back on the right path to being calm and submissive.

Brad's ok... he needs anger management, if I was his client, I'd blow up in his face if he gave me half the attitude he gives on TV.

Anyway, I watch the Dog Whisperer almost every day when I come home from work, and I'm not complaining. Oh and you know what I think gets me hooked so much? BIG DADDY! I'm always sitting on the couch waiting for the cutie to pop out of the screen. Have you guys seen his newest addition? The blue nose pup? (I don't know his name, he didn't say) HE'S SO CUTE!

[totallyhip]

I admit I do love Big Daddy too! He is such a cutie

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by totallyhip

I should add "Also using Common sense too"!!!!

You would think wouldn't you.

[K9 Love]

On a completley personal level, I cannot stand Brad Pattison. He's extremely rude, arrogant and pushy. I understand that a lot of this is for tv, but like the man in one episode I saw said: I would punch him in the face if he came to my house and talked to me like that.

Another reason I dislike Brad that isn't really a huge reason, just a pet peeve is he's a repeater and snapper. I HATE snappers and people who repeat commands; Sit, sit, sit, sit sit.. One of our number rules in dog class is NO repeating.

I don't think Brad has any type of dog perception or talent. He knows a few things that he uses and that's about it.

Now I most definitely do not agree with everything Cesar says or does, not even close BUT I am extremely jealous of his dog reading abilities. Despite the ways he approaches training or behaviourial issues, I really believe Cesar has a knack for reading dogs. Everything about it, eyes, head set, body posture, tail posture, movement etc. He just really knows how to put it all together and explain why the particular dog is feeling or acting a particular way. I find it to be trully amazing and most of the time he ends up being right.

Also regardless of my personal opinions on his training methods, I do see results and I agree with some of his basic ideologies:

It's usually the handler/owner not the dog. MORE excercise. Being consistent with rules/correction/aversion. Treating dogs like dogs. Not feeling sorry for fearful animals or any for that matter. Being a calm, confident strong leader. All of those principals I strongly agree with. Now how he goes about dealing with some of the cases? Of course I don't, ALTHOUGH I don't think I've ever seen an episode where he rolled a dog although I've heard about it many times. I do watch his show if I see it on and it's a case I'd like to see how he handles, but I don't watch if faithfully or anything. Either way I haven't seen him roll a dog, but I'm pretty sure he has.

Cesar's done a lot of good dragging Daddy everywhere with him. He's a great representative of the breed and I'm glad not only does he not agree with BSL but he speaks openly about it on his show. Cesar also really knows how to deal with the general public, he connects and explains in a way I've NEVER seen Brad connect. He knows how to use his body, and explains with analogies people understand. Having people skills is super important when working with dogs and owners, a skill I believe Cesar has more then Brad.

He's not perfect. I don't think there's anyone in the dog world I agree with fully, but a lot of his core principals I do agree with, hence why I voted Cesar over annoying, loud mouth Brad Pattison.

[Dracko]

On a completley personal level, I cannot stand Brad Pattison. He's extremely rude, arrogant and pushy.

I agree with K9 with this. Even seeing the name of his show when I flick through the channel listings sends a feeling of disgust through me. As someone said in a few posts back, Brad needs anger management. His personal behavior cancels out any "good" he might have to offer owners of the animals.

[Dekka]

I think both are horrid.

Both use some good techniques. But those are ones that everyone uses-and are not special to them.

I don't like how Milan stresses exercise so much with out first saying that large breed pups and youngsters should NOT be running jogging etc. With out saying your dog might need to be looked at by a vet. Not all dogs SHOULD have an extreme amount of exercise.

I don't like how they shut down dogs. I don't like how they train through intimidation and threats. I don't like how the perpetuate the 'dominance' and 'pack' myths. These have been disproven so many times its not funny. BUT it 'makes sense to us humans' that it seems to be hard to get rid of. BUT just think of it this way... if all dogs just saw us as other dogs and fellow pack members/and non pack members dogs who are dog aggressive would also be human aggressive and vice versa. I don't like how they mask the behaviour and call it cured. They have simply shut down the dogs desire to tell you it is upset. Or I have watched episodes where the dog is in a state of learned helplessness. Its not in a calm submissive state.. its nearly catatonic.

But if that is what you like in a dog

I also don't like how Milan walks in and 'fix' the dog. Take Victoria Stillwell, she comes in and fixes the people dog issues, then leaves them alone to fix them. Patterson goes in and meddles with things that have nothing to do with the dog. (makes good TV but it really misleads people as to what dog training is all about)

Personally I think people should look at it like the entertainment it is. Just look at Mr Milan allowing a dog fight to happen just to get ratings... (if he is as good as some people think then it should have been obvious to him that the dog was getting stressed and was giving off lots of signals that it was going to fight. AND there was not a break stick in sight....)

[BenMax]

I don't think that Caeser is letting the dogs fight on purpose but infact shows the reality of what he is trying to teach people. Energy and presence and how it affects others around you.

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by BenMax

I don't think that Caeser is letting the dogs fight on purpose but infact shows the reality of what he is trying to teach people. Energy and presence and how it affects others around you.

So its ok to let a group of dogs fight, just so you can show people that dogs can fight?

He wasn't teaching people at that moment. He was 'showing' them how much better the dog was. Oops. He told the people not to greet their dog (who was stressed and very happy to see her people) this stressed her more. Then he said 'this could be a problem' and a few seconds later there was a fight.

He could have called his dogs over, he could have told some to down stay (assuming he can actually train them to do things, not just shut them down) he didn't HAVE to let that fight happen. But he did, then he aired it. Shows an extreme lack of judgement on two parts.

I am so happy the owners declined his offer to trade dogs (since dogs are disposable and all) and are planing on going back to what they were doing (which was working anyway)

[BenMax]

Perhaps I missed that episode.. Regardless, I think that he is doing more good then harm. No one is perfect - nope - no one. I don't think I ever said to let dogs fight....I can't find that in my comments.

[Dekka]

No no one is perfect.

BUT he does far more harm than any good.

He adovocated huge amounts of exercise. Never mentioning that dogs, like people can have issues where excessive exercise is BAD.

He trains through intimidation. He merely supresses the bad behaviour.. never fixing the root problem. (hence the issues that pop up down the road-even though they are entirely predictable, he blames the owners)

He perpetuates that dogs are out to take over your house and your life. He perpetuates all the pack nonsense that even people who study wolves say are wrong. His 'philosophy' is so full of holes you could use it as a strainer.

He tells people (in articles) that dogs don't need love and affection to lead balanced lives. Great so that is why intimidation is ok.

He seems to have no knowledge what so ever about dog body language. What he says is happening is not what the dog says is happening. He claims a dog is in a calm submissive state. But the correct term is learned helplessness. Or in more common terms shut down.

He treats dogs like the are objects. Trading them with clients if they aren't working out. He can't fix the problem but you can trade it in for a better model.

I see people in RL an on forums who need help after trying his methods. A dog just got PTS on another forum because it bit its owner after being alpha rolled numerous times. An alpha roll is a death threat. I might bite you too if you kept threatening to kill me. Poor dog, if the problem had been dealt with-instead of being 'punished out' he might still be here today.

Top trainers (who have a much higher success rate than Milan... he isn't even good enough to get published lol) and ethologists all agree that Milan has put dog training back about 20 years.

Yup thats a whole lot of good.

[BenMax]

So Dekka I take it that you are not a big fan..

[diandpat]

Originally Posted by BenMax

So Dekka I take it that you are not a big fan..

That's definitely the vibe, eh!

Dekka obviously uses different techniques as it says in their profile that they are a trainer.

I like Caesar. He makes good sense. People are ALWAYS warned NOT to try certain techniques without a professional present.

The few things I have tried with confidence with my occasionally aggressive terrier have worked fast and he doesn't seem unhappy at all.

It's like kids I guess...not everything works on every kid.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by diandpat

That's definitely the vibe, eh!

Dekka obviously uses different techniques as it says in their profile that they are a trainer.

I like Caesar. He makes good sense. People are ALWAYS warned NOT to try certain techniques without a professional present.

The few things I have tried with confidence with my occasionally aggressive terrier have worked fast and he doesn't seem unhappy at all.

It's like kids I guess...not everything works on every kid.

I am with you. I have been training dogs for years however not certified (doesn't mean a thing) however followed clinics, hung out with police dog trainers, and other trainers that I know and gone to conferences. Also, I have studied animal behaviour and a combination of all this is very valuable. As well I have made my presence available to all those that are involved in breed specific rescues to learn more about certain breeds and how to better my evaluations.

I have to tell you that you can take what works for you and leave the rest. You cannot tell me that everything he does is not worthy...heck even the worst trainers can teach you something. That's just my

[Dekka]

LOL NOT a fan.

I just get so sick at having to re educate clients who's dogs are freaked out by the 'aggressive' humans. Its pretty common when you get talking to other trainers. The only trainers I know who love him are the e collar trainers. But then they can't read dog language either.

No not all techiniques work with all dogs. But methods do. There are different ways of applying things. But the basic principle is the same. Shutting down dogs looks good for TV. But its like one of my favorite quotes about his show:

You can put a bandaid over a bullet wound on TV and call it a miracle. Doesn't seem to matter that the patient is just as dead.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Dekka

LOL NOT a fan.

I just get so sick at having to re educate clients who's dogs are freaked out by the 'aggressive' humans. Its pretty common when you get talking to other trainers. The only trainers I know who love him are the e collar trainers. But then they can't read dog language either.

No not all techiniques work with all dogs. But methods do. There are different ways of applying things. But the basic principle is the same. Shutting down dogs looks good for TV. But its like one of my favorite quotes about his show:

You can put a bandaid over a bullet wound on TV and call it a miracle. Doesn't seem to matter that the patient is just as dead.

Dekka - do you get anything positive out of it being a trainer? Great last sentance BTW!

[Dekka]

Not sure what you mean?

I love training and showing, and helping others train and show.

I love not only my walls covered in ribbons from many many venues and various dog sports, I also enjoy the connection I have with my dogs. I enjoy rehabbing dogs with some serious bite histories for the JRTRO. I love the fact that they can go on to loving homes. I enjoy watching the success of clients.

So I would say yes I do get lots out of training (if that is what you are asking)

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Not sure what you mean?

I love training and showing, and helping others train and show.

I love not only my walls covered in ribbons from many many venues and various dog sports, I also enjoy the connection I have with my dogs. I enjoy rehabbing dogs with some serious bite histories for the JRTRO. I love the fact that they can go on to loving homes. I enjoy watching the success of clients.

So I would say yes I do get lots out of training (if that is what you are asking)

No I mean as a trainer, is there anything that you can take or like about either one of these trainer's methods or idiologies? Is there anything of value for you.

[NoahGrey]

Originally Posted by Dekka

He tells people (in articles) that dogs don't need love and affection to lead balanced lives. Great so that is why intimidation is ok.

I think what he is referring how the average pet loving owner shows love and affection. By hugs, kisses, and baby talk. And he is right. in reality dogs do not need hugs, kisses and baby talk. In fact, they are not aware of what you are doing at that moment.

It is proven that dogs thrieve on working, being a member of your pack, stabablity. They want to please you..in their eyes the Alpha male.

Dogs do not care if they are hugged, kissed, etc. yes, of course they respond happy to a pat or pet on the head...a come on buddy lets go. Affection, but not going overboard. in fact, getting all mushy might make a dog wary. For, dogs do not understand.

ACO22

[Dekka]

ahh I see.

Yes. I often tell people who wish to learn about calming signals and dog body language to watch the show with the sound off. No where can you find so many examples of stressed dogs on television.

When people phone me and want me to take their dog and 'fix it' I use the Dog Whisperer show as an example of why that doesn't work. I tell them we need to fix you and the dog together. The issues that created the problem will keep on creating the problem unless those issues are resolved. I guess Patterson is kinda on that wavelength.. but then he drops the bar and goes off the deep end.

Other than as an example of how not to work your dog. No not really.

Anything they do that I DO like is common knowledge type stuff like NILIF. Making sure a dog has an 'appropriate' outlet for its mental and physical energy. (wait never seen either of them address metal stimulation before)

[BenMax]

I agree with ACO22- it's how we interpret his message. I for one never train my fosters to be 'sucky' if you will. I train them to be attentive, obediant and responsive. If the people who adopt want a sucky dog then they can do so - but I always hand over a well disciplined dog and what they do from there is their business. My own - well that's another story....yep I love her up and to be honest with you - I should really go back to basics.

[BenMax]

So Dekka you are using common sense then. I would love to converse with you further in regards to the subject to training. I always believe there is so much more to learn as I have learnt mostly from my dogs whom have assisted when training. Perhaps we can exchange dialogue at some point. I would seriously love to pick your brain but I do not want to monopolize this thread in doing so... So what do you say?

[K9 Love]

Dekka, neat to see you here. Who am I? LOL. I met you at the PADOC CARO/NAMBR match a few months ago, with Roxy.

I agree with a lot of your opinions on Cesar, but perhaps I've missed a show where he's implied dogs are conniving creatures that are constantly looking to overthrow their owners. What I've always taken from his comments on "pack leadership" as he calls it, is that if YOU DON"T take up the leadership role, it's likely the dog will. And that is something I agree with strongly. Not necessarily that dogs want that position, in fact for some reason I believe he says the opposite. That dogs would much prefer you to be in charge, just that if you don't go about the necessary steps to earn/or take that role by default, the dog will as it's only natural to them.

As for his ability to read dogs, I saw the episode your speaking about, and I'm pretty sure he knew full well that something was going to happnen. YES he should've done something, but in his somewhat defense (as I said I don't agree with everything he does wholly either) I would think that he was waiting to see what would happen. Now should he have waited considering the dogs breed and previous behaviour? Probably not, but I THINK that's what he was doing. He knew as soon as the owners came that the dog wasn't acting "appropriately" I believe the word he used was "excited energy".

I agree that often after his flooding sessions the calm submissive state is really just the opposite, similar to a horse locking up, but I don't think he's wrong in every dog reading situation.

Also I hardly think that most people would take his advice for more excercise as mile long, hard running for their dogs. On all of the shows I've seen him say this, the owners admit to only getting their dog out two or three times a week, for half hour walks on leash. I agree with most of what you've said, honestly, but I think that's nit picking. As you said no one is perfect, we all know Cesar's far from it, but you can't agree that more excericse for JRT's getting three half hour walks a week is okay?

Once again he's not my favourite, but between Cesar and Brad Pattison? I would kneel at Cesar's feet. What does that say for Brad Pattison?

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by K9 Love

Dekka, neat to see you here. Who am I? LOL. I met you at the PADOC CARO/NAMBR match a few months ago, with Roxy.

I agree with a lot of your opinions on Cesar, but perhaps I've missed a show where he's implied dogs are conniving creatures that are constantly looking to overthrow their owners. What I've always taken from his comments on "pack leadership" as he calls it, is that if YOU DON"T take up the leadership role, it's likely the dog will. And that is something I agree with strongly. Not necessarily that dogs want that position, in fact for some reason I believe he says the opposite. That dogs would much prefer you to be in charge, just that if you don't go about the necessary steps to earn/or take that role by default, the dog will as it's only natural to them.

As for his ability to read dogs, I saw the episode your speaking about, and I'm pretty sure he knew full well that something was going to happnen. YES he should've done something, but in his somewhat defense (as I said I don't agree with everything he does wholly either) I would think that he was waiting to see what would happen. Now should he have waited considering the dogs breed and previous behaviour? Probably not, but I THINK that's what he was doing. He knew as soon as the owners came that the dog wasn't acting "appropriately" I believe the word he used was "excited energy".

I agree that often after his flooding sessions the calm submissive state is really just the opposite, similar to a horse locking up, but I don't think he's wrong in every dog reading situation.

Once again he's not my favourite, but between Cesar and Brad Pattison? I would kneel at Cesar's feet. What does that say for Brad Pattison?

Oh that's funny.

I have to tell you that my speciality (for whatever reason) is dealing with dogs with aggressive behaviour (and may I add that I am a complete failure at house training...well not complete but not great either) Give me a dog with problems and I can work with it. I do take the leadership role if you will. I teach them boundries and what is acceptable and what is not. I am old school in some techniques and open to new ideas for where I am failing miserably. I adjust my methods based on understanding the breed for one and then I provide training for a dog based on his/her ability. I would never ask a dog to do something that I know is not feasible.

In saying this we use methods and techniques but we can not fix behaviour but we can alter them. I believe that Caeser does this. It is not fixing anything but it is providing the handler with 'tools' in order to reinforce a positive outcome. It is now left to the owner to continue teaching and not faultering or else we are back to square one. Anyways - that is how I see it.

[TeriM]

I actually think that both trainers have some good and some bad points as do most real life trainers as well. I do hear you on the whole alpha roll thing but I believe there is something to be said for being a "pack leader". Perhaps Caesar oversimplifies the issue but even very well respected trainers (Patricia McConnell, Suzanne Clothier) talk a lot about being a leader to your dogs so obviously it does apply.

I do believe that there are dogs that don't work with ALL positive type training. Riley is perhaps one of those (gonna get flamed here I think). He is a very confident, high energy dog who really needed to learn some self control. He is not super food motivated and toys just served (especially balls) to increase his stimulation level. There is a way to combine both the positive stuff but still use some "negative" methods and get results.