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Calcium, how to tell what's enough.....
Maybe a bizarre question, but those of you who feed raw, do you figure out if your dog is getting enough calcium (bone, egg shell, bone meal, whatever you use.....) by calculations or do you judge by what the poop looks like?
I'm just making some changes to my dog's diets and the theoretically balanced calcium content is resulting in crumbly, white-ish poop, which isn't so great. As it stands they're eating 50% meat/veggie mix with ground eggshell and 50% meat/bone, but maybe I should just omit the eggshell |
#2
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I don't feed raw but I do know that too much bone causes whitish crumbly poop.
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#3
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Yup, I know that, maybe I wasn't clear. Thank you though rainbow.
What I mean is, if according to your calculations you've balanced the bone/meat content, but the poop tells you you've got too much bone goin' on, do you go by the poop or the calculations? |
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Our gals and guy get approx. 65% meat, 5% organs, 5% veggies, and 25% bone. I'm one to listen to what the poop tells me . If I notice it's too white/powdery, I just recollect the ratio of their last meal and adjust the next time I feed them the same thing.
I love feeding chicken best. I just buy it whole, approx. 3-3 1/2 lbs each, have them cut in halves, and feed a half per dog adding a chicken liver and giblets. Perfect poop every time .
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Sorry....I knew I should have stayed out of here. |
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No, no, I was happy someone replied regardless...
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#7
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This probably isn't going to be much help because I have a cat and I don't feed him any veggies except as treats, but... I find the easiest way to keep the meat:bone ratio in check is to feed whole prey (in my case, chicken or turkey). He doesn't eat the leg bones so I throw in an egg every now and then. His poop seems to be perfect, but maybe I'm just lucky. (Does anyone else get made fun of by their friends for paying so much attention to their pet's poop? )
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#8
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you know, we have kids so more than our pets poop gets attention on this end!!!
is the poo coming out white and crumbly?? ive always figured if the poo doesnt get crunchy until a day or so later then his calcium is just fine. a raw fed is suppose to GET crunchy. i would feed in a whole prey model in the sense that a whole chicken is balanced, a whole fish is balanced and the rest will work itself out. i should be getting some lab work done on Mister in the next month or so and then we will see if thats enough, too much or too little. -ashley
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Pastafarians Unite! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM Swift Tribe- Chris- Husband, 04/30/77 Cailyn- Daughter, 07/05/99 Jeffrey- Son, 03/24/06 Alex- Son, 03/25/09 Mister- Black LabX, M, 08/06(?) The Shadow Stalker- Gray Tux DSH, M, 04/04 The Mighty Hunter- Black Tux DSH, M, 04/04 Baby Girl- Tabby DMH, F, 12/03(?) Frances- Tortie, DSH, F, 2007(?) |
#9
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It's comign out crumbly, clearly too much bone.
I think the problem is maybe that everything I read is telling me to feed some muscle meat/veggie meals and some meat/bone meals, but it seems like the meat/bone meals don't have enough padding, if that makes any sense. So instead of getting consistent poop, I get some that are overly boney and others that are overly soft. Maybe I need to mix the meat/bone with the veggie/meat for each meal? |
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what are you feeding for the meat and bones parts??
we have had perfect poops with the whole chicken idea. the whole chicken should have enough of a balance. if it doesnt, when you feed meat, cut back a touch (weight for weight maybe??) and add an egg or two without the shells? if its coming OUT crumbly then yes, it is much too much calcium, or maybe not enough meat?? shelless eggs should help with that. or you could take the back bone out of the chicken? i would think thought, that adding eggs without their shells should have a huge impact. id start with adding an egg at a time and seeing if that doesnt change the poo. can you give me an example of a weeks worth of food?? -ashley
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Pastafarians Unite! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM Swift Tribe- Chris- Husband, 04/30/77 Cailyn- Daughter, 07/05/99 Jeffrey- Son, 03/24/06 Alex- Son, 03/25/09 Mister- Black LabX, M, 08/06(?) The Shadow Stalker- Gray Tux DSH, M, 04/04 The Mighty Hunter- Black Tux DSH, M, 04/04 Baby Girl- Tabby DMH, F, 12/03(?) Frances- Tortie, DSH, F, 2007(?) |
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for example Misters weeks (which have changed a little since we started adding back non meat stuff a few months ago)
monday salmon and sardines and rice tuesday ground beef with a touch of beef liver and maybe some eggs wednesday oatmeal (or cheerios) with 'mixed veggies' cooked and a touch of flax seed crushed and yogurt and an egg or two thursday 1/2 whole chicken friday the weeks left overs (heel of bread, whats left of the yogurt/cottage cheese/sour cream, bottom of the cereal, what we have saved from dinners the last few days, some fresh veggies like carrots and celery) saturday gizzards, leftover cat chicken and chicken liver sunday other half whole chicken only on the days he has NO meat and bones he has stinkey looser poos but on meat days they come out like perfect logs and then crumble after they dry out. some weeks are heavier on meats, some weeks are lighter on them. this is a middle ground meat example. many of the other things i feed him also have a great deal of protein/calcium/phos such as the cheese and peanutbutter and the eggs. -ash
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Pastafarians Unite! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM Swift Tribe- Chris- Husband, 04/30/77 Cailyn- Daughter, 07/05/99 Jeffrey- Son, 03/24/06 Alex- Son, 03/25/09 Mister- Black LabX, M, 08/06(?) The Shadow Stalker- Gray Tux DSH, M, 04/04 The Mighty Hunter- Black Tux DSH, M, 04/04 Baby Girl- Tabby DMH, F, 12/03(?) Frances- Tortie, DSH, F, 2007(?) |
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Here's the issue, both my dogs, but one to a much more sever degree, have GI issues. Fun with littermates, woohoo.
Anyways, this means that I need to grind everything and that I need to keep their daily diet pretty consistent from day to day, meaning that I need to incorporate variety into each meal, not over the period of a week or month. I realize this flies in the face of general raw feeding knowledge, but trust me, years of dealing with this has led to these conclusions. So, because of time I use NV pre-made raw for part of their diet, but on it's own it's too bone heavy and needs some sort of supplementation. I was using another raw mix (you add eggs, meats, etc.), and everything was great, but they went and messed with their ingredients, so it doesn't agree with my dogs anymore. I started making a veggie/meat (muscle and organs or eggs, rotating) instead, but I don't seem to have the combo down. I'm getting some poop which is soft and dark and then others which is white and crumbly. Because of this I'm thinking maybe it's the feeding schedule, not the food? This is what I was doing: AM-Veggie/meat meal PM-NV pre-made raw (which is 95% meat/organ/bone) before bed-veggie/meat snack Should I maybe instead just combine both foods for each meal? I'm seriously being driven insane trying to figure this out. |
#13
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-ashley
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Pastafarians Unite! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM Swift Tribe- Chris- Husband, 04/30/77 Cailyn- Daughter, 07/05/99 Jeffrey- Son, 03/24/06 Alex- Son, 03/25/09 Mister- Black LabX, M, 08/06(?) The Shadow Stalker- Gray Tux DSH, M, 04/04 The Mighty Hunter- Black Tux DSH, M, 04/04 Baby Girl- Tabby DMH, F, 12/03(?) Frances- Tortie, DSH, F, 2007(?) |
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another thought, maybe it doesnt have enough fat in it. from what i understand the fat is what keeps things moving. thats why dogs get the runs when eating turkey or pork. you SHOULD be able to get fat back from the grocer. we can here but you know how these southern folk are..... anyway, you can take a little bit of that (no more than a table spoon, maybe less) and try feeding that to up the fat content a little?
also, maybe its that you are feeding the meat and others at the same time? if you could feed one in the morning and the other in the evening? do you feed any supplements? -ashley
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Pastafarians Unite! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM Swift Tribe- Chris- Husband, 04/30/77 Cailyn- Daughter, 07/05/99 Jeffrey- Son, 03/24/06 Alex- Son, 03/25/09 Mister- Black LabX, M, 08/06(?) The Shadow Stalker- Gray Tux DSH, M, 04/04 The Mighty Hunter- Black Tux DSH, M, 04/04 Baby Girl- Tabby DMH, F, 12/03(?) Frances- Tortie, DSH, F, 2007(?) |
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They can't eat grains, at all, none, zippo, big bloated, bloody liquid poop disaster zone. Lovely, huh? Oh, and one of them had a mast cell tumor removed, so that's just another reason not to add grain.
The stuff I was using to make them food went from using sweet potatoes to just straight up raw potatoes, which I think is a crock, quite frankly. They are fine with different meats, as long as it's not lamb. The meat/veggie mix is actually, muscle meat, organs or eggs, rotating herbs and supplements like carob, lecithin, etc. and a puree of veggies, mostly greens. All these ingredients I know they're fine with, along with the fish oil and joint supplements I give. The pre-made raw I give is essentially like ground up meat and bones with 5% veggies, but on it's own it's too much bone, hence needing to add another component to their diet. With chicken, the skin gets left on, so I'd think they were getting enough fat. I'm really starting to think I'm just not getting the right combo, since I'm getting soft poop from the veggie/meat meals and crumbly poop from the pre-made meals, so maybe I should combine? |
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I add veggies to my dogs pre-ground raw meat/bone. Lucy especially (as she ages) needs the veggies to prevent constipation. Plus she has a tendency to put on weight very easily so the veggies are a good stretcher to make her meal a bit bigger.
I wouldn't be using any veggie mix that uses regular raw potatoes . Sweet potatoes are fine .
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#17
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perhaps! i would do that first since its the easiest thing to do. my only other suggestion would be to split up the veggie/fruit mix from the meat. are you feeding any dairy?
have you had any labs run on them to make sure they are getting enough of everything? iw oudl also have them check their blood calcium and see if it really is too much calcium and not something else. -ashley
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Pastafarians Unite! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM Swift Tribe- Chris- Husband, 04/30/77 Cailyn- Daughter, 07/05/99 Jeffrey- Son, 03/24/06 Alex- Son, 03/25/09 Mister- Black LabX, M, 08/06(?) The Shadow Stalker- Gray Tux DSH, M, 04/04 The Mighty Hunter- Black Tux DSH, M, 04/04 Baby Girl- Tabby DMH, F, 12/03(?) Frances- Tortie, DSH, F, 2007(?) |
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I don't think their blood calcium would be effected yet, it's only been 2 days that I'm trying this new mix of food, I think I just don't have all the kinks worked out yet. |
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oh poo (haha!) woman, i thought you were having long term problems feeding this way!!! heck yeah id just mix the two up. im sure that will work just fine and if it doesnt, go from there. splitting things up may work if just mixing them together doesnt.
-ash
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Pastafarians Unite! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM Swift Tribe- Chris- Husband, 04/30/77 Cailyn- Daughter, 07/05/99 Jeffrey- Son, 03/24/06 Alex- Son, 03/25/09 Mister- Black LabX, M, 08/06(?) The Shadow Stalker- Gray Tux DSH, M, 04/04 The Mighty Hunter- Black Tux DSH, M, 04/04 Baby Girl- Tabby DMH, F, 12/03(?) Frances- Tortie, DSH, F, 2007(?) |
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yeah, I'm a control freak maniac when it comes to the dogs, it needs to work, and it needs to work NOW...........otherwise I stay up at night reading dog nutrition books and then I'm all cranky the next day. I think I need help.
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[QUOTE=pitgrrl;526541]Here's the issue, both my dogs, but one to a much more sever degree, have GI issues. Fun with littermates, woohoo.
Anyways, this means that I need to grind everything and that I need to keep their daily diet pretty consistent from day to day, meaning that I need to incorporate variety into each meal, not over the period of a week or month. Ok, I'm going to offer you the following 'food for thought'. If you are getting frustrated trying to figure all this out, I'd like to suggest that you follow prey model raw, rather than what you are doing now. Prey model raw, means you go to your fridge, pull out some meat and give it to your dog. - there is no grinding - no mincing - no supplementing We have been feeding this way for some time now, and hands down it beats all other methods of raw feeding, and is certainly by far less frustrating and tedious. the diet follows the appropriate 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% offal. There is no added vegetables or anything else. When I started raw I had a grinder, ground everything added all kinds of vegetables that had to be pureed. That was 10 years ago. I don't do that any more because I've learn via the Lonsdale method that it's not necessary to achieve quality nutrition. There is a good site of recipes at: www.rawfed.net and good information at www.rawlearning.com If you find that you dog's stools are white, grey or crumbly then there is far too much bone in the diet. If you stick to the above ratio you can never go wrong, and if you stick to species appropriate foods, you can also never go wrong. Best of luck |
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Thanks for the info. Essentially, I do follow a prey model ratio of meat/bone/organ, I just happen to grind it and add bit of vegetable. The supplements are, to some degree necessary for one dog's hips and the other dog's GI system. I've certainly tried leaving them out, but the dogs do better when they're included.
The bone issue I've sorted out, it was just a bit of impatience on my part really. |
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What kind of GI issues do they have?
Essentially if they do, vegetables are even more less desirable then, as they contain too much roughage, are high in sugar which can also act as irritants. The bone you can always eliminate entirely and serve calcium powder or pills, but ground meat is not any better digested than whole meat. That is a myth entirely just so you know. We've had rescues here with entirely rotted out mouths, Chrone's disease, sloppy bowel syndrome, bacteria laden gut, even ulcerated, and we've never had to grind our food and the worse case scenario we've scene did improve. It took quite a while, (almost a year), but it did improve to the point she was literally perfect. Of course we were not able to replace the teeth or jaw parts, but she did go on to become extremely healthy. We have one here now with only 4 teeth left in her mouth and I can give her a large piece of meat. It takes her time, which it should, but she manages very well to rip, tear and chew. Bone included. Best of luck to you.
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www.MerlinsHope.com Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 23rd, 2008 at 08:07 AM. Reason: spelling corrections |
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Sorry for going of track here,
But Ya'll Talk about Grinding the meat and Bones, I have an old table top grinder but I would think it to hard to use for bones? being hand done and all. I have used one for grinding all types of meats for yrs, but never really thought of trying bones in one, Curious what you all use to grind the bones with, Do you use an old table top, screw on type or something different for Bones? |
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He has colitis (used to be sever, now seems 99% under control) and some sort of weird acid reflux type thing that no vet seems to be able to properly diagnose.
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Green Tripe
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Green Tripe FAQ's http://www.clubequestre.com/health/Y...num=1196290964 You can purchase it in cans now. There are two companies which can it, (if you don't want to do raw green tripe) Tripette and Solid Gold. Pitgirl, if your dog has colitis, personally I would avoid all and any dairy products whatsoever and any vegetable matter, because as mentioned, it offers alot of roughage and sugars that your dog does not need. (my opinion only of course) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MEAT GRINDER - Chicklet I'm laughing at the picture. My Grandmother had one of those and I can remember as a small child helping her on Saturday mornings make sausauges. I guess if the bones are small enough , that grinder in the picture would most probably do some bones. The grinder that I purchased at the time, we ridiculously expensive but it was effective in doing larger bones. I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore anyways, because at the time all raw feeders needed two grinders... one for meats, and one to juice vegetable matter. PS: If vegetables are not juiced, not just pureed, but juiced, there is no nutritional advantage for the dog. Dogs lack the enzymes necessary to break down plant cellulose, that is why I'm saying that when you add vegetables to your dog's food, generally speaking you are wasting your time. They do however, have the capcity to absorb the sugars in fruits and vegetables, pureed or not, and those sugars are definitely harmful in large amounts. Best
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