To raw feed or not to raw feed? That is the question...

[BigDaddySco]

Hi everyone...I am getting an 8 week old berner tomorrow and have spent the better part of two weeks stressing over what I will feed him. I have been to countless sites (including this one) and have read arguments that support both sides.

I have pretty much decided that I will feed my puppy a homemade diet for the first 12 to 18 months and then switch to a high quality commercial food. However my biggest concern at the moment (which in essences sounds quite trivial) is whether or not to cook the ground meat I will be serving as part of my homemade recipe.

I figured the best way to get an answer to my conundrum was to ask those of you who have a dog (or many dogs).........what do you feed your dog?

[MegShawnMom]

Sounds like you are going to use the BARF diet,very very tough especially with a puppy.You have to get ALL the proper vitamins,protein,minerals need for strong bones and growth.You would have to have a good coach for this and strong disipline, if not try a good puppy food.They will be lots of opinions available for that.Good luck

[Lucky Rescue]

Do not cook meat. If by "ground meat" you mean hamburger, I would not use that as part of the diet. It's handled too much and can have bacteria.

Here is a good site on feeding BARF (Bones and Raw Food)

Raw Diet

[BoxerRescueMTL]

That's an awesome site, Lucky!

To answer your question, BigDaddySco, I feed my dogs a raw diet most of the time but also feed Innova Evo kibble sometimes. If you're interested in raw, I really like this yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDogCanada

and this is where I get most of my meat from, the website is actually pretty informative as well. Oh and they deliver!
http://www.poshnosh.ca

[BigDaddySco]

*LuckyRescue*

Why should I not cook the meat?

[BoxerRescueMTL]

i would just like to add that a raw diet is not more difficult with a puppy than with an adult dog. either way you have to have done your research and make sure that your dog is getting enough variety. if he is getting variety, you shouldn't have to worry about tonnes of supplements etc. it's the people who only feed their dogs chicken wings and call it a raw diet that should worry.

[BigDaddySco]

Originally Posted by BoxerRescueMTL

either way you have to have done your research and make sure that your dog is getting enough variety.

What kind of 'variety' do you serve your dog? Do you ever serve canned fish (salmon, tuna, sardines) or eggs?

[Trinitie]

Originally Posted by BigDaddySco

*LuckyRescue*

Why should I not cook the meat?

Meat, fed to dogs, should not be cooked as it takes away vital nutrients. Not to mention, in the BARF diet, bones are included as part of the feed, and cooked bones are harmful to any animal.

I know I'm not LR, but I can provide a little info for you.

I hope this helps!

[Trinitie]

Originally Posted by BigDaddySco

What kind of 'variety' do you serve your dog? Do you ever serve canned fish (salmon, tuna, sardines) or eggs?

Variety should mean:
Beef, Chicken, Lamb, Veggies, Dairy

No pork as it leads to pancrititis (sp?)

I would avoid canned fish as dogs would rather roll in it than eat it. Not to mention it's very high in fat content and can lead to packing on the poundage too quickly.

[BoxerRescueMTL]

My dogs get offal meals (liver, kidneys etc.from different meat sources) 5 times a week, they get a variety of meat/bones like beef, chicken, lamb, turkey, venison and anything else i can get a deal on. i buy bags of whole frozen mackerels and sardines (cheapest at ethnic grocery stores) and that takes care of the fish/omega part of it. they get a veggie meal here and there as well as natural yogurt, fish body oil added to their food.

[BoxerRescueMTL]

and canned fish is not raw..

[Trinitie]

Originally Posted by BoxerRescueMTL

and canned fish is not raw..

A good point! It would sure taste horrible with Mayo if it were!

[BoxerRescueMTL]

A good point! It would sure taste horrible with Mayo if it were!

LOL! Nasty, Trinitie, hahaha.

[BigDaddySco]

In reality I am not really going to be following the BARF diet but more a hybrid which will include (but is not limited to): ground beef, chicken, liver, etc (raw or cooked - undecided), eggs (raw or cooked - undecided), egg shells (powdered), fish (fresh or canned - undecided), ground flax seed, pureed veggies, yogurt, and a supplement powder supplied by my breeder (contents undetermined - i will ask tomorrow).

This is a diet that has been suggested by my breeder and my question is more oriented on the 'undecided' factors - meat (raw or not), eggs (raw or not), fish (fresh or canned). My breeder has said that they cook their meat but that I could just as well use raw...... i want the opinions of others before i make my decision.

[BoxerRescueMTL]

cool, in that case i would go for anything as raw and as fresh as possible. cooking kills the vitamins/nutrients, and fresh is certainly better than canned, right?

[Prin]

I thought about giving the raw diet but doing the math, it was way too expensive. Following raw diet recommendations I was going to have to feed a total of 1.7kg of meat/day for my two big doggies. KA-CHING!!!

[luvmybeagles]

I am very confused. Perhaps I'm just naive.

I've never heard of anyone deliberately feeding their pets raw meat before. Is that even safe?

I have over 20 years of restaurant experience under my belt, and have had several courses in food safety. They emphasize over and over and over again the dangers of serving under-cooked meats or eggs to people. Isn't it just as dangerous to feed under-cooked (or raw!) foods to our pets?

Eggs may contain salmonella amongst other things. Even the exterior of the shells can be contaminated if they weren't washed well. (From the chickens feces coming in contact with the egg after laying).

Beef can contain various types of staph bacterium as well as E.coli. Pork can actually contain a parasite (trichinosis) that will live in the host animal and can kill if left untreated.

I'm not sure what if anything lamb carries.

But the potential for food bourne illness (food poisoning) is extremly high if these foods are not cooked to the proper temperature to kill the living bacteria within the foods.

So I wonder why it's safe to feed these foods uncooked to our pets when it isn't safe for people. Do animals have a higher tolerance for these bacterium than people do? I know dogs can get food poisoning, I had one get it once.

(But I also know that wolves in the wild eat raw stuff all the time and they do fine).

[Safyre]

I feed my dog commercial dog food.
My vet recommends agsint the BARF diet, and I will admit, it was not something I ever even considered doing.
The experience I have had with the BARF diet is as follows;
I have a purebred dog, and have met many breeders, and thier dogs, of this type (Toller). All the dogs are palyful, hyper, great lil family dogs.
The breeder that I havem et who feeds the BARF diet, thier dogs are more aggressive, standoffish, and typically do not do well around other animals. Even though they are the same breed.
I cannot prove that the BARF diet is doing that to the dogs, it may be that they are handling thier dogs differently. But, thats my experience. Food for thought

[MegShawnMom]

I was trying to point out that with a puppy and the constant weight change you would have to recalcualate the %portions of each food group.Even using carrots you would have to be very precise on the amount.Yes, you would be foolish to use only raw chicken wings,again its not the item but the weight/portions to ensure a proper balance.Commercial dog food meets all those requirements.
The dogs stomach can hand the raw meat better than we can,I would always freeze the meats and feed them frozen to ensure killing any bacteria.
Overall I would not go back to BARF unless it became a health/allergy/reaction problem to commerical food

[BoxerRescueMTL]

Here's some reading material. I don't want to turn this into a "raw" debate, but if you'd like to educate yourselves on this topic, check out these sites:

http://raw-dogs.com/ -this site is by one Pets.ca member, Carina, who actually wrote a book on raw feeding.

http://www.rawlearning.com -a great site to answer all your basic questions.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com

I'm not saying everyone should feed raw or anything like that. Everyone should stick to what they are happy with and what is best for their own dogs. Thousands of people feed their dogs a raw, natural diet. I have a vet who totally agrees with the raw diet and my own dogs are the picture of health-in body and mind. There is absolutely zero evidence that a raw diet makes dogs "aggressive" "standoffish" etc. and to assume that is what is making them that way is really short sighted. JMHO.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Safyre

I feed my dog commercial dog food.
My vet recommends agsint the BARF diet, and I will admit, it was not something I ever even considered doing.
The experience I have had with the BARF diet is as follows;
I have a purebred dog, and have met many breeders, and thier dogs, of this type (Toller). All the dogs are palyful, hyper, great lil family dogs.
The breeder that I havem et who feeds the BARF diet, thier dogs are more aggressive, standoffish, and typically do not do well around other animals. Even though they are the same breed.
I cannot prove that the BARF diet is doing that to the dogs, it may be that they are handling thier dogs differently. But, thats my experience. Food for thought

Most vets have about a semester of nutritional training in vet school. I am sure that if I asked my vet what to feed my dogs - he would recommend the dog food that he sells in his waiting room. Not something that I would ever bring into my house.

I fed my girls raw for over a year before I had to switch back to kibble for reasons I won't go into. I promise you, it had nothing to do with the health or behavior of my dogs. My senior girl lost the weight she needed to lose to get back to a healthy weight, she had much more energy, her coat looked better and her joints were not so painful in the winter.

Feeding raw does not cause your dog to be aggressive. If the aforementioned breeder kenneled his/her dogs without as much human interaction that the family house dog would have - THIS would cause the dogs to be stand-offish and even aggressive. Not the diet they were on.

[Natasa]

Both my dogs are on raw and I’m in the process of trying to switch Monster the ferret on raw. So far its not working that great so I might just give up on her.
I’ve been feeding raw for 5 years now, both my dogs were on it since 2-3 months old and there is no way I would ever feed commercial food again. My animals get pretty much everything except pork (one of them can’t digest it and vomits)….chicken, turkey, beef, lamb, venison, buffalo, tripe and any other meat / offal I can get my hands on (bone included). Same goes with fruit and veggie, with few exceptions which can be toxic to them. Also egg, yogurt, cottage cheese etc sometimes. Variety is important.

If you are thinking of feeding raw, please do not cook meat or veggies. It defeats the whole purpose of raw (NOT cooked) as many enzymes and vitamins are destroyed and protein greatly altered in the cooking process. Not to mention that cooked bones are dangerous for dogs and growing puppy needs calcium.
Feeding raw meat will not cause them to be aggressive or in any way alter their temperament.
Vets have very little knowledge on nutrition, unless they choose to educate themselves beyond what they learned in school (very little) or what company reps tell them.

[Lucky Rescue]

My vet recommends agsint the BARF diet

I'm not surprised. His shelves are probably loaded with Eukanuba and Science Diet, no?

Dogs have been eating raw food since they first appeared on the planet, and it seems to have worked for them. It still works for all the wild canids of the world. While they are not as purely carnivorous as cats, but are still on the carnivorous side of omnivorous.

Eating raw food makes a dog stand-offish? What is the connection here? How would it do that?

As Sandi says, it's more likely improper handling or bad breeding would make dogs aggressive.

[raingirl]

luvmybeagles, dogs stomachs are made to digest raw food, so they don't have the same problems with food poisoning. They don't get ill from salmonella, or ecoli etc.

[Prin]

YES dogs CAN get salmonella and E coli. E coli can be fatal in dogs with an underlying virus or to puppies. Salmonella causes almost an identical reaction in dogs as in humans. The thing people don't realize is that not ALL chicken and beef is infected with these two harmful bacteria. I think the last stats in Canada say about 1/3 of the poultry here has salmonella and even less for eggs. So chances are, if your dog doesn't get salmonella at least once, it's luck. Animals in the wild don't have the traditional bacteria, but they have their own. Yes wolves eat raw meat, but so did humans. The difference is that wolves don't have a choice to cook it or not and they also don't know the science behind cooking. You don't know how many wolves have severe diarrhea RIGHT NOW as a result of eating some sort of infected raw meat. Just because they eat raw diets in the wild doesn't mean they CHOSE it over something else. They just eat to survive and eat what they find. They evolved as carnivores and what they find happens to be raw. I wouldn't see a wolf pass up a steak that has been cooked if he happens to pass one.

Yes there are more nutrients in raw, but it is not all safe. And I seriously don't believe that dogs are less sensitive immune-wise than humans. Yes your dog can eat some unmentionable stuff off the sidewalk but he does get sick from it. And I don't know about you all but my dogs CERTAINLY throw up way more often than I do and get sick way more often than I do. They are also around less conspecifics. I see how many people every day and how many dogs do my dogs see? Maybe they are not sick simply because they are not exposed to enough bacteria and viral pathogens, not because they are stronger.

I feed my dogs the best food I can afford. And yes, there may be some protein in it that got killed by the cooking, that is why some of the better foods are cooked at lower temperatures and why they make Sea Weed Meal to go with your food.

Honestly, and I know I may offend people, but I feel that raw is a fad (like vegetarianism was about 3 years ago- not to say that there aren't real veggies out there-but it was cool for a while and people did it unprepared and for the wrong reasons). The problem is, when raw dogs get diarrhea, what are the odds that the human will say, "It must be the food"? Chances are he'll say "I've been feeding him this food for so long, without any troubles, it must be something else", even if there is a ton of day to day variation in different meats.

That's all I have for now. I hope I didn't offend anybody, but sometimes it is easier for people to prove a point by leaving the science out, and that's where I come in...

[Lucky Rescue]

Processed dog food - canned or dry - is a very recent invention which appeared around WW1 (not sure exactly when). Until it came about dogs ate whatever was available. Dogs are opportunistic feeders, carnivores and scavengers who will eat anything that is edible. They are constructed to run down, overpower, kill and eat other animals. Their powerful jaws, speed, endurance, and sharp teeth did not evolve for them to feed on kibble.

Since they are scavengers, no - a wolf wouldn't turn away from a cooked steak, but also wouldn't turn away from a cheese sandwich. Doesn't mean cheese sandwiches are a good diet for dog or wolf.

For dogs to eat raw food can hardly be considered a "fad" since they have been doing it since the dawn of the dog.

ALL wild cats eat meat only (nothing else) and they were doing very well on this diet until humans decided to exterminate them.

Yes dogs can get sick from eating bad meat, but I'm sure way more of them having all kinds of problems from eating cheap kibble like Purina - a very popular food thanks to misleading media blitz put out by the company.

All that being said, I don't feed raw, basically because I'm too damn lazy!

[heeler's rock!]

I feed my border Mountain Dog Food, which is a pre-packaged raw food. It comes in either Chicken, Beef, or Turkey varienties and it is THE BEST thing I have ever done for her. It comes complete with veggies and fruits, and the bone in. I add a few vitamins and such, but not all the time and she's been doing just great. Dogs are succeptable to E.Coli and salmonella, but rarely get it because their digestive tracts are waaaaaaaaaay shorter than people's, so they don;t take as long to digest raw food, thus having less of a chance to get these things. The only times I've heard of dogs getting e.coli or salmonella from raw is when it's mixed with kibble. Kibble takes a lot longer for dogs to digest, therefore trapping the raw food in with it. That's why most people advocating raw tell you to fast your dog for a minimum of 12 hours before switching.

As for raw causing agression, complete hogwash. My in-law's malamute has been on kibble his whole life, and he is prone to killing small animals, and he is very inter dog agressive. My border collie is the sweetest and most gentle dog with all living things. It depends how a dog is first bred, and mals generally have strong prey drives that is bred into them. Border collies are not bred to be as agressive with animals.

[jjgeonerd]

Something else to consider about the BARF diets is that all of that meat is at some point handled and processed. By it's nature this handling increases the risk of contamination by some sort of disease, be it E.Coli, Salmonella, whatever. BTW, ground beef is probably at the highest risk for contamination.

Wild animals eat meat that hasn't been processed, preferrably just killed. I know...wild dogs and wolves eat whatever they find...yes, and a lot of them are malnourished and disease ridden. They eat what is available.

I'm not saying a person should or shouldn't do BARF. I'm personally not comfortable with it, but that's just my choice (and I'm lazy like Lucky ). I'm just mentioning this as something to be considered when weighing the options. Just because it's human grade doesn't mean it is disease free. I have personally had salmonella, and it wasn't any fun!

[Safyre]

I didn't say that the BARF diet was the reason that the dogs were very different from the other breeders I have found, i said it is a possibility.
Think about it this way: You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?

Again, I never even considered feeding my dog a BARF diet. This is the first dog I have ever had, and took the breeders suggestions on what to feed the dog.

I asked my Vet when I was in there what a BARF diet was, becasue I didn't know. He then explained it to me, but he stated that he will support anyone that chooses to do it, but doesn't see that it is that much better than the commercial foods. I don't buy any foods from my vets office, I had talked to him about foods before getting Justice, and told him which brand I would be getting her. I have it sent down from another city.
I asked tons of questions of everyone. No one had told me about the BARF diet, untill i was looking up other Toller breeders online, and found one near me saying that they fed the BARF diet and do not let sell thier pups to anyone unless they argree to feed BARf. Thats what got me looking into it.

I don't know if thats what makes thier dogs have undesirable characteristics.. as I said, it could be apart of it. I was just sharing my experience, which is really all you can do.

[jjgeonerd]

I didn't say that the BARF diet was the reason that the dogs were very different from the other breeders I have found, i said it is a possibility.
Think about it this way: You are advised not to feed a snake live food, because it helps build the prey drive. Would that not then be the same idea in dogs? Feeding them raw meet MAY make them more aggressive?

I would think the difference is raw vs. live. The BARF diet doesn't require the dog to hunt and kill its meal, its just raw; whereas the snake has to hunt and kill its dinner, thus developing the prey drive.