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  #1  
Old May 1st, 2017, 07:57 PM
chrishgallant chrishgallant is offline
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Constant itch please help

Hi there,

I have a just over a year old Springer Spaniel (Field) Pup that needs all your help.

As a preface, he is on a store bought raw diet (raw dog chicken). Was previously on Acana single source (Pacific Pilchard) and changed to Raw to control his poop problem (lots of volume, typically runny or diarrhea)

-This fixed this problem, Thank the powers that be.

The current and continual problem since we got him at 12 weeks old or so. He is a CHRONIC itcher.

I know this has been spoken about likely countless times... but I don't exactly have countless time to look at all the forums on this site.

He is on his prescribed dose of Apoquel and the effects of this medication are seemingly starting to dissipate, but I don't want to increase the dosage, rather I would LOVE to take him off of it.

How should I start? What should I look for?

Need all the guidance that I can possibly get.

Thank you all in advance.
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  #2  
Old May 1st, 2017, 10:39 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
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Your dog could have a chicken allergy , this will cause your to be itchy.
You could try feeding your dog another kind of meat and see if that helps .
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  #3  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 06:37 AM
chrishgallant chrishgallant is offline
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Thanks BarkingDog.

As I stated in the post, he used to eat pacific pilchard for more than 3 months and the itching did not subside.

When I changed back to a raw diet (chicken) I did not see a difference in his behaviour when it came to itching.
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  #4  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 08:43 AM
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marko marko is offline
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Hi Chris,

We always have to eliminate the most obvious first....sorry if the question is too obvious.

Has the dog seen a vet for fleas/mites/ticks or other insects that might make a cat itch. And where exactly is the dog scratching?
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  #5  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 10:19 AM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Skin conditions aside, lets talk diet. Improper raw diet is worse than kibble. My Pin has an allergy to wheat products, almost immediately he'll start sneezing and welling up in the eyes.

You say the dog is on a raw chicken diet, which brand in particular? Many of these commercial meals contain liver only, not enough. And dogs need more proteins than chicken. They should have at least 3 or 4 proteins rotated in their diet - one should be fish.

Many commercial dog foods contain fruits and veg - sugars, starch, carbs etc that can create a yeasty condition - itchy dog. Check the ingredients of the food.

Any other supplements you're using? Any treats you're feeding?
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  #6  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 10:20 AM
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Marty11 Marty11 is offline
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I agree. Rule out fleas/ticks and mange. We went through the same thing and never resolved it. I can tell you that this happened right after vaccinating my dog. She has never been the same. We too tried all food sources. She is now on raw chicken and veggies from a butcher. Coconut oil just recently added has helped her flaky dry skin. Where does your dog mainly itch? And is he chewing his feet? Any sores or hives or broken skin?
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  #7  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 10:38 AM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Originally Posted by Marty11 View Post
I agree. Rule out fleas/ticks and mange. We went through the same thing and never resolved it. I can tell you that this happened right after vaccinating my dog. She has never been the same. We too tried all food sources. She is now on raw chicken and veggies from a butcher. Coconut oil just recently added has helped her flaky dry skin. Where does your dog mainly itch? And is he chewing his feet? Any sores or hives or broken skin?
Is that all your dog eats is chicken and veg?
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  #8  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 12:10 PM
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Marty11 Marty11 is offline
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Your off topic now. But Marty gets lots of other proteins. That is her main meal. We eat meat protein and she gets many different kinds as well. Saying that I may get some raw beef and mix it in with her chicken. Thanks
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  #9  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 12:23 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Originally Posted by Marty11 View Post
Your off topic now. But Marty gets lots of other proteins. That is her main meal. We eat meat protein and she gets many different kinds as well. Saying that I may get some raw beef and mix it in with her chicken. Thanks
It's not off topic Marty, diet is probably the number one reason for poor coat health and itch. This is the very reason why we make a switch to raw from kibble. I'm sorry, but I've seen many well meaning owners switch their dog to raw and do it incorrectly. Malnourishment can quickly lead to immunity issues, gut issues, overall health issues. Dogs need a full range of organ meats to balance out the diet, many are feeding just liver and it's not enough. Or too much liver, what do you think too much iron does to the body? Hemochromatosis. What are the possible repercussions and side effects...

Some others are following poor advice from commercial raw producers, and supplementing with stuff like kelp, it's an iodine overload. Iodine will mess with the thyroid, autoimmune, the result will be an itchy dog. Trust me, chased thyroid in a dog for 3 years, watched the poor bugger rip itself apart - finally got diagnosis.

Dogs don't need vegetables or fruit, many contain sugars and carbs that promote yeast - hence the itch.


then throw steroids at the problem, steroids suppress the dogs immune system - and again, mucks with the thyroid. Now you're on a merry go round that you can't get off of.
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  #10  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 04:30 PM
Shazanne Shazanne is offline
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Hi. You've got a lot of suggestions above from people who likely know more than me, but I will share my current experience in the hope it may help you in some way.
Firstly - wean off the Apoquel. It's a dangerous drug that does exactly what you're finding out. You will need to regularly increase the dose until it no longer works at all. What it will have done in the meantime is supress your dogs immune system leaving him open to other conditions. Research this drug - it is relatively new and there are no long term studies (as in many years of use) but the known effects are what your dog is already experiencing. I refused this drug outright for my dog.
On a more positive note - I am working with a holistic vet on my dogs skin issue. She is currently on a non-processed elimination diet. She is eating a commercial (vet recommended) raw food that contains a novel protein for her - as in one she has never been exposed to before. In my dogs case this is rabbit, including organ and bone but nothing else added.
I am aware of the argument about dogs not needing vegetables - but the vet suggested cooked squash for fibre (my dog can't have pumpkin) and kale, green beans and blueberries (antioxidants) and also coconut oil. I am also giving a good pro-biotic to help her system make the transition. She has had pancreatitis in the past so I need to be gentle with her digestive system.
This was the advice I was given and I have no reason at this point to dispute it. But I am in the early stages of this diet so if problems arise I will most definitely make whatever changes are deemed necessary.
The most important factor in my dogs diet is the use of the novel protein and the veg/fruit are all novel to her too.
I am not trying to contradict anyone else who has commented, nor am I trying to push my regime on you - but it made sense to me so perhaps you may also see some wisdom in it.
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  #11  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 06:28 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Originally Posted by Shazanne View Post
This was the advice I was given and I have no reason at this point to dispute it. But I am in the early stages of this diet so if problems arise I will most definitely make whatever changes are deemed necessary.
Liver is packed with a specific vitamin, squash is high in the same vitamin. That vitamin is A, you might want to put your research skills to work on that one.

Squash itself is 9% fiber from sugars and carbs. If your dog is having skin issues, this won't get you to the bottom of it. Get rid of sugars and carbs. Do you really want to feed sugar and carbs to a dog with pancreatitis? The organ responsible for producing insulin?
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  #12  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 07:11 PM
chrishgallant chrishgallant is offline
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Originally Posted by marko View Post
Hi Chris,

We always have to eliminate the most obvious first....sorry if the question is too obvious.

Has the dog seen a vet for fleas/mites/ticks or other insects that might make a cat itch. And where exactly is the dog scratching?
Hi, Thank you so much for the response.

Recently, I can't say that he has since December, however, he would have been checked and treated at that time.

This isn't a new problem for him, he's had these problems since he was 4 months old or so and would itch/lick constantly. We left him for a weekend with some friends and he licked his paw raw, requiring antibiotics etc to heal...

Though I do not think that this is the problem, we are planning on bringing him in the next week or two, likely next week.

If not clear before, he itches sometimes on a day-to-day basis but not more than what I believe a "normal" dog would, BUT he is medicated (which I would like to eliminate)
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  #13  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 07:18 PM
chrishgallant chrishgallant is offline
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Originally Posted by rhynes View Post
Skin conditions aside, lets talk diet. Improper raw diet is worse than kibble. My Pin has an allergy to wheat products, almost immediately he'll start sneezing and welling up in the eyes.

You say the dog is on a raw chicken diet, which brand in particular? Many of these commercial meals contain liver only, not enough. And dogs need more proteins than chicken. They should have at least 3 or 4 proteins rotated in their diet - one should be fish.

Many commercial dog foods contain fruits and veg - sugars, starch, carbs etc that can create a yeasty condition - itchy dog. Check the ingredients of the food.

Any other supplements you're using? Any treats you're feeding?
The Brand that we are using is called: Mega Dog Raw.

They sell several different protein types, but chicken is much cheaper than the others (understandably) but this is not a limitation.

From the label and in order the ingredients are as follows: Chicken w/bone, vegetables(carrots, zucchini, collard greens, broccoli) Chicken Liver, Kelp.


It is 'local' and I say that loosely because they distribute nationwide (Canada) but I live really close to where they originally make the stuff.

In the Guaranteed analysis listed, the food contains:
Protein: 13.4%
Fat: 18%
Fiber: 3.7%
Moisture: 61%

Let me know what you think about this food, flexible to change but not flexible to make it myself (almost zero spare time as it is).
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  #14  
Old May 2nd, 2017, 07:25 PM
chrishgallant chrishgallant is offline
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Originally Posted by Shazanne View Post
Hi. You've got a lot of suggestions above from people who likely know more than me, but I will share my current experience in the hope it may help you in some way.
Firstly - wean off the Apoquel. It's a dangerous drug that does exactly what you're finding out. You will need to regularly increase the dose until it no longer works at all. What it will have done in the meantime is supress your dogs immune system leaving him open to other conditions. Research this drug - it is relatively new and there are no long term studies (as in many years of use) but the known effects are what your dog is already experiencing. I refused this drug outright for my dog.
On a more positive note - I am working with a holistic vet on my dogs skin issue. She is currently on a non-processed elimination diet. She is eating a commercial (vet recommended) raw food that contains a novel protein for her - as in one she has never been exposed to before. In my dogs case this is rabbit, including organ and bone but nothing else added.
I am aware of the argument about dogs not needing vegetables - but the vet suggested cooked squash for fibre (my dog can't have pumpkin) and kale, green beans and blueberries (antioxidants) and also coconut oil. I am also giving a good pro-biotic to help her system make the transition. She has had pancreatitis in the past so I need to be gentle with her digestive system.
This was the advice I was given and I have no reason at this point to dispute it. But I am in the early stages of this diet so if problems arise I will most definitely make whatever changes are deemed necessary.
The most important factor in my dogs diet is the use of the novel protein and the veg/fruit are all novel to her too.
I am not trying to contradict anyone else who has commented, nor am I trying to push my regime on you - but it made sense to me so perhaps you may also see some wisdom in it.


Hi Shazanne,

thank you for your comments and your recount of your situation, I can definitely relate to you.

I've seen the "horror" stories etc of the drug and to be honest when I started him on this treatment I said to myself that I would take him off as soon as he had any adverse reactions to the drug, because at the time I was in a very difficult situation to solve this all on my(and my partners) own. The vets continued to give us potential solutions that were costly and not working so this was essentially our last resort at the time.

I don't, however, see increasing dosage as an adverse reaction. It is the nature of drugs in general in any animal. I just would rather a less costly intervention and if I can do so naturally or through better diet/some other solution I would gladly do so.

I can't afford the time to ween off if I do not have a plan though, which is why I am here.
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 07:30 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Originally Posted by chrishgallant View Post
The Brand that we are using is called: Mega Dog Raw.

They sell several different protein types, but chicken is much cheaper than the others (understandably) but this is not a limitation.

From the label and in order the ingredients are as follows: Chicken w/bone, vegetables(carrots, zucchini, collard greens, broccoli) Chicken Liver, Kelp.


It is 'local' and I say that loosely because they distribute nationwide (Canada) but I live really close to where they originally make the stuff.

In the Guaranteed analysis listed, the food contains:
Protein: 13.4%
Fat: 18%
Fiber: 3.7%
Moisture: 61%

Let me know what you think about this food, flexible to change but not flexible to make it myself (almost zero spare time as it is).
I'm about ready to pull my hair out over these commercial diets. Liver only - and kelp. Your dog CANNOT live on that. Again, nutritional imbalance - in your case malnourishment - is going to affect your dog in very negative ways.

I always tell people to research prey model raw, but at this point, you need to get some vitamins and minerals into the dog. Go buy a bag of vitamin powder, it's better than nothing.

My advice to you.
- Get the dog off all meds asap, and give the system time to heal. This won't be an overnight process, it takes time.
- Get some real nourishment into the dog. Not a big fan of commercial products, but there are other commercial products out there that are more balanced. Proper raw contains a variety of organ meats. You can buy canned tripe, not a big fan of feeding guar gum but it is what it is...

My biggest piece of advice? Start a daily diary and maintain it. Write down what you feed the dog, how much itching on a scale of 1 to 10, what does the poop look like, energy levels etc.

From here on in, make one change and wait for results. I find people try everything at one time - and never know what works.
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 10:05 PM
Shazanne Shazanne is offline
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Originally Posted by rhynes View Post
Liver is packed with a specific vitamin, squash is high in the same vitamin. That vitamin is A, you might want to put your research skills to work on that one.

Squash itself is 9% fiber from sugars and carbs. If your dog is having skin issues, this won't get you to the bottom of it. Get rid of sugars and carbs. Do you really want to feed sugar and carbs to a dog with pancreatitis? The organ responsible for producing insulin?
I have put my research skills to use as it happens.

My dog gets 5% squash and 15% veg/fruit - 80% meat/bone/organ.
Her mild pancreatic episodes were caused by high fat content in food - as is the case with most pancreatic patients. Her vet is aware of her history and a 5% serving of squash daily is well within her tolerance limits - in fact it poses no risk.
Secondly, vitamin A is excellent for the coat/skin in canines and, at the proper levels which she is getting, is of benefit to her for her particular skin issue. She is also on a balancing liquid homeopathic remedy.

I am working with a highly reputable conventional/homeopathic vet with many years of experience. I didn't pull this diet out of the sky without ensuring that it was right for my dog at this time. I have had my dog tested for allergy triggers in her diet by Glacier Peak Holistics so I am pretty certain that all of the ingredients she is eating in her food are suitable for her. That is why her elimination diet is so rigid and carefully selected by her vet.

I posted my comment to give the original poster my own personal account, not to contradict other people who may know better than me, or to state that my approach is better than others, or to run my views down their throat. It was my understanding that this is one of the primary purposes of these discussions threads. I have gotten very valuable information on here from other peoples experiences on here, including you on several occasions Rhynes.

I did NOT post it to have the advice of my vet undermined or questioned. I am doing what I believe to be right in my dogs best interest at this point after a long a tiresome road of test after test that gave no answers.
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 10:59 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Originally Posted by Shazanne View Post
I have put my research skills to use as it happens.

My dog gets 5% squash and 15% veg/fruit - 80% meat/bone/organ.
Her mild pancreatic episodes were caused by high fat content in food - as is the case with most pancreatic patients. Her vet is aware of her history and a 5% serving of squash daily is well within her tolerance limits - in fact it poses no risk.
Secondly, vitamin A is excellent for the coat/skin in canines and, at the proper levels which she is getting, is of benefit to her for her particular skin issue. She is also on a balancing liquid homeopathic remedy.

I am working with a highly reputable conventional/homeopathic vet with many years of experience. I didn't pull this diet out of the sky without ensuring that it was right for my dog at this time. I have had my dog tested for allergy triggers in her diet by Glacier Peak Holistics so I am pretty certain that all of the ingredients she is eating in her food are suitable for her. That is why her elimination diet is so rigid and carefully selected by her vet.

I posted my comment to give the original poster my own personal account, not to contradict other people who may know better than me, or to state that my approach is better than others, or to run my views down their throat. It was my understanding that this is one of the primary purposes of these discussions threads. I have gotten very valuable information on here from other peoples experiences on here, including you on several occasions Rhynes.

I did NOT post it to have the advice of my vet undermined or questioned. I am doing what I believe to be right in my dogs best interest at this point after a long a tiresome road of test after test that gave no answers.

Hey, it's your dog. Do what you feel is right. The OP definitely has issues with diet.
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 11:23 PM
Shazanne Shazanne is offline
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Hey, it's your dog. Do what you feel is right. The OP definitely has issues with diet.
I agree. Which is why I gave an account of my 'personal' approach. But it was long, laborious, costly and frustrating to get to the stage I am at now and I am only beginning this process. after months of testing etc. I feel in my gut that I may be finally on he right track - but I honestly don't know yet.
An elimination diet is just as it states, as you know - everything she is currently eating is new to her and none of it is an identified stressor to her system. That has to be a positive for her. She is being monitored bi-weekly while on her new diet and I am keeping a daily record of any changes/issues/concerns I notice.
I have no idea what the future holds when the elimination process is over but I am hoping and praying to be able to move on with a successful and healthy regime.
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 11:35 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Originally Posted by Shazanne View Post
I agree. Which is why I gave an account of my 'personal' approach. But it was long, laborious, costly and frustrating to get to the stage I am at now and I am only beginning this process. after months of testing etc. I feel in my gut that I may be finally on he right track - but I honestly don't know yet.
An elimination diet is just as it states, as you know - everything she is currently eating is new to her and none of it is an identified stressor to her system. That has to be a positive for her. She is being monitored bi-weekly while on her new diet and I am keeping a daily record of any changes/issues/concerns I notice.
I have no idea what the future holds when the elimination process is over but I am hoping and praying to be able to move on with a successful and healthy regime.
Where you are, I've been. Watched my ex's minpin rip itself to shreds and a bunch of useless vets. As I mentioned in the other thread on Apoquel, I did a synthroid trial on the dog. 3 days worth of pills @ 50 mcg twice a day. It won't hurt the dog and he ended up on 100 mcg twice a day anyhow. If I had my time back, I would have done that 3 years ago and saved the dog a whole lot of misery and us a whole lot of cash. And if I ever find myself in that situation again, I'll do the same thing.


I only know what I know.
Number 1, I question everything a vet says. The one vet that wanted to put the Pin on prednisone would have likely killed the dog. He was highly recommended but too lazy and arrogant to do the tests I requested.
Number 2, my current minpin was raised on kibble for the first 5 years of his life. In the 6 months I've had him, he's been raw fed. Zero fruit, zero veg, zero fiber, zero sugar, zero wheat etc - and healthy as they come. He never scratches anymore. So do dogs need fruit and veg? No.

Take it for what it's worth. I'm not looking to argue.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 02:53 AM
Shazanne Shazanne is offline
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Where you are, I've been. Watched my ex's minpin rip itself to shreds and a bunch of useless vets. As I mentioned in the other thread on Apoquel, I did a synthroid trial on the dog. 3 days worth of pills @ 50 mcg twice a day. It won't hurt the dog and he ended up on 100 mcg twice a day anyhow. If I had my time back, I would have done that 3 years ago and saved the dog a whole lot of misery and us a whole lot of cash. And if I ever find myself in that situation again, I'll do the same thing.


I only know what I know.
Number 1, I question everything a vet says. The one vet that wanted to put the Pin on prednisone would have likely killed the dog. He was highly recommended but too lazy and arrogant to do the tests I requested.
Number 2, my current minpin was raised on kibble for the first 5 years of his life. In the 6 months I've had him, he's been raw fed. Zero fruit, zero veg, zero fiber, zero sugar, zero wheat etc - and healthy as they come. He never scratches anymore. So do dogs need fruit and veg? No.

Take it for what it's worth. I'm not looking to argue.
I question too - but perhaps not enough as I work for the vet that cared for my dog until very recently. We disagreed a lot about medication, particularly Apoquel. Now I have switched to the holistic vet so my dogs care is not at the clinic where I work. My new vet feels the same about Apoquel and a number of other drugs as I do thankfully.

My dog is not a scratcher - never really was - apart from licking her groin area a lot which may be an obsessive habit apparently. Her issues are hair loss on her ears and blackening skin, no itching. I've been up and down the thyroid road a number of times with her at this point as her symptoms are common in hypothyroidism. But her bloods have never indicated it although some of her readings have been on the lower side of normal.

I have discussed this with her new vet and have shown her my dogs blood work, including the report from Dr. Dodds, which did not flag her thyroid as an issue. My vet is not adverse to a trial of thyroid medication if this current elimination diet process does not yield results. But she feels that my dogs problems may be rooted in the gastrointestinal system so that is being tackled first in case there is an allergy/intolerance/sensitivity issue with food. She can have mucous in her stool and extremely bad breath despite have had a dental. My dog will be fully evaluated at the end of the elimination diet process and her bloods will be checked (yet again!)

Like I say, I am at the beginning of what could be a lengthy process or I could be finally getting to the root of the problem - I am trying to be optimistic

I have no desire to argue either - why would I? I value your opinion and you say it as you see it - I value that too. But I will respond to clarify or object!!!

As a matter of interest - what raw diet do you feed? I suspect you maybe make your own and, if so, I'd love to hear about it. I firmly believed that my dogs could not eat raw - I had issues in the past with both of them and vowed never to try again. But (and its only very early days) both appear to be ok this time round. I have also switched my other dog as he needs to lose weight and its way easier to feed them the same at this time rather than worry that the one that needs the elimination diet will manage to get into the other ones bowl and scupper the whole process!!!

As regards the need for fruit and veg - we'll have to agree to disagree on that at present. I can't give any feedback on that other than it was what I was advised to do for the duration of this elimination process. I can reiterate that the fruit/veg I am feeding are 'safe' for my dog in terms of not being flagged as ones she is allergic or sensitive to and that is the primary concern at present.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 10:11 AM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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So you're starting off from scratch with a new vet, and they are doing the typical food trial protocol. Every vet I've encountered will do that irregardless. We spent 3 years doing food trials just to satisfy vets protocols, kibble after kibble til we ran out of options. Then I had to do raw food trials, not easy to find meats that aren't in kibble. Found wild bison and a couple of other proteins from guys that hunt in the US. That poor dog was poked and prodded. List of symptoms so long and ever growing, really got worried that we were going to find him dead on the floor one morning.

Cooked fat is a culprit in pancreatitis, raw fat not so much. Rendered fat in dog food isn't good. I gave the Pin a whole cooked turkey wing as a treat. Off to the vet, told to let it run it's course. poor dog spent 2 days in bed shaking like a leaf - pancreatitis, didn't poop, wouldn't eat. Yet, raw fat has never affected him.

I do prey model raw which isn't easy with a small dog, hard to maintain balance. Make my own offal pucks from every organ I can source - I liquefy them, mix them and freeze them as ice cubes. Stinks to the high hills, but dogs love them. Tried a commercial raw product for a month out of convenience, but i don't know whether to trust the food or not - some commercial raw producers are pushing products like kelp and colloidal silver daily for dogs - doesn't give me much hope.

Most dogs have chronic intolerance built up over years, allergy is not that common in dogs - and many of the tests aren't really accurate anyway. My current Pin is alleric to wheat, garners an immediate reaction - watery eyes, sneezing, reverse sneezing, canon butt. Trying to keep people from feeding treats isn't that easy with a small cute dog. Kibble isn't an option anyway.

I would do a synthroid trial, even for just a few days. Thyroxine is one of those hormones that dances with most organs in the body. If synthroid makes any positive changes, now you have a real starting point - it may not be hypothyroidism but something else down the line. Just that little push over the line is sometimes all it takes. It never ceases to amaze me how something dosed in micrograms can do so much to the body.
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Old May 4th, 2017, 08:20 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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Originally Posted by chrishgallant View Post
...
This isn't a new problem for him, he's had these problems since he was 4 months old or so and would itch/lick constantly. We left him for a weekend with some friends and he licked his paw raw, requiring antibiotics etc to heal...

Though I do not think that this is the problem, we are planning on bringing him in the next week or two, likely next week.

If not clear before, he itches sometimes on a day-to-day basis but not more than what I believe a "normal" dog would, BUT he is medicated (which I would like to eliminate)
A healthy dog will rarely itch at all, if ever.

Personally I would run a full Spectrum allergy blood test to help pinpoint environmental and food allergies, all sources contribute to histamine load. If there are a lot of environmental allergies, you might need to look at allergy shots or drops to treat the immune system.

Bathing regularly, at least once a week.

Yes, get the diet right, but that's really hard to do without help, and i've used the spectrum test for that too, though many vets don't believe it helps, but it does.

Consider that some itching may be discomfort or pain from bad neck, hips or spine, so chiropractic and/or acupuncture is worth trying and will contribute to health in the long run.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 11:23 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=87626

This thread ^ running now might help you as well. You both have the same problem. Poor pups.
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