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  #61  
Old September 19th, 2006, 12:17 PM
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I think the problem, Cygnet, is that while your posts are written quite eloquent, it's the thoughts and ideas behind them that are not. Reading through them, I can't help but think of the kids in my neighbourhood driving thier Hondas with the fake after-market body panels and such--nice looking car, not much power under the hood, though. Your posts are those of someone who has not actually done much research, other than on bulletin boards (at least one) and perhaps some newspaper headlines.

The first issue, "pitty people" being defensive. You are right. Many of us are quick (perhaps sometimes too quick) to blindly defend any pitbull accused of wrong. However, I don't know how familiar you are with the Ontario issue (I would gather not really), but many of those who are the most defensive are the same people who have been ostracized and accused, and in a couple of cases, physically attacked for having what someone thought was a pitbull (more on that in a moment). You see, in Ontario, we no longer have dog attacks, we have pitbull attacks. For example, while I was off, five minutes from my home within a month were 3 dog attacks. Not one made the major newspapers, including the border collie which had to be shot by police. In another case, the dog had a muzzle order. When the dog, unmuzzled, attacked yet again, the police gave the dog back. When the officer was questioned why he wasn't doing more, he replied, "The dog isn't a pitbull, so there is nothing I can charge him with". Ironically, five minutes down the road, where my dog lives(who's been called a pitbull mix), who is hand fed biscuits by my one-year old daughter, if a vindictive neighbour hears me playing with her and decides that her "grumbles" are growls of aggression, the police could be called, and under the law, Daisy will be destroyed, and I will be eligible for a $50 000 fine.

My other point, about being accused of being a pitbull. One of the attacks by a member on the board (I'll let her identify herself if she wishes) was attacked by individuals in a car throwing a vodka bottle at her and her dog, which is not a pitbull, but a breed that averages about 150 lbs. Any person who cares to educate themselves knows that pitbulls are at most 85-90 lbs. And has also been mentioned, there have been several proven cases where a dog was labled a pitbull (twice by our illustrious Attorney General), and experts later said no, it wasn't. So, yea, sometimes we get a little defensive.

But back to this "dangerous" breed. Most attacks are determined to be a "pitbull mix" (if you chose to read past the headlines), which leads one to wonder...if the breed is so dangerous on it's own, why is it necessary to mix it? Could it be that it is the strength of the pitbull that the BYB'er is looking for, and not the tempermant? So, is this a pitbull problem?

You mention the high number of pitbulls in shelters. Again, I can only speak from the Canadian point of view (I don't know if you are Canadian or not, but I do know that your stats, if true, aren't). Many pitbulls (before the ban) are found wandering the streets (mine included). And most are determined to be gentle dogs. Speaking to the shelter workers, the common thought has been that the dog wasn't vicious enough, and was abandoned. After all, any pitbull expert will tell you that pitbulls make notoriously bad gaurd dogs (as one owner found out in Peel region, when he returned home to an ransacked house, a package of hot dogs with only one wiener missing, and a 7 year old pit. Police determined that the hot dogs were originally to keep the dog busy, but the crooks found out that they weren't necessary given the friendliness of the dog. I suspect the amiacable pooch even offered to hold the flashlight).

I find your idea of having the kennel associations mandate a "wagging tail". I won't get into the absurdity of that, but rather let me say this. First of, using the Staffordshire Terrier, one of the banned breeds, as a pitbull. In Canada, there is no recorded case of one single staffie killing, maiming, mauling, etc of anyone. Yet, they are banned. Using the same example, these dogs are called "nanny dogs" in the UK because of their temparmant, but that has not stopped them being labled "vicious pitbulls". And if you look up breed temparmants, you'll find that the staffie is listed as "great family companion, good with children". But lets suppose they did implemant some sort of test for temparmant? I would suspect that most people who are involved with any kennel club would already know the bogusness of these claims. And while I don't often watch dog shows, the ones I have seen, almost everytime these dogs are on, the announcers have talked about the "bad rap" of these "friendly dogs". No, I suspect that anyone who would take the time to consult the AKC, CKC, etc, would have already consulted the experts and other resources and would already be aware of the true temparmant of the breed.

Which brings me to my next point. You suggest that "pitty people" make thier own recommendations. Perhaps you should research the issue a little more. More specifically, I direct you to the Provincial Government Hansard that has the minutes from each of the four public committee meetings, where many alternatives were presented. As a matter of fact, there were no experts who were supportive of the BSL, only people who said that thier neighbours pitbull growled at them, and a municipal employee from Winnipeg who, while proving that the BSL in that city did indeed lower the rates of pitbull attacks, neglected to mention that the three years following, overall dog attacks increased. Then maybe take a look at the minutes from the parliamentary vote. Not one member of the current ruling party voted against the BSL, despite several constituents (including several on this board) being told that they didn't necessarily agree with it, but it was not an open vote. So, alternatives were suggested, and ignored. Even a member from Calgary was invited by the oppostion government to speak at the comittee meetings (Calgary has been listed as a success story for reducing dog attacks, including pitbulls, with no breed restrictions whatsoever), and the ruling party denied the request.

Lastly, as has been stated. This whole issue smells funny. How did the dog get the cat? Did it tip-toe in, or was the door left open? While, at the end of the day, it is probably fair to say that the dog's actions can not necessarily be excused, the lack of details is quite suspicious. And when you're told that "a pitbull killed my cat, so yours should be outlawed" without any details, you'll forgive one for being a little more than slightly defensive.

No, Cygent, I don't think you're a troll. But I do think you are a little less educated about the issue then you give yourself credit for.
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  #62  
Old September 19th, 2006, 12:19 PM
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Oh, and sorry for the wordiness (and if there was any overlap with you, babyrock). I'm posting between phone calls here, and it's taken me an hour to do it!
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  #63  
Old September 19th, 2006, 12:30 PM
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excellent posts pitgrrl, babyrocky & schwinn
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  #64  
Old September 19th, 2006, 03:52 PM
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Wow Schwinn,great post
I don't have a pit-bull,or even a dog,but what I've learned from people on this Forum who own one,has me convinced Pitties are just as wonderful as any other dog,maybe even more so.
As with any dog,if treated badly a pit-bull,will react.
If treated as he should be,with love and care,he will be a great loving dog,like any other well trained,loved dog
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  #65  
Old September 19th, 2006, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwinn
Oh, and sorry for the wordiness (and if there was any overlap with you, babyrock). I'm posting between phone calls here, and it's taken me an hour to do it!
No problem Schwinn...apparantly it cant be repeated often enough! LOL Calgary, Calgary, Calgary!
And as both Schwinn and I have pointed out...WE "PITTIE PEOPLE" have come up with important positive alternatives....so Cygnet I will ask YOU again as I have in other posts, if you feel so strongly that "your" ideas are best then by all means go to the governments involved in BSL and propose them as a compromise and then you might see what you are up against. If we had proposed that compromise to the Ontario Government (and Im not sure someone didnt) I would bet my LIFE that it would NOT have been accepted because THE "PIt Bull Ban" has never had anything to do with public safety in Ontario and probably not much to do with it in any place else either.

Honest governments who have looked at BSL and the HUGE amount of evidence against it have rejected in favour of laws that are similar to the ones in CALGARY!
Please see Hansard!
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Old September 19th, 2006, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitgrrl


Perhaps if the plight of pitbulls is weighing so heavy on you, you could look into getting involved or starting up similar programs in your area, rather than sitting back and critizing the breed and it's communities.
Exactly.....! This is whats so frustrating, dont waste time arguing with us...go do something postive or even what you believe is positive and then maybe we will take you more seriously!
You seem to have taken every opportunity you can to post something obviously antagonistic towards the majority of this board so I once AGAIN I question your motivation.
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Last edited by babyrocky1; September 19th, 2006 at 04:14 PM.
  #67  
Old September 19th, 2006, 04:34 PM
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It seems this argument is going on in several threads and it's going nowhere,other than making pittie owners frustrated and angry,righfully so.
I know of one,to me,very important member of this Forum,who could not handle this discussion and is now no longer present and it is a terrible shame.:sad:
It seems a huge brickwall has been erected by one person and trying to tear it down is an impossible task.
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  #68  
Old September 19th, 2006, 04:42 PM
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Your right Chico, I would like to see the links to hansard posted again though and also the petition that we had against bill 132, that way people that are just coming online can see for themsleves. Ive been searching for them but we all know I suck at that kind of thing LOL
Does anyone know were theres some text summing up the Calgary laws?
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  #69  
Old September 19th, 2006, 04:48 PM
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To go back to an issue that cropped up several pages ago . . . the daschund rescue lists the reason each dog was turned over to them. NONE of their current dogs were turned over due to animal aggression. (I can't check on their previous dogs, obviously, as their profiles are gone.) The rescue "tests" their temperament with cats in a controlled environment (so the cats won't be hurt), which is how they know they're cat-aggressive.
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Old September 19th, 2006, 05:04 PM
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a couple of links:

Ontario hansard:

http://www.ontla.on.ca/hansard/commi...embly/M009.htm

Calgary model vs. Ontario bill 132:

http://www.bdnhumanesociety.com/calgary_solution.htm
  #71  
Old September 19th, 2006, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Again, what does it mean to be deemed "aggressive"? The types of temperment tests used in many shelters would fail a dog for showing high prey drive or dog aggression. To me, neither of these traits should be labled as generic aggression. If a dog is highly fearful, shows signs of human aggression, etc. than by all means, give the dog a great day, some love, and then do the responsible thing and cull.
Not all highly fearful dogs are going to bite or attack . And when it comes to genetically fearful it does not become apparent until the dog hits puberty, those that are fearful due to undersocialation will be fearful at a much earlier age.
There are 2 difference responses to fear one is flight and the other to defend, and fearful dogs can fall into either category, a behaviourist that I worked with years ago showed me how he tested for the responses to determine which would be fear biters. I have had 2 spooks Callie even in extreme pain with cancer ehen I had to pick her and move her would not put her teeth on me. THe first 2 years I had to corner Maya whenever I needed to handle her never once has she shown any type of agression

To suggest all fearful dogs should be culled is no different than suggesting all pits are agressive and should be culled, that is the problem with using generalized statements
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Old September 19th, 2006, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntarioGreys
To suggest all fearful dogs should be culled is no different than suggesting all pits are agressive and should be culled, that is the problem with using generalized statements
My mistake, I wasn't clear. I was just trying to illustrate a example of dog who's temperment was not clearly unsafe, but you're absolutely right, the way I wrote it did communicate an unfairly generalized statement, one which I did not intend.
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Old September 19th, 2006, 09:33 PM
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hey prin.... any updates on the letter in yesterday's gazette? any backlash, reply letters to the editor? it seems the original idea behind this thread got lost somewhere: i STILL want to know how the heck a dog just wandered into an NDG appartment, attacked & killed a cat, was still there when the police arrived and never turned on the crutch that was beating it!
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Old September 20th, 2006, 05:01 AM
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[QUOTE=babyrocky1]No problem Schwinn...apparantly it cant be repeated often enough! LOL Calgary, Calgary, Calgary!
And as both Schwinn and I have pointed out...WE "PITTIE PEOPLE" have come up with important positive alternatives....so Cygnet I will ask YOU again as I have in other posts, if you feel so strongly that "your" ideas are best then by all means go to the governments involved in BSL and propose them as a compromise and then you might see what you are up against. If we had proposed that compromise to the Ontario Government (and Im not sure someone didnt) I would bet my LIFE that it would NOT have been accepted because THE "PIt Bull Ban" has never had anything to do with public safety in Ontario and probably not much to do with it in any place else either.
QUOTE]

It is obviously way too late for "compromise" in Ontario. You lost. Maybe you'll get a second bite of the apple as a result of the lawsuit, maybe not. (In the US, I would predict that you wouldn't win be likely to win a legal challenge to BSL, but I have no idea what your chances are in Canada).

What I am suggesting is that, whatever the pit bull community believes, this legislation was passed because it is popular and gets votes, and there is a reason it is popular. In the US (again, I can't speak to Canada) the reason pit bull bans are very popular with most of the electorate is that there are a ton of problems caused by pit bull people. (I won't say "caused by pit bulls" because you all are right that it isn't the dogs who are the problem--it is the irresponsible breeders of pit bulls that cause them to glut shelters and make headlines).

If by some miracle you somehow get the law overthrown (and not replaced immediately by something nearly identical that passes legal muster) then you still are faced with a situation where you have won the battle and lost the war. Pit bulls and their owners will become even more unpopular. You will be seen (basically) as criminals who got away with it because of a legal loophole. When the next pit bull mauling happens (and it will), the hostility will increase. Responsible people will be even LESS likely to get pit bulls and irresponsible people will be more likely to.

In short, if the situation in Canada isn't now as bad as the situation in the US for pit bulls, it will be.

If, on the other hand, there is a concensus among responsible pit bull people that breed specific laws requiring the spay/neuter of all non-show pit bulls are necessary (to protect pit bulls AND the public), and should be passed, then everybody wins. Pit bulls get levels of protection (from irresponsible breeders) that the responsible communities of other breeds can only dream about. Politicians get the satisfaction of having "done something" about pit bulls (and, amazingly, the thing that they have done will help solve the problem and protect both the public and pit bulls) and pit bull owners get the relief of not lying awake at night wondering whether there is going to be a headline in the paper the next day that will cause their beloved dog to be seized and killed. Plus, if anybody cares, the number of sweet pit bulls who suffer in horrible homes and end up dying lonely, terrified deaths at
shelters will go from a torrent to a trickle.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LM1313
To go back to an issue that cropped up several pages ago . . . the daschund rescue lists the reason each dog was turned over to them. NONE of their current dogs were turned over due to animal aggression. (I can't check on their previous dogs, obviously, as their profiles are gone.) The rescue "tests" their temperament with cats in a controlled environment (so the cats won't be hurt), which is how they know they're cat-aggressive.
Do you have a link to the rescue page? How many dachshunds were listed, total? I ask because I have talked to Jack Russell rescue people who have told me that a huge percentage of the JRTs that they get in rescue came in because of cat killing. The average dachshund is obviously less serious about and less likely to have lethal amounts of prey drive than the average JRT, (or the average pit bull) so perhaps that accounts for the difference.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
.

What I am suggesting is that, whatever the pit bull community believes, this legislation was passed because it is popular and gets votes, and there is a reason it is popular. In the US (again, I can't speak to Canada) the reason pit bull bans are very popular with most of the electorate is that there are a ton of problems caused by pit bull people. (I won't say "caused by pit bulls" because you all are right that it isn't the dogs who are the problem--it is the irresponsible breeders of pit bulls that cause them to glut shelters and make headlines).
It acutally has a lot to do with the fact that the majority of the population can't properly identify a pitbull. Dog attacks? It's a pitbull. Pitbulls are easy targets. We've had these discussions time and time again, what are you trying to get at Cygnet? The rest of us have hashed out BSL since it was propsed/we joined. The last thing we need (especially the people who are fighting REAL BSL battles -rather than just argue with you) is to have you rehash this again and again in multiple threads no less, and for you to attack the Anti-BSL proponents.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
If by some miracle you somehow get the law overthrown (and not replaced immediately by something nearly identical that passes legal muster) then you still are faced with a situation where you have won the battle and lost the war. Pit bulls and their owners will become even more unpopular. You will be seen (basically) as criminals who got away with it because of a legal loophole. When the next pit bull mauling happens (and it will), the hostility will increase. Responsible people will be even LESS likely to get pit bulls and irresponsible people will be more likely to.
I'm not sure why you want to go around and around this with people, as you seem to have have already made some big assumptions about the issue that you're not letting go of. I still suggest that instead of relying newspaper articles and internet forums, you go out and spend some actual time helping out at a rescue or org. that is fighting BSL, you might be surprised at the lack of "criminals".

You seem to have developed the idea that most "pitbull people", as you catagorize them, are infact dog fighters and criminals. My suspicion is that those elements exsist, but that the bulk of the problem, as with pet over population as a whole, is just good old irresponsible ownership, and by this I mean someone who has no particular ill intent, but just aren't on top of things. They let their dogs wander, have a litter or two, get rid of the dog when it's no longer easy to have them around. Some may even get a pitbull because it has a certain image, but that's still not the same thing as fighting or torturing a dog.

So you want to see mandatory spay/neuter for all pet pitbull, why not all pet dogs, regardless of breed? Do the unwanted litters of lab, GSD, Husky, or Rottie puppies not bother you? If you're concerned that "pitbull people" get pegged as criminals just for the dog they choose to own, would it not be better to have legislation which does not further segregate them from the rest of the dog owning population ?

I think it's clear that you are the one who sees "pitbull people" as a criminal element, and pitbulls are the domain of only dog fighters and thugs. You go so far as to refer to other forums to back up your claims, but had you spent any time there you would have seen a community that is harder working, more responsible and generous than many you'll ever encounter. It's also been my experience that although some people make nasty comments about my dogs, many, many people stop me to talk about what a bad rap they're getting. Others take the time to talk to me about the dogs of their youth, often pitbull types, that were the greatest family pets. So as much as BSL enforces people's preconcieved notions of "pitbulls" as dangerous dogs, it also brings out alot of support you might not have known was there.

Again (and again, and again...) I really suggest you spend some time in the communities you presume to judge. So many of the things you are presenting as fact are merely surface level assumptions, with little to back them up.
  #78  
Old September 20th, 2006, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
It is obviously way too late for "compromise" in Ontario. You lost. Maybe you'll get a second bite of the apple as a result of the lawsuit, maybe not. (In the US, I would predict that you wouldn't win be likely to win a legal challenge to BSL, but I have no idea what your chances are in Canada).
Strange, and what would you base that prediction on? Surely not Ohio where the courts overturned BSL, or Pennsylvania where there is a law prohibiting BSL. I doubt it was Oregon, where they looked at everything including BSL, and realized that it did not stand up to legal tests. Maybe you're thinking of Colorado, and are just forgetting that the courts there also ruled against BSL, but were then informed that that particular court has no jurisdiction over city by-laws? You must have forgot that anti-BSL supporters are now going through the proper courts. Would you be looking at the recent case in Adelaide? No, of course not. Anti-BSL won there, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
If by some miracle you somehow get the law overthrown (and not replaced immediately by something nearly identical that passes legal muster) then you still are faced with a situation where you have won the battle and lost the war. Pit bulls and their owners will become even more unpopular. You will be seen (basically) as criminals who got away with it because of a legal loophole. When the next pit bull mauling happens (and it will), the hostility will increase. Responsible people will be even LESS likely to get pit bulls and irresponsible people will be more likely to.
In the unlikely event that this court case reaches the same conclusion of every other court case You're assuming that anti-BSL people only started fighting when the BSL came in, and that they will stop once it is out. Again, you obviously don't pay attention. Most anti-BSL people have been fighting for responsible dog legislation even before the Mighty Midget screamed "BANNED! BANNED! BANNED!". That and the fact that the official opposition government has drawn up thier own legislation which we will not allow them to forget. My family has spoken to Julia Munro, and sure assures us they will not.

Oh, and most of us are not considered criminals now, except by the patently stupid, or incredibly ignorant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
If, on the other hand, there is a concensus among responsible pit bull people that breed specific laws requiring the spay/neuter of all non-show pit bulls are necessary (to protect pit bulls AND the public), and should be passed, then everybody wins.
And if we all come to concensus that there is a tooth fairy, we'll wake up with quarters under our pillows in the morning. Group concensus does not make it true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
Pit bulls get levels of protection (from irresponsible breeders) that the responsible communities of other breeds can only dream about. Politicians get the satisfaction of having "done something" about pit bulls (and, amazingly, the thing that they have done will help solve the problem and protect both the public and pit bulls) and pit bull owners get the relief of not lying awake at night wondering whether there is going to be a headline in the paper the next day that will cause their beloved dog to be seized and killed. Plus, if anybody cares, the number of sweet pit bulls who suffer in horrible homes and end up dying lonely, terrified deaths at
shelters will go from a torrent to a trickle.
You mean like in the case of responsible dog ownership laws? I'd love a place like that, where all dogs (not just pitbulls) are protected from cruel individuals, and dog attacks (not just pitbulls) are greatly reduced. Something that would lower the number of animals dying in shelters. I think I'd call that place, "Calgary".

As I said, nice looking car. Not much power under the hood, though.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
I ask because I have talked to Jack Russell rescue people who have told me that a huge percentage of the JRTs that they get in rescue came in because of cat killing. The average dachshund is obviously less serious about and less likely to have lethal amounts of prey drive than the average JRT, (or the average pit bull) so perhaps that accounts for the difference.

Pardon me yet again, but "huge percentage"? Are we talking a majority? How many JRT rescues are included in this statement? Yet again, we've got gross generalities and absolutely no hard facts. I've yet to see a small working dog that doesn't have a prey drive, given most of the terrier breeds were bred for ratting (rat = prey), or other vermin control (rabbits, gophers, etc.) and that includes doxies. You need to research your breeds and what they were originally intended for before you assess prey drive/targets from one to the next, before positing personal bias as expert opinion.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitgrrl
a couple of links:

Ontario hansard:

http://www.ontla.on.ca/hansard/commi...embly/M009.htm

Calgary model vs. Ontario bill 132:

http://www.bdnhumanesociety.com/calgary_solution.htm
Thank you sooo much Pitgrrrl.....Cygnet PLEASE read this before you continue to post!

I will give you one more point...if we do have the law overturned I believe you are correct in the assumption that we will have a HUGE problem with media AGAIN...we must be ready to educate the public properly so that they understand what we have proposed and why.

We will have to take on the responsibility of immmediately turning the discussion towards proper alternatives. This is a difficult thing to do because people prefer "good clip" rather than indepth understanding of an issue. Obviously if the general public is like you we will have an uphill batttle as you are REFUSING to comprehend what we are saying to you.

Countless people have asked you to do the research that we have done in order to really understand the dynamic that has played out in Ontario and has most definately been modelled in other places.

The general public, at one time, was clamering for a "pit bull ban" but we did make alot of headway with the media considering our relatively small numbers and lack of resources. We have alot of media on our side now and the attorney general who once thought he would look like a hero has been exposed as the publicity hound that he is and bill 132 is the product of that.
While he has been busy banning "pit bulls" which he has made his reputation on, real crime has flourished under his watch so the comparisons of his inaction on real crime ex. gun violence etc, compared to his daily speeches about pit bulls has not been lost on the people of Ontario!

Yes there is a problem with BYB and if there are not mandatory sp/ nueter laws for all dogs and breeding is not regulated there will be more BYBs of other breeds and the problem will magnify.
As the streets of Toronto and other cities in Ontario become more and more violent, (one of the real problems in Ontario) there will be more and more dogs bred to be vicious....so the fault lies with the government for refusing to enact good dog legislation and unfortunately the responsibility will still be passed to us to explain to the public what good legislation is.
WE WILL RISE TO THE TASK!!! Do you really think we dont know this and we needed YOU to point that out??? GEEEEZ!
We can see how hard it will be by how this conversation is going with you. We want laws like the ones in Calgary. Yet you spend all this time arguing with us and NOT reading it!

When I suggested you take your compromise to governments I did not mean Ontario, I was talking about governments in your own vicinity, if thats what you believe then what are YOU doing about it??? How many times have you been asked that question and ones similar to that??? Pitgrrl has suggested you spend sometime working with rescues to see for yourself...any response????

BTW Peter Kormos MPP, did, as I remember, ask in committee if sp/nueter especially nueter cuts down on dog aggression. He was told it did and he asked why we couldnt just do that...I dont believe he was given an answer by the government, but there you go, it was brought up....does that make you happy?
As with all of the other suggestions it was dismissed because it wouldnt be sensational enough for headlines!!!!!!!!!! Thats what we face...Michael BRyant wanted sensationalised headlines and thats what he got!!! I cant believe were still going through this over and over and over and over......... palease I need the smiley that bangs its head against the wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Last edited by babyrocky1; September 20th, 2006 at 11:44 AM.
  #81  
Old September 20th, 2006, 02:43 PM
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Great posts Schwinn, Babyrocky, Jawert and Pitgrrl.
  #82  
Old September 20th, 2006, 07:26 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitgrrl
I'm not sure why you want to go around and around this with people, as you seem to have have already made some big assumptions about the issue that you're not letting go of. I still suggest that instead of relying newspaper articles and internet forums, you go out and spend some actual time helping out at a rescue or org. that is fighting BSL, you might be surprised at the lack of "criminals".

You seem to have developed the idea that most "pitbull people", as you catagorize them, are infact dog fighters and criminals. My suspicion is that those elements exsist, but that the bulk of the problem, as with pet over population as a whole, is just good old irresponsible ownership, and by this I mean someone who has no particular ill intent, but just aren't on top of things. They let their dogs wander, have a litter or two, get rid of the dog when it's no longer easy to have them around. Some may even get a pitbull because it has a certain image, but that's still not the same thing as fighting or torturing a dog.

So you want to see mandatory spay/neuter for all pet pitbull, why not all pet dogs, regardless of breed? Do the unwanted litters of lab, GSD, Husky, or Rottie puppies not bother you? If you're concerned that "pitbull people" get pegged as criminals just for the dog they choose to own, would it not be better to have legislation which does not further segregate them from the rest of the dog owning population ?

I think it's clear that you are the one who sees "pitbull people" as a criminal element, and pitbulls are the domain of only dog fighters and thugs. You go so far as to refer to other forums to back up your claims, but had you spent any time there you would have seen a community that is harder working, more responsible and generous than many you'll ever encounter. It's also been my experience that although some people make nasty comments about my dogs, many, many people stop me to talk about what a bad rap they're getting. Others take the time to talk to me about the dogs of their youth, often pitbull types, that were the greatest family pets. So as much as BSL enforces people's preconcieved notions of "pitbulls" as dangerous dogs, it also brings out alot of support you might not have known was there.

Again (and again, and again...) I really suggest you spend some time in the communities you presume to judge. So many of the things you are presenting as fact are merely surface level assumptions, with little to back them up.
pitgrrl,

I am not sure where you are getting that I am saying that "most pit bull people are criminals." I suggest (as you note) that laws be passed mandating that non-show dog (and perhaps add health screens) pit bulls be spayed/neutered. This would CLEARLY be good for pit bulls, which currently glut most urban shelters because of incredibly irresponsible overbreeding. About the only thing that pit bull people say against such a law is that it wouldn't work, and people wouldn't obey it. Huh? To me, that seems translate that you all are saying that pit bull people are criminals. I, on the other hand, believe that if a law is passed mandating the spay/neuter of pet quality pit bulls, probably a whole lot of (most?) pit bull people will get their dogs spayed/neutered because they are not criminals and therefore they obey the law. Right?

You certainly don't believe that all those pit bulls dying in shelters are ALL being bred by criminals, do you?

I'm not going to fight against breed specific legislation, because I am in favor of breed specific legislation. I think it represents the only realistic chance that pit bulls have for survival.

Again, the fact that there are unwanted rotties and labradors dying in shelters doesn't mean that one should be AGAINST breed specific legislation that helps pit bulls. Maybe you wish it also protected labs and rotties, but hey, get what you can. Plus, of course, pit bulls face far worse if somehting isn't done. There isn't anyplace where labs are being seized from their owners and killed just because of their breed.


There is actually a rational basis for treating pit bulls differently than any other breed. They are FAR AND AWAY where the worst problems are (in the US, at least). There is no shelter where the canine population is 65% labradors or rotties or where 60% of the labradors/rotties fail the temperament tests. You Aunt Mildred's pomeranian isn't making headlines. The pomeranian's puppies are not being killed at the shelter. I know it hurts the feelings of pit bull people that laws aren't going to be passed controlling her dog breeding, but honestly, you all need to stop thinking about your hurt feelings and start thinking about what is hurting pit bulls. It is, sadly, pit bull breeders. They need to be controlled and they won't be controlled without laws.

Last edited by White Wolf; September 20th, 2006 at 07:30 PM. Reason: edited the inappropriate analogy out
  #83  
Old September 20th, 2006, 07:46 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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[QUOTE=Schwinn]Strange, and what would you base that prediction on? Surely not Ohio where the courts overturned BSL, or Pennsylvania where there is a law prohibiting BSL. I doubt it was Oregon, where they looked at everything including BSL, and realized that it did not stand up to legal tests. Maybe you're thinking of Colorado, and are just forgetting that the courts there also ruled against BSL, but were then informed that that particular court has no jurisdiction over city by-laws? You must have forgot that anti-BSL supporters are now going through the proper courts. Would you be looking at the recent case in Adelaide? No, of course not. Anti-BSL won there, too.
QUOTE]

Unless I missed something, the Ohio case is on currently on appeal, unfortunately to the Ohio Supreme Court which has previously declined to overturn Ohio's statewide restrictions on pit bulls. It is certainly possible that they might reverse themselves, but I wouldn't bet on it.

You aren't correct about what happened in Colorado, I don't believe. Actually what happened there was that the State Legislature passed a law saying that there couldn't be breed bans and the City of Denver (they [B]really[B] like their pit bull ban) went to court and challenged it and the court said that the State couldn't tell the City of Denver that it couldn't ban pit bulls.

Of course, a number of states (I think ten or eleven) have (or had) laws prohibiting breed specific laws. However, to my knowledge, these are all laws, not constitutional provisions and what the legislature giveth, the legislature can take away, as pit bull owners in California just found out when California specifically changed their law to allow for breed specific legislation in the wake of a particularly bad pit bull attack.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "anti-BSL supporters are now going through the proper courts." If you mean to imply that breed specific legislation is just now being challenged in court for the first time, that is totally wrong. There have been challenges to breed specific legislation (and outright breed bans) in many different states, the vast majority of which have failed.

By the way, if I were an appellate judge hearing a breed ban case, I would probably hold that breed bans were unconstitutionally vague at least when used to generate criminal charges against people who don't acknowledge that their dogs are pit bulls. Courts haven't seen it that way, generally, since the void for vagueness argument has been tried over and over and has been rejected. Too bad for you guys that I am not an appellate judge...
  #84  
Old September 20th, 2006, 07:47 PM
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this web site is called pets.CA........ca meaning canada.........and most pit owners on here are in ontario.......you keep harping about spay\neuter......we all have done that......and i bet all of us before the ban. you seem to quote us statistics(that youdon't really back up with any real proof from a legitimate source....and you have still not told us what credentials you have that qualify you as an all round animal expert........can't you find an american site to preach your pro-bsl\anti pit rant too,as you are clearly american.
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  #85  
Old September 20th, 2006, 07:47 PM
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Cygnet we are not asking you to fight BSL as you obviously have repeatedly told us you beilieve in "your own version of BSL" so we are suggesting that you approach governments considering BANS and fight for YOUR version of BSL. (we know how far this will get you) Also it has been suggested that you do some work with rescues, you have not chosen to comment on that either. We have told you what we are doing to try and help, but you have refused to answer the question about what YOU are doing.

In Canada Pit Bulls score EXTREMELY high in temperment testing...again those stats are here. Have you READ HANSARD YET or THE CALGARY Laws????

ONE MORE TIME...this is what we are advocating so please read it before any futher comments about how emotional we all are and how only you have the answers and for some mysterious reason dont want to share your profound wisdom with those in power, you prefer to continually tell us about it!
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  #86  
Old September 20th, 2006, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet

Unless I missed something, the Ohio case is on currently on appeal, unfortunately to the Ohio Supreme Court which has previously declined to overturn Ohio's statewide restrictions on pit bulls. It is certainly possible that they might reverse themselves, but I wouldn't bet on it.
You did. It's been overturned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
You aren't correct about what happened in Colorado, I don't believe. Actually what happened there was that the State Legislature passed a law saying that there couldn't be breed bans and the City of Denver (they [B]really[B] like their pit bull ban) went to court and challenged it and the court said that the State couldn't tell the City of Denver that it couldn't ban pit bulls.
Well, you'd believe wrong, then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "anti-BSL supporters are now going through the proper courts." If you mean to imply that breed specific legislation is just now being challenged in court for the first time, that is totally wrong. There have been challenges to breed specific legislation (and outright breed bans) in many different states, the vast majority of which have failed.
Again, you'd be wrong. The vast majority of court challenges to BSL have found in favour of the anti-BSL factions. Unfortunatly, you've been choosing to quote from the Big Book of Stats I've Pulled from My Butt. You've given made up numbers, scenarios that don't exist, and even after you've been presented with evidence to the contrary (have you looked at Calgary yet?), you choosen to further prove your ignorance. I don't mean to be rude here, but I think I speak for a lot of individuals when I say that the frustration arises in that you aren't debating, you're re-iterating a position that has already been proven, for the most part, to not be true. Anyone who has done a modecrum of research sees that you have not. You state that there are no alternatives, we've given you several examples of successful alternatives. You've stated that there is a major pitbull problem, we've given evidence as to why that is only percieved and not fact. You've stated that we only see pitbulls, and want to defeat BSL, when we've stated, and shown, we want responsible ownership laws. We're concerned about abuse of all dogs, responsible breeding of all dogs, and punishing those who would fight any breed (especially since we are already seeing the pitbull losing ground in popularity to another breed, the Dogo Argentina). Your solutions do nothing for Courtney Tremp, the child in North Bay, the two examples given by the Mighty Midget (which he incorrectly stated were pitbulls), or my sister who lost half her lip (which is ironic, considering she is the only person I know who has ever came close to having thier face ripped off. I keep hearing people talk about pitbulls ripping kids faces off, but I haven't seen one yet). I could list many, many others within Ontario, and it would dwarf any list you could give me from any one state or province.

No, my friend. Our frustration doesn't come from being defensive, it comes from trying to argue with a brick wall who argues conjecture, phantom stats, and, with each post, further proves that has not done enough significant research to enter into meaningful dialogue. That, and refuses to listen to the other side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
Too bad for you guys that I am not an appellate judge...
I'd say society in general should be thankful. They're required to review actual facts and stats.
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  #87  
Old September 20th, 2006, 08:21 PM
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jesse's mommy jesse's mommy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet
Too bad for you guys that I am not an appellate judge...
Do you actually think people would vote for you? Please, judges need to be objective and open. Unfortunately you are neither.

You seriously need to open your mind and learn something before you speak here. Us "Pitty People" (as you state over and over again) are here to stay and will continue to fight for pitty's and all breeds that are in danger of having a ban put on them. It's such a shame that you think this is an interesting debate, but in actuality you are just making yourself look like a fool with your false facts and accusations.

This started out as a reasonable thread commenting on a letter to the editor of the Gazette and you turned it into your own motives again. Go preach to someone who will listen.
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  #88  
Old September 20th, 2006, 08:39 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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[QUOTE=Schwinn]You did. It's been overturned.



QUOTE]

Jeeze Schwinn, now you've done it. You made me actually go do some legal research. You claim that I somehow missed the decision of the Ohio Supreme Court overturning breed specific legislation in the case of City of Toledo v. Tellings. Alas, you are wrong.

Go here: http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/clerk_...senumber%2Easp

to see the docket entries in this case. It hasn't even been briefed or argued yet. There was a motion for a stay of execution filed by the City of Toledo that was granted. The effect of this is to leave all the previous breed specific laws in place pending this appeal. Mr. Tellings (arguing against the breed specific legislation) asked to lift that stay. His motion to lift the stay was denied.

Again, this is not to say that the Ohio Supreme Court won't reverse itself. However, you are quite wrong to claim that they already have.
  #89  
Old September 20th, 2006, 08:50 PM
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Schwinn Schwinn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnet

Jeeze Schwinn, now you've done it. You made me actually go do some legal research.
First time for everything.

However, here is a copy of the actual decision of the court.

http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/ne...6-ohio-975.pdf

I'll make it easy. Last page where it states JUDGEMENT REVERSED
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  #90  
Old September 20th, 2006, 08:54 PM
Cygnet Cygnet is offline
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[QUOTE=Schwinn]



Again, you'd be wrong. The vast majority of court challenges to BSL have found in favour of the anti-BSL factions. Unfortunatly, you've been choosing to quote from the Big Book of Stats I've Pulled from My Butt.



[QUOTE]

Not according to 80 ALR 4th 70. That article notes that in the US, most breed bans have been upheld. Can you cite to any LEGAL (as opposed to pit bull people telling each other what they want to hear and believe) article that disputes that finding?

Again, this isn't to say that is how it should be. But if the pit bull community believes things that aren't so about the legal climate (such as your claim that the Ohio Supreme Court has already overturned Ohio BSL...) then they can't really see the issue as it is. Not facing reality is not helpful to anybody, frankly.
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