English Bulldog-like temperament

[Pugalicious]

Hello again all!

Sorry to start such an inflammatory thread and then disappear, but my health has been a bit off recently, and I've been in and out of the hospital.

Things seem to be looking up now though.

I have yet to choose a dog b/c of my health issues (waiting till I get the all clear).

Regardless of what dog I choose, I think this is a great debate and would like to continue it as soon as I'm feeling more with it.

Just to throw in my two cents for the moment: although I fully accept that dog temperaments will vary (sometimes widely) across individual animals, I will again state that I think generalizations can be made about breed temperaments and that these generalizations can be used when determining what type of dog might suit your needs. I offer this as proof. This very site states that each breed has general temperament characteristics. If this site, as well as many other sites and numerous books state there are certain personality characteristics shared by dogs of the same breed, why can't I use them as a starting point in selecting a dog? Yes I might end up with a dog that doesn't conform to the profile at all (especially with improper training), but it is more likely than not to be similar to all those other thousands of dogs that these breed profiles have been formulated upon.

For the most part I agree with Brecker.

[Bailey_]

Welcome back Pugalicious! Sorry to hear about your health problems. Hopefully it's nothing to serious.

This very site states that each breed has general temperament characteristics. If this site, as well as many other sites and numerous books state there are certain personality characteristics shared by dogs of the same breed, why can't I use them as a starting point in selecting a dog? Yes I might end up with a dog that doesn't conform to the profile at all (especially with improper training), but it is more likely than not to be similar to all those other thousands of dogs that these breed profiles have been formulated upon.

Very, very true.

Originally Posted by Pugalicious

Up until recently I have always wanted a Bulldog. Not only do I find their appearance great, but those I've known have always had highly appealing personalities.
So now I'm searching for potential alternatives. My main concern is finding a dog with a similar personality. A dog that is loving, affectionate, but is low- energy and loves sitting and sleeping, and doesn't need constant energetic play time. A dog that can be alone when I'm working (I work at home, but don't want something yipping at me or tearing up the house while I can't play).

Because we all saw your specific, detailed criteria for your future-addition, we all agreed that rather basing your decision soley on what 'breed' you'd like, the best route may to be to look at individual dogs.

As you've probably already read in the thread, many dogs in foster homes - regardless of breed - will add up to what you're looking for. Age would play a huge factor in this, as would past training history and individual personality in the dog. You would be able to talk to the current foster families to determine what the dog was like in different situations and get a really great idea of what to expect after you brought your dog home.

While it's true that we can 'generalize breeds' into categories (hounds, sporting, working, toy, etc.), it would be quite hasty to make a decision based completley upon what is 'written up' by a breed, specifically because you were looking for certain temperment traits first and foremost. Which is why this site also has this disclaimer at the bottom:

Disclaimer: Pets.ca cannot be responsible for the accuracy of the above presented information.
Please double check all information prior to making any decisions about purchasing this or any breed.

Please note however that if you were looking strictly for a dog similar to the bulldog, not just 'temperment' wise, I'd be more inclined to label breeds for you. As this was not the case, that is not what we did. Hopefully this makes more sense.

I'm glad you were able to recieve information from the thread and hope it was useful to you!

Looking forward to hearing about your future addition, please keep us posted!!

[bulle]

Originally Posted by Pugalicious

Just to throw in my two cents for the moment: although I fully accept that dog temperaments will vary (sometimes widely) across individual animals, I will again state that I think generalizations can be made about breed temperaments and that these generalizations can be used when determining what type of dog might suit your needs. I offer this as proof. This very site states that each breed has general temperament characteristics. If this site, as well as many other sites and numerous books state there are certain personality characteristics shared by dogs of the same breed, why can't I use them as a starting point in selecting a dog? Yes I might end up with a dog that doesn't conform to the profile at all (especially with improper training), but it is more likely than not to be similar to all those other thousands of dogs that these breed profiles have been formulated upon.

For the most part I agree with Brecker.

You cannot go wrong using a breeds character trait as a sound measuring tool when matching the proper dog to you. It seems some have forgotten this when choosing the right dog (size and looks are first for most). The fact that Bulldogs have that "Bully personality" (look/character/personality all combined) that you adore (which I get 100%) but with genetic and health issues that are just wrong (which I agree 100%) make it tough to help. You may just want to visit the shelters on a regular basis in the hopes that one just "feel right"?

Do to your strict personality, size, and character requirements I have no idea what to recommend
looks like a bulldog
healthy
not yappy
under 50 lbs (the deal breaker for me - cause many larger breeds fit everything else)
low energy
independent

[Choochi]

A little late to this debate, but I can't help but notice that this Brecker character sounds incredibly like some one who has absolutely no working knowledge or experience with dogs of many breeds. All of Brecker's arguments sound like they are compiled based on nothing but knowledge from neatly written breed books that categorize the dogs into neat categories and give each breed a distinct description. His suggestions of breeds sound like they have been spat out by your typical online "pick a breed" generator, and he even copies and pastes from the CKC website to make his point.

Yes, breed characteristics exist and dogs bred for a certain purpose will usually exhibit specific traits. HOWEVER, and this is a big however, anyone who has spent enough time working with lots of dogs of lots of different breeds will know much dogs of the same breed can vary. Yes, if all the dogs in the world came from reputable breeders who bred their dogs for the correct conformation AND temperament this theory would work very well for choosing a dog, but let's face it, that's not the case.

Heck, even when it comes to good responsible breeders there are so many examples where too much emphasis is placed on the looks and conformation and not the temperament of the dogs. I would argue that even among the good breeders, not enough emphasis is placed on breeding dogs with the correct temperament for the breed to make that a deciding factor when picking a dog. Breeders must make breeding choices and often unless the temperament involves major flaws like serious aggression or fearfulness, the dogs are in large part picked to breed based on looks and health (not that that's a bad thing).

One only needs to look at the existence of working lines within breeds to realize this. Working dog breeders or breeders who actively participate with their dogs in breed specific activities and actually base their breeding programs on the performance of these dogs are the only case examples where the character of the dog can be more accurately relied upon. A typical show doberman bred for conformation would absolutely crumble on the protection training field, something that this breed was originally bred for. That's because majority of the breeders in the show ring don't take an active role in selecting dogs who are still capable of performing in that environment. If you don't train and test for it, you can't breed for it.

On top of that, the reality is that there are so many poorly bred "pure bred" dogs out there that barely resemble physically or with behaviour the dogs they are supposed to be. There are so many poorly bred dogs out there, period. Labs that are tall and lanky, rotts that weigh 140lbs, what makes you think that the temperament of these dogs is up to par when their bodies aren't and I would argue that's the easier of the two to keep within specs.

Brecker stated "All good! But I still stand with my "generalization" of types of breeds. We are dealing with "exceptions" after this point." Again, that's all good in the perfect world of breed descriptions in the books, but in the real world as I think many of us who actually work with dogs can say these "exceptions" can easily make up 50% or more of the dogs of that breed and they are no longer ignorable once in a million occurrences.

In the context of what this post has been originally about, I think it would indeed be a far better route for the op to not place as much emphasis on a text book breed description of a character as that may lead to disappointment. Breed descriptions are still great to narrow down your choices based on size and grooming requirements, but I honestly wouldn't use them as a very good guide for picking the temperament or personality of the dog. Use them as guidelines by all means, but with a big pinch of salt.

I think the suggestion to look on pet finder, rescue, or local shelters is indeed the best option. An older or mature dog would fit best into what Pugalicious has asked for in the dog. I personally would not recommend a puppy. If we were to play the breed game, I'm sure we could easily come up with some 40 if not more breeds that would be under 50lbs and fit the bill.

[Choochi]

Oh and off the top of my head the breed that most resembles what the op describes as a bulldog personality and fits under the 50lb mark: lhasa apso.

[Marty11]

How about the French Bulldog? I think a male is around 25 lbs?

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by Chooch

A typical show doberman bred for conformation would absolutely crumble on the protection training field, something that this breed was originally bred for.

I'm sorry but I sooooooooo disagree with this statement..I know of a few breeders who title in Conformation AND SchH...And we know that part of SchH is protection..I've raised GSD's..My breeder also titled in Conformation and SchH. There are also Lab breeders doing Conformation and Field.

Ethical breeders do breed for sound and temperment. I don't know of any ethical breeder who wouldn't..Temperment is a priority in their eyes. If their dogs had any signs of aggression, they wouldn't breed, period.

Yes dogs were bred in the past for a purpose. BUT some of that purpose no longer exists..Hmmmmmm do we need them to fight Bulls or chase rats out of a hole? Do we need them to run beside a fire truck? Yes there are still some breeds being used for what they are bred for, and farmers come to mind and yes hunters too..The Police Force and Service dogs( for the blind)..

Is every dog of the same breed the same? No..Does alot have to do with training? YES.That is another reason so many are in shelters..I hear Huskies are pullers and should NEVER be off a leash..That's funny, my sister is on a farm and has 3...They are never tied up and run around free(supervised) and in 12/13 years, not one has taken off. And when they are taken in town, they walk very nicely on the leash. I hear Labs are hyper. I have a co-worker with 2 (does field work with them) they are both very calm..Never seen a service dog acting up either or overweight.

Poorly bred dogs do not come from ethical breeders..They come from BYB's...I and breeders cringe when someone says they have a King Shepherd. No such breed in my books. Or the first breeder of the Shiloh Shepherd. Saying that she wanted to bring back the GSD she remembered as a child in Germany..The GSD back then did not weigh 140+ lbs..My mother lived in Germany for 10 years in her late teens..I have a pic of her first GSD..Not even close to this Shiloh Shepherd.

As for the Bulldog, the only one who can answer about them is an ethical breeder. And what I know and have read about them, they are layed back dogs with a low activity level..

Pugalicious, training is a number one priority. Your dog is what you make it...If you let it pull you on the leash as a pup and don't correct it, well that pup will still continue to pull as he gets older. If you don't want the pup to destroy the house, you teach it not to. It chews, you redirect him to a toy or bone.But I'm sure you know this....When you do decide to get one, just check out the shelters and rescues. Take your time.

[Choochi]

I think you completely missed my point and only re-iterated what I was saying. Regarding the doberman example, the operative word was "typical". Out of all the doberman breeders, as a percentage how many actively participate in sports like sch.? That was my point, that only the breeder who participate have dogs "true" to the full standard of conformation and temperament because through that sport they actually test the temperament. You said yourself you know a "few" breeder who participate in BOTH conformation and sports, and that's my point, it's not most breeders. Especially if you were in the sport you will completely understand that you can't just go to a dog show, and point your finger at the gsd breeders and go inny-miny-mo and pick your next police dog based on the assumption they're all gsd's. Yes that is a very specialized purposed but you know exactly how many gsd breeders would not even be a realistic prospect because they breed solely for conformation.

Yes ethical breeders do not breed aggressive dogs which was again my point exactly. The breeders that do not participate in character testing activities mainly breed for a temperament of a good pet which isn't necessarily true to breed standard. It's not a bad thing but some times does not lend itself to promoting a certain character type.

A group of breeders who breed jack russels for pets and shows only will eventually through selective breeding end up with dogs that are lovely and make great pets. While the group of breeders who participate in trials and breed for tenacious dogs who can also do well in conformation will by the same principles have dogs of some what different character. Doesn't mean the dogs will be aggressive, but they will be different and not for every one. Yet they will all be jack russels. My point mainly directed at Brecker is that these will be dogs of the same breed who behave differently regardless of having the same breed standard. By his logic every dog of the same breed should behave according to a stereotypical standard and that is a reliable way for some one to pick their next pet. I argue that is simply not realistic.

Originally Posted by mona_b

I'm sorry but I sooooooooo disagree with this statement..I know of a few breeders who title in Conformation AND SchH...And we know that part of SchH is protection..I've raised GSD's..My breeder also titled in Conformation and SchH. There are also Lab breeders doing Conformation and Field.

Ethical breeders do breed for sound and temperment. I don't know of any ethical breeder who wouldn't..Temperment is a priority in their eyes. If their dogs had any signs of aggression, they wouldn't breed, period.

Yes dogs were bred in the past for a purpose. BUT some of that purpose no longer exists..Hmmmmmm do we need them to fight Bulls or chase rats out of a hole? Do we need them to run beside a fire truck? Yes there are still some breeds being used for what they are bred for, and farmers come to mind and yes hunters too..The Police Force and Service dogs( for the blind)..

Is every dog of the same breed the same? No..Does alot have to do with training? YES.That is another reason so many are in shelters..I hear Huskies are pullers and should NEVER be off a leash..That's funny, my sister is on a farm and has 3...They are never tied up and run around free(supervised) and in 12/13 years, not one has taken off. And when they are taken in town, they walk very nicely on the leash. I hear Labs are hyper. I have a co-worker with 2 (does field work with them) they are both very calm..Never seen a service dog acting up either or overweight.

Poorly bred dogs do not come from ethical breeders..They come from BYB's...I and breeders cringe when someone says they have a King Shepherd. No such breed in my books. Or the first breeder of the Shiloh Shepherd. Saying that she wanted to bring back the GSD she remembered as a child in Germany..The GSD back then did not weigh 140+ lbs..My mother lived in Germany for 10 years in her late teens..I have a pic of her first GSD..Not even close to this Shiloh Shepherd.

As for the Bulldog, the only one who can answer about them is an ethical breeder. And what I know and have read about them, they are layed back dogs with a low activity level..

Pugalicious, training is a number one priority. Your dog is what you make it...If you let it pull you on the leash as a pup and don't correct it, well that pup will still continue to pull as he gets older. If you don't want the pup to destroy the house, you teach it not to. It chews, you redirect him to a toy or bone.But I'm sure you know this....When you do decide to get one, just check out the shelters and rescues. Take your time.

[Macomom]

I understand that this thread has morphed into a dialogue about breed and specific breed traits.
My suggestion, why doesn't the OP just get a bulldog? There are lots in rescues that need help, and not purchasing one from a breeder means that you are not encouraging the demand of irresponsible breeding.
As these dogs become adults, I see more and more of them developing dominance traits and being dumped. They do need some help...
Just a thought..

[Choochi]

Originally Posted by Macomom

I understand that this thread has morphed into a dialogue about breed and specific breed traits.
My suggestion, why doesn't the OP just get a bulldog? There are lots in rescues that need help, and not purchasing one from a breeder means that you are not encouraging the demand of irresponsible breeding.
As these dogs become adults, I see more and more of them developing dominance traits and being dumped. They do need some help...
Just a thought..

Why didn't any one think of this before? I think that's the best post in the entire thread!

[Bailey_]

I doubt the OP will return to read this as this is an older thread, however the OP did make it clear they were not interested in the bulldog breed b/c of associated health issues.