Premature Speuters?

[ScottieDog]

First, to Goldfields, my deepest condolences on your loss. It hurts.

I am sitting here with my 9 month-old pup figuring out the best age for him to be neutered. I know I am responsible so no chance at breeding. I want what is best for him. I do have an agreement with the breeder that he will be neutered. My vet told me that unless there is a health reason to do the procedure early, his clinic will not neuter until at least age 6 months.

I shared the link that mikischo posted with my vet. There are some things in that that horrify me. Most importantly, the slight increased chance of urinary cancers. My breed--Scottish Terriers--develop transitional cell carcinoma (TCC) at a rate of 18%. This is not a factor I wish to elevate. I also plan to do agility classes with my pup when he is old enough and the increased risks of cruciate ligament damage is also a factor. After much discussion, research I've decided to neuter at or slightly after one year of age. My vet is OK with this and I've shared articles with my breeder so she can understand that I want what is best for my pup, and as erykah1310 understands, her pup too.

My rescue Scottie was a genetic mess, so I may be factoring things in that should not be considered. She was spayed before 6 months of age. She was a good inch and a half taller than my unneutered male dog. Not a big deal, but these are short dogs. She had knee and elbow problems. She had recurrent UTIs, needed life-saving emergency spleen removal surgery due to splenic hemangioma, and finally TCC of the bladder. All issues the article mentions. As you can understand, I am very concerned about health issues. Again, I want to mention that my sweet rescue that I loved and adored with all my heart was probably the product of a damned puppy mill, so I know this compounded her health issues.

I will be spending several hours with the links to the articles and also listening to the pod-cast Marko has linked to. Spaying and neutering is very important in controlling the pet population and I do feel it is very important. I want to do what is best for my dog when factoring in his breed and the activities we will be doing. There is some wonderful information here.

[Longblades]

I just listened to the podcast and learned it considers early age neuter to be ages 8 to 16 weeks for cats and dogs. And usual age neuter is 5 to 6 months. Certainly that latter is earlier still than any I have heard for my breed, but be what it may, it's a frame of reference. I was all set to continue my belief that early neuter is mostly a rescue/shelter consideration till Dr. Lee said how many purebred dogs were turning up in shelters in his area. Scary. Mind you, I wonder how it is known they are purebred, are they chipped or tattooed? Still, I guess they look purebred and that is scary. Is it the same here? In the north, where, don't get upset, but our cold I think tends to limit the life of uncared for animals?

See, the problem with even the larger breeds with altering them at a later time, the chances of post op problems are SIGNIFICANTLY higher, and compared to the supposed rate of 'long term problems' in larger breed dogs, you are looking at an INSANELY higher ratio of immediate severe post op problems in large breed dogs vs. the risk of possible long term problems (does that make sense?? sorry if it doesn't please let me know if you are like WTH are you talking about haha)

Kathryn, I understand this, I think, but do you have numbers to back it up? And can you make clear what it is you mean by a "later time"? What age is "later" to you? And what are the complications and problems, please? I'd like to understand better.

[14+kitties]

I wonder how much research has been done on other contributing factors as to genetics, diet concerns, over breeding, etc. etc. With bybs, wannabe breeders who really don't know what they're doing, and millers popping up all over the world along with what has been acknowledged on this site as a p@@s poor diet for most dogs and cats since the introduction of the convenience diet of dry kibble - sometimes it makes you go mmmmmmmm.....

[TeriM]

A very interesting topic . In recent years I have become much more aware of "natural health" so this is something I am also researching for our new adddition that will join us this summer. I really believe that Riley would have benefited from a later neuter. I had him done around 7-8 months and he continued to grow until he was close to three years old. He definately does not have the best structure and although that is breeding/size I think delaying the neuter would have helped.

I have a female pup coming in August. She is a mid-size breed and most of the females in her line with raw feeding do not come into their first heat until almost 13-14 months. My plan at the moment would be wait until she is a year and hopefully beat the first heat. If not I will be able to manage a heat and I am also considering waiting until after the first heat if that is what my researching proves better. I think there are some benefits to not spaying for a few years but honestly I don't want to deal with heats unless I can be convinced there is a really good benefit.

Erykah, at what age do your girls usually come into their first heat? Can you possibly set the contracts to spay close to that time? If demand is that high for your pups I would also consider keeping at least $500 for the spay/neuter return as an incentive.

I would be happy to do a home visit for you out here (Vancouver) if that would help. I also actually video taped my home/street for my breeder so she could see where the pup would live. Luckily for me she is good friends with my trainer so my trainer vouched for me. Yes, someone could video someplace that isn't their home but then check google to see if the outer appearance of the home matches to "street view".

[TeriM]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

I wonder how much research has been done on other contributing factors as to genetics, diet concerns, over breeding, etc. etc. With bybs, wannabe breeders who really don't know what they're doing, and millers popping up all over the world along with what has been acknowledged on this site as a p@@s poor diet for most dogs and cats since the introduction of the convenience diet of dry kibble - sometimes it makes you go mmmmmmmm.....

Agreed, this is definately a part of the equation .

[Longblades]

I just found this page which provides links to several articles on paediatric neuter. Some are in my list, many are new. Unfortunately I cannot access most of the new ones but perhaps someone else can.

http://earlyspayneuter.blogspot.com/#online

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

I wonder how much research has been done on other contributing factors as to genetics, diet concerns, over breeding, etc. etc. With bybs, wannabe breeders who really don't know what they're doing, and millers popping up all over the world along with what has been acknowledged on this site as a p@@s poor diet for most dogs and cats since the introduction of the convenience diet of dry kibble - sometimes it makes you go mmmmmmmm.....

This is exactly why I want to know so much more about the beagles in that study. Very good point 14+ and those reasons listed is why I have heard of many breeders putting extremely strict restrictions and clauses into health guarantees. Not that they would not honor them, just that the new owners also play a HUGE role in development of a growing pup.
Things that are known genetic such as HD also can come about from various environmental factors as well.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Longblades

It's not clear to me what you mean by premature. There are paediatric neuters (neuter is gender neutral) and then there is pre-pubertal neuter, which is mostly what the Sanborn article linked above is concerned with.

I have articles on both in my list below. Mostly you can tell by the title which are the paediatric ones.

This is a reading list of articles and papers by Veterinarians, breed clubs, trainers and others on the pros and cons of neutering or spaying your dog that I have found helpful and very educational. Most are based on extensive Veterinary research and also provide references you can check further. If you are wrestling with the question of when or whether to neuter/spay these may help. They do not all agree and one is even a rebuttal of another. One is a link to a radio show interview. One is a link to a medical testosterone suppressant not yet available in N. America but is in the U.K. and Australia. Some are not easy reading.

I think I personally found the first two in the list to be of most help and I appreciated the non-biased way the information was presented. The list is in no particular order, articles were simply added as I discovered them. If the links are not clickable I have tried to include the name of the paper and author in case you have to search for them. I hope this helps folks out and good luck with your decision. A tip, I went to my Vet to discuss the first two articles with her.

Wow, Longblades, what an extensive list you have provided... I've barely made a scratch on it. In the past I have always been a strong supporter of neutering males preventive /corrective wrt behaviour. (Never before 5-7 months though.) Now I feel guilty, have I been taking the easy way out, day-surgery rather than more effort into training? I knew a only a couple of the risks for spaying females, but NONE of the ones for boys. This will definitely change how easily I make that decision next time it comes up!

[LavenderRott]

I would think that, since you are the owner and "breeder" of a rare breed, that you could find plenty of very good, responsible owners that were able and eager to do whatever necessary to decide to breed or not. If your dogs meet the standard and pass all genetic testing, I would think that people already involved with the breed (in a positive manner) would be contacting you about breeding. Narrowing the gene pool is never a good thing so having a bitch or stud of quality would be an asset to the breed.

As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I would think that, since you are the owner and "breeder" of a rare breed, that you could find plenty of very good, responsible owners that were able and eager to do whatever necessary to decide to breed or not.

I have read this several times and have no idea what you are trying to get at? I have looked at this from several angles and still can not wrap my head around this.
Since I have a "rare"breed somehow only the best homes would be contacting me? This makes no sense, and how would anyone think that it would? In case you have not realized over the past couple years there have been two extremely high priced TM's sold in China, thanks to media and internet emphasizing how expensive these dogs were purchased for, and subsequently this has attracted many people to the breed for no other reason other than $$$$.

If your dogs meet the standard and pass all genetic testing, I would think that people already involved with the breed (in a positive manner) would be contacting you about breeding.

No where in anything I have written have I even mentioned anything about people contacting me to breed??? Frankly, I don't feel the need to discuss much about my tentative breeding plans, but it is a toss up between 2 studs and a lot of that will depend greatly on this summer. If you want to know more, PM me, this is off topic and I see no point in you making that statement.

Narrowing the gene pool is never a good thing so having a bitch or stud of quality would be an asset to the breed.

I am talking about pet home pups I dont see where the notion of narrowing the gene pool is coming from honestly

As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

I'm quite curious if you have actually read this thread with comprehension of the point of it at all. But just to refresh:

I would like to know the pro's and cons to it as well as any risks for a young pup to go through it

.
I am stating here that I am not familiar at all with it and am looking for information on it.

We all know how registration means diddly to many people who are looking for a quick buck and I am toying with the idea of having the next litter done prior to leaving here.

Having not known anything about the procedure or any of the "cons" that went along with it until recieving many very helpful links and resources here, I was "toying" with the "idea" of doing it.

What i am looking for is facts about it and where it can be done so I may contact a vet who does it to discuss it with them as well.
I was suprised to find out that many vets do not do them

I really don't feel like going back and explaining every little thing I have typed on the subject but I just want to make it clear that I started this thread to find information, therefore not knowing about the increased risk for cancers in pups who are spayed or neutered young at the time of this thread being started and even after reading some studies, I would like to have a few answers to questions on the studies that I have. I see no harm in trying to inform myself as best as I can about something before deciding anything, and at that time what harm is there in considering anything when I am the type of person who is willing to learn and not afraid to ask opinons or questions on something I know little about?
Again, asking for information and looking to find a vet that i could discuss it with.

[SamIam]

I just thought of something. Early spay/neuters is something puppy/kitten-selling pet stores have started doing. If you have a local store that does it, you could find out what vet they use: that would be a vet who has lots of experience to share on the subject.

[erykah1310]

I have found one local vet who does them, I called and asked a few questions but I felt they had biased information. According to them there were absolutely no cons to having it done.
Then when discussing it with both my vets who do not preform the surgery they had a great deal of concerns other than cancers for their reasoning behind not offering it.

It appears to be a hot topic amoung vets, breeders, pet owners and the like.

I will continue to research it, but have been a little "turned off" the idea for various reasons the more I read. However, I'm quite interested in learning as much about it as I can to make an educated and solid descision on whether or not I agree with it.

[SamIam]

Absolutely no cons, well I guess believing that will help them sleep at night, but it wouldn't give me much confidence in them, there are always pros and cons to weigh.

The people who come back for a second pup I trust; the rest I hold my breath, despite careful screening and solid contract, will they actually have the spay/neuter done by the deadline? I considered early spay/neuters a couple years ago and could not accept the risks. Their size (more an issue with small breeds) and age make them more delicate, their immune system isn't fully developed, and they are less tolerant of many medications. It also changes their growth pattern (can add a couple inches of height and end in a less-sturdy shape - straighter joints). My contract actually has a minimum and maximum age when the surgery may be done.

[14+kitties]

I've PM'd Dr Lee about this thread. Truly, he is probably the most informed on this subject of anyone on this forum.
I believe there have been threads done before about this very subject. I also believe it was discussed then that the increased incidences of cancers discussed in most of those studies at the time was so minimal as to make it almost inconsequential. When I have more time I'll see if I can track those threads down. I know they were done a couple of years ago. Maybe things have changed since then.
When HS, vets who adopt pets from their offices (my vet is one), and the very few reliable pet stores (normally they work through HS), s/n pets before adopting they do it to aid the over burgeoned pet population. They are responsible enough to realize there is a huge problem and are doing something to help it.
We have one store in our area that has finally stopped selling kittens and designer dogs after years and years of doing so. These pets were sold intact. I hate to even consider the number of unwanted cats that were added to this area because of that one store being irresponsible.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I would think that, since you are the owner and "breeder" of a rare breed, that you could find plenty of very good, responsible owners that were able and eager to do whatever necessary to decide to breed or not. If your dogs meet the standard and pass all genetic testing, I would think that people already involved with the breed (in a positive manner) would be contacting you about breeding. Narrowing the gene pool is never a good thing so having a bitch or stud of quality would be an asset to the breed.

As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

LavenderRott, I totally get what you are saying to Erykah. When I got into ACDs 35 years ago every kennel seemed to have different bloodlines, slightly different types, in fact I could just look at a dog back then and say predominantly such and such a line, with maybe this other one as well, and be correct. Then judges started favoring one line above others, so everyone bred, and line bred, and in bred (ad nauseam) to that line, till now you are battling to find an outcross. Same thing happened with a red dog a friend sold that went interstate, he was used so often that the same thing applies up there. At least with breeding stock sold to responsible breeders, people as careful and caring about that breed as Erykah is herself, there is less danger to this rare breed. Especially if they go far afield.I really think there are two types of breeders within the show scene, those that go with the current fad because they want to win, and those that stick to the Standard religiously and have the breed's welfare at heart. They are not that hard to identify. Breeding to supply pets(and if they are desexed that is all they are) is really frowned on by our ANKC. When we become members or renew our membership we have to agree to the Code of Ethics for breeding and 20.1.12 says
A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard, and not specifically for the pet and commercial market.

As for this, LavenderRott....
As for pediatric neutering - with all of the increases in risks of cancers, why would you even consider it?

Exactly! I think there is this "It won't happen to MY dog" attitude, but it could and sometimes does.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by ScottieDog

First, to Goldfields, my deepest condolences on your loss. It hurts.

.

Thank you, it seems to get harder the older I get too for some reason .

Very interesting post and I can certainly understand you leaving it later to neuter your dog. It's not a case of what might suit one, will suit all, that's for sure.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Breeding to supply pets(and if they are desexed that is all they are) is really frowned on by our ANKC. When we become members or renew our membership we have to agree to the Code of Ethics for breeding and 20.1.12 says
A member shall breed primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and/or working ability of the breed in accordance with the breed standard, and not specifically for the pet and commercial market.

Sustainable breeding, though, only needs to replace each breeding dog. Each female could produce one daughter, and possibly also one son. But the average litter size for all breeds is greater than two, so even if each male and each female produce only one litter in their lifetimes, some of their puppies will not be bred.

Take a Tibetan Mastiff pair with a litter of 10 puppies. Let's choose the best 2 male and 2 female puppies and wait until they mature, pass health exams, and compete in conformation and performance and then choose which two will carry on their parents' bloodline. That leaves 6 who will go to pet-only homes from the age of ~2 months.

If all 10 are kept as potential breeders, then all 10 owners must be willing to tolerate heats or male behaviours, all of them must be able and willing to prevent unplanned litters, all of them must be willing to accept an 80% chance their dog will not be approved for breeding, all of them must be willing and able to become breeders and all that that implies if they are the 20% chosen.

It may be a nice dream, but it's not practical, not in this society anyway. Not to mention there would be a need for bigger show ring for the goldens! No matter how good your dogs are, the puppies will vary in temperament and conformation. You can select your future champions or at least narrow it down, and without the slightest hint of unethical intentions or actions, you have produced some pet-only dogs, and there are certainly plenty of wonderful pet-only homes that do not qualify as breeding homes. Should they be spayed/neutered at 2 months, 6 months, 18 months or never? Open for debate. But most of them should never be bred, even in a breed that is increasing in numbers/popularity.

[Goldfields]

Basically what the ANKC is asking for Sam(I think) is that we don't breed unless it is to retain something for showing or breeding, otherwise that does qualify as catering to the pet market of course. They're aware of over population too. If we go by that, there is a limit to how many dogs a breeder/exhibitor wants, so less pups get born , which is a good thing.
I have never bred a litter without I intended to keep something. I wouild definitely never breed to just sell all the pups, which is why I didn't have that many litters. This is off topic though, I want to hear more of the pros and cons of de-sexing them early . Had a visitor today but I want to go back ASAP and follow up on Longblade's links for a start. This visitor today was anxious to neuter her GSD pup early thinking it would help with his behaviour but I think she could learn a lot that would help if she read the advice on training that is offered here instead.

[SamIam]

The development of male behaviour happens primarily at sexual maturity (6-12 months) and social maturity (24-26 months). If the unwanted behaviours begin and the dog is then neutered immediately, before they become habit, the neuter should be successful towards eliminating the problem. The longer you wait, the stronger the habit becomes and the less likely you are to be able to change it with a neuter. Only the individual owner can determine if they have what it takes to control (or tolerate) behaviour problems that come up, but if they decide to wait past 6 months for his neuter, they should be prepared to make that decision quickly.

[Goldfields]

She admits herself to not praising him(or her other animals), Sam, treating the pup like a push button robot, expecting him to do exactly what she says, but no rewards, trying force rather than getting him to focus. I'm sorry but neutering does not seem like a quick fix for this dog. He's nice, he's very intelligent, he deserves a whole lot better, and she knows it, and I'll have to keep reminding her I think.

[SamIam]

The behaviours I would consider neutering a possible remedy for are indoor marking, the tendency to wander, and male-male aggression - those are the three that come to mind, I may be missing an important one or two. At this point it sounds more like your friend is dealing with basic manners and obedience, so you may just have to sneak in some demos of how you work your own dogs next time she comes by.

[Goldfields]

Well, if he wanders in this sheep area he would get shot but I doubt that will happen, she has good fences and escape proof dog yards. Sounds like he is a bit unruly at obedience, wanting to play, or fight if another dog wants that, but the only way he focusses on her, even for a reward, is to open his mouth sort of sideways for the titbit to be put in while still intently watching the distraction. No focus whatsoever. My sister will help her with the obedience aspect, and I might pass on those links on early speutering to her.

[SamIam]

How old is he?

[Goldfields]

Don't quote me on this but I think about 5 1/2 months.

[Goldfields]

5 1/2 months I think.

[Longblades]

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files...20Behavior.pdf

Goldfields, above is the link from my list of the data analysing C-BARQ that presents some shocking results on behaviours in neutered versus intact dogs. I actually got this link from this board some time ago. Anyway, you might want to show it to your friend. Some of it is very, very surprising and a lot is quite contradictory to what we've all been told before. It's very detailed and there are some striking differences when broken down into breed and gender specifics so I would advise reading more than just the summary.

Now, unfortunately, It does not seem that GSDs were one of the breeds studied. As it was a study of breeds used for service dogs of one kind or another I find this strange but I don't see any GSD stats there, so, given the variations by breed a caution to transposing results to your friend's GSD. Worth a read just for the shock value though, I think.

Here is a tidbit of fascinating information produced by this study:

SPAYED/NEUTERED DOGS ROLL IIN & EAT
FECES MORE OFTEN

It's on page 10. Who would have thought? Who would even wonder? Personally I have not had scatological concerns with my dogs so this just astounded me. I mean, who would even think to ask the question?

ETS: oops, I do see a GSD face in the Touch Sensitivity section.

[SamIam]

At 5-6 months it is an excellent time for her to consider neutering and get an understanding of what changes to expect over the next few months and how to handle them. That behaviour study seems to indicate that her best source of information is the breeder she got the dog from, and other shepherd owners, rather than just the general population.

Longblades, 2 separate surveys were done, one of those 11 breeds by kennel club members, and one online of random dog owners including 17 breeds with significant contribution (photos of the 17 on page 8). The way the graphs are presented makes some of that presentation a very hard read to know what is/isn't significant. When the bottom of the graph says .2 and the top says .7, I assume that's 20% and 70%, but what does it mean when it runs from .6 to 1.5?

Here are some points to consider:
Is touch sensitivity more common in desexed animals due to neutering, or are touch sensitive animals more likely to be desexed due to temperament testing? Are intact dogs more likely to be properly socialized and desensitized due to handling needs for show than desexed pets?

If desexed springers become more prone to fear or aggression and huskies and westies less so, can we make a generalization based upon the typical level of sumbmission and confidence within a breed? Without sex and breed broken down simultaneously I'm not comfortable accepting their findings, though.

Would the kennel-club survey be more likely to have late-done desexing including previously-bred adults versus younger in the random survey that included unregistered and mixed-breed dogs?

[Longblades]

Originally Posted by SamIam

At 5-6 months it is an excellent time for her to consider neutering and get an understanding of what changes to expect over the next few months and how to handle them. That behaviour study seems to indicate that her best source of information is the breeder she got the dog from, and other shepherd owners, rather than just the general population.

Longblades, 2 separate surveys were done, one of those 11 breeds by kennel club members, and one online of random dog owners including 17 breeds with significant contribution (photos of the 17 on page 8). The way the graphs are presented makes some of that presentation a very hard read to know what is/isn't significant. When the bottom of the graph says .2 and the top says .7, I assume that's 20% and 70%, but what does it mean when it runs from .6 to 1.5?Here are some points to consider:
Is touch sensitivity more common in desexed animals due to neutering, or are touch sensitive animals more likely to be desexed due to temperament testing? Are intact dogs more likely to be properly socialized and desensitized due to handling needs for show than desexed pets?

If desexed springers become more prone to fear or aggression and huskies and westies less so, can we make a generalization based upon the typical level of sumbmission and confidence within a breed? Without sex and breed broken down simultaneously I'm not comfortable accepting their findings, though.

Would the kennel-club survey be more likely to have late-done desexing including previously-bred adults versus younger in the random survey that included unregistered and mixed-breed dogs?

kennel club members: Sorry, where did you get that? It appears to contradict what is available on the C-BARQ site, where the idea is presented that more than just kennel club members were asked to contribute. As for the random sample, yes it does say that. I did one. It was interesting.

Graphs: Sorry again but I'm afraid I don't follow you. Which page are you on when you note this? http://www.nyx.net/~tmacfarl/STAT_TUT/mann_whi.ssi Maybe this would help. I confess, though I studied statistics years ago, I'm going to have to review this.

As for your other points, yes, we discussed some of this before when a link was posted. I think it was made clear in the study that the reasons for neutering were a question and those unwanted behaviours are not shown as a reason for neutering, at least they do not appear to be a choice. Nevertheless I agree they could have import.

My own personal query is, since neuter is often quoted to us a a magic bullet that will fix many problems perhaps some of those bad scores result from owners believing it and slacking off on the training? Conversely those owners of intact dogs, possibly believing they were in for a harder time with undesireable behaviours not only did not slack off but increased their training efforts? As C-BARQ itself says, more work needs to be done.

The main point for me is, this is a start. This is the only scientific data I can find on the subject. Much of what we rely on now is anecdotal. And I have to say, I never heard or read or was told any anecdotal information at all about poop eating having anything to do with neuter, one way or the other. That one just floors me.

[SamIam]

Page 4 Respondents: 1,552 dog owners (breed club members)
Page 8 Respondents: 3,593 dog owners (open-access to C-BARQ website)

The first graph (page 6) goes from .2 to .7 and putting the minimum at .2 instead of 0 makes the difference look more significant than it is.
Begs for food (page 7) goes from 0 to 2. What does it mean? 120% of intact females beg for food and 150% of spayed ones?
Dog-directed aggression/fear (page 8) The only way I know which breeds go with which graphs is the photos.
Owner-directed aggression (page 9) Just caution to read the numbers as an increase from 5% to 10% is less important than an increase from, say, 35% to 70%.

Originally Posted by Longblades

My own personal query is, since neuter is often quoted to us a a magic bullet that will fix many problems perhaps some of those bad scores result from owners believing it and slacking off on the training? Conversely those owners of intact dogs, possibly believing they were in for a harder time with undesireable behaviours not only did not slack off but increased their training efforts? As C-BARQ itself says, more work needs to be done.

A very valid question!

My own anecdotal accounts of poop-eating include only dogs who began the behaviour as puppies (<8 weeks), and none of them neutered at that time.

I'd like to see the journal article (I assume there is one?) or better yet, their raw data.

[Longblades]

Ah, gotcha on page 4. I missed that. Confusing I agree as the icons on their own C-Barq site appear to give categories that might not necessarily all be kennel club, or breed club members.

I found a couple of article, not sure off the top of my head if they were JAVMA or not, but I found them by googling C-BARQ. Anything I found is in my list.

Oh my, just googled JAVMA and CBARQ together and got 3 pages, though many in the list seem to be the same thing.

It sure looks like the raw data is available because some of people using it are not with the orginal group but you probably have to approach through a University or some such to get access to it.