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  #61  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:24 AM
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Yes, Lindy was innocent, I'm merely pointing out that so many thought she was not. These mothers have to go through enough without all this on top of it. I'll bet poor Lindy wishes she had never left her baby alone .
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  #62  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:30 AM
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i have to say Goldfields,,Lindy Chamberlain is an excellent example here..She was totally railroaded and was tried by the media. In this case not knowing what the police know i guess making any real choice on what should happen to the mom shoule be put on the back burner until the rest of the story comes out.

lol, i'm one of those odd people that just reads everything for the sake of reading and knew all the case info on LC..
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  #63  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:35 AM
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I'm on the fence what to do with the dogs.

I would like the dogs to go through a complete evaultion, blood and temperment to see if their a danger to society, what are the chances of them doing this again or even biting.

I think the owner of the huskies is just as responsible as the ignornant mother. He should have never put his dogs in a situation they couldn't handle. He must have known, his dogs weren't good with kids or babies. Or they were unpredictable. Yet, he put them in a home with a baby. Totally irresponsible pet owner.

I have a husky mix, she's HORRIBLE with kids and I would NEVER ever trust her in a home with kids or babies. I have to protect my dog againest herself, which the owner of these dogs neglected to do.

Plus the dogs have ran away from him many times, roamed the neighbourhood. Not the best pet owner and he shouldn't have any dogs or have these dogs back.

I agree, man slaughter charges are extreme, but I think neglect is too soft. I don't know what the right answer is, I doubt there's one. A baby got bruality killed by dogs...someone needs to take responsibilty for that.

Last edited by poodletalk; June 9th, 2010 at 10:43 AM.
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  #64  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:51 AM
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poodletalk, glad you feel as I do about the owners of the dogs. We do have to protect our dogs and they failed theirs miserably.
Aslan, what a mess that made of the Chamberlains' lives, hey? At least not many people were screaming about charging her for negligence, they were too busy charging her with murder. I always thought a dingo quite capable seeing I had a big male cattle dog at the time which traced back to a kennel where the breeder didn't mind saying that there wasn't a dog in his kennels that didn't have dingo within 3 generations. He bred both dingoes and cattle dogs and obviously crossed them. Not known to me when I bought my pup of course. Anyway, my bloke was big enough and probably feral enough to take a baby and he had a bit of a nasty streak. Easy for me to imagine that rotten dingo killing Azaria.
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  #65  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:54 AM
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sweet innocent baby
The laws will decide the rest.........
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  #66  
Old June 9th, 2010, 10:56 AM
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I agree, man slaughter charges are extreme, but I think neglect is too soft. I don't know what the right answer is, I doubt there's one. A baby got bruality killed by dogs...someone needs to take responsibilty for that.
Albeit a terrible stupid accident - this still seems like an accident and the mother is responsible for the accident.

responsibility....hmmmm - I'm not sure what that means here, I think we are talking about 'justice' here but WHO is the justice for? Is it for we the public? Is it for the baby? Can we give the baby justice by locking up the mother?

or are we so outraged that we just want someone to pay in an effort that this will encourage others not to make horrible stupid mistakes? Will it even work?
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  #67  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:11 AM
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You cannot go past the fact that if the owners had locked their dogs up, this would not have happened.
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  #68  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by marko View Post
I hate to give a firm opinion on whether the dog(s) should be put down, but history is the best predictor of future actions...so if they DID discover which exact dog is responsible...by putting this dog down, it's impossible for history to ever repeat itself.

Playing Devil's advocate here - If I am understanding this statement right you are saying the dog(s) killed once so may kill again. Is that right? If so - one name for you - Michael Vick. Is it not true some of his dogs have been rehabilitated? They for sure tasted blood more than once.
Sorry to be off topic but - besides the fact one case had dogs, this one had a baby; not much difference in my eyes. If they thought dogs that had been through that much abuse and horrific situations could be rehabed then what's the difference in this case? Dogs fault? The only one who will ever know what happened in that room is God. The little one is gone and the dogs can't talk. JMO
Like I said - Devil's advocate. I myself am not sure what to do with the dogs. I would hate to be in that position. Having been a single teen mom at 18 I would never, ever have left my child in that position. Should the mom have to face penalties - sure shooting. Again - JMO
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  #69  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:27 AM
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I don't see these cases as being the same at all. In the Vick case the dogs were the victims. Here the victim is a baby and the mother is also a victim of her own irresponsibility/stupidity/neglect/mistake. COMPLETELY different imo.
(I'm going to leave this thread for a while....but I'll read it with interest later today)
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Last edited by marko; June 9th, 2010 at 11:33 AM.
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  #70  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Albeit a terrible stupid accident - this still seems like an accident and the mother is responsible for the accident.

responsibility....hmmmm - I'm not sure what that means here, I think we are talking about 'justice' here but WHO is the justice for? Is it for we the public? Is it for the baby? Can we give the baby justice by locking up the mother?

or are we so outraged that we just want someone to pay in an effort that this will encourage others not to make horrible stupid mistakes? Will it even work?
totally have to disagree with your first statement..by your logic,,you get in a car accident and kill someone in the other car,,,oooops it's an accident so you should get off with a slap on the wrist..JMO,,if you are taking taking the responsibility of another in your hands, then YES you are responsible for the results. If you kill someone with your car through negligence then yes you should be charged, just as this woman/young adult had the responsibility of looking after her helpless child..

14+,,i would probably totally trust ANY of MV's dogs with a person,,,i would never in my life totally trust it with another dog as this is what they were trained to kill. Pitties by the norm are not people agressive and these dogs weren't trained to attack humans. Wouldn't leave them alone with a baby either tho..

Goldfields,,gotta say after reading all the info on LC,,you guys have a totally different legal system than we do. the whole bit about the defence not being allowed to test evidence or see the crowns evidence for the second trial is ummm interesting to say the least.
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  #71  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:35 AM
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The owner of the dogs need to take responsibilty of failing his dogs miserably and the brutal killing of the baby.

The mother needs to take responsibilty for the bruital killing of her baby that could have been 100% prevented.
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  #72  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:36 AM
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I guess I'm in the minority here...I think a manslaughter charge is way way way too harsh and inappropriate. These people made a terrible mistake and this mother's child is now dead because of this mistake. For me, this mistake is far closer to 'neglect' than 'manslaughter' and the charge should reflect this.

Let's be real - we've seen occasional cases in recent years of mothers deliberately killing their children (MORE horrific, yes?) and the charge is often manslaughter based on the mother's state of mind.

This was a mistake; stupid and terrible yes. But a mistake that ended in a terrible tragedy and the mother is already suffering because of this....I'd be much more in favour of a charge that has neglect in its title, not manslaughter.

I hate to give a firm opinion on whether the dog(s) should be put down, but history is the best predictor of future actions...so if they DID discover which exact dog is responsible...by putting this dog down, it's impossible for history to ever repeat itself.

RIP sweet innocent child
Absolutely, the mother did not kill the baby with her own hands, nor did she leave the baby with coyotes, but with what she thought were two docile dogs. Yes, she was negligent, but no more negligent than those parents who have pools and have had children drowned in them because they were not being properly supervised.

Geesh, I wish the justice system would think like you, pedophiles, rapists, murderers would stay in jail for the rest of their lives where they should be.
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  #73  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poodletalk View Post
The owner of the dogs need to take responsibilty of failing his dogs miserably and the brutal killing of the baby.

The mother needs to take responsibilty for the bruital killing of her baby that could have been 100% prevented.

i didn't get the impression from the articles that the dogs owners were even home. But yes they should have been crated while they were away from the home. The babies mothers were.
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  #74  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:40 AM
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totally have to disagree with your first statement..by your logic,,you get in a car accident and kill someone in the other car,,,oooops it's an accident so you should get off with a slap on the wrist..JMO,,if you are taking taking the responsibility of another in your hands, then YES you are responsible for the results. If you kill someone with your car through negligence then yes you should be charged, just as this woman/young adult had the responsibility of looking after her helpless child..
The difference being a person having control over the car, and therefore having a physical hand in causing death, but in this situation, the mother was not present during the killing.

BTW, many of those who have caused death with their vehicle do get off, it seems to be an acceptable cause of killing people , especially cyclists.
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  #75  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:40 AM
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imo if you kill someone in a car by (true) accident (no booze, drugs, speeding etc) you should not be charged. Life is full of terrible terrible accidents. It just is.

in this case, neglect also plays a part so in this case, i think she should be charged but the punishment imo should be minimal...ok really...gonna come back to this later....
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  #76  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Absolutely, the mother did not kill the baby with her own hands, nor did she leave the baby with coyotes, but with what she thought were two docile dogs. Yes, she was negligent, but no more negligent than those parents who have pools and have had children drowned in them because they were not being properly supervised.

Geesh, I wish the justice system would think like you, pedophiles, rapists, murderers would stay in jail for the rest of their lives where they should be.
This is an EXCELLENT point L4H. Excellent !!!!!
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  #77  
Old June 9th, 2010, 11:55 AM
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Yep , about the pack ...what I learned a bit earlier , there was not only the 2 huskies , but 2 other dogs and a litter of puppies !!! So that makes 4 intact dogs + puppies , inside an apartment.

:
4 dogs, god knows how many puppies.........Don't forget the 6 adults (there were 2 other couples living with this couple) and at least 3 other children!!! how freaking big was this place??!

Sorry but leaving a new born baby on the floor with dogs and kids running about is negligent, ignorant, and stupid, and stop using "she was only a child" excuse!!!! I was babysitting (kids and babies) at the age of 13 for dogs sake and I would have never done anything that stupid, even at 13 I knew better!! Besides the 37 year old grandmother was there, shouldn't she have know better!!??
IMO some "people" should be fixed!!

RIP sweet baby
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  #78  
Old June 9th, 2010, 12:02 PM
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It was complete 100% neglect. I am certain that the mother did not purposely place the child on the floor or the chair and go for a smoke or whatever else and think 'I am going to purposely do this so the dogs can kill her'! Come on.

I have done some pretty darn stupid things in my life, as I am certain ALL of us have done. No matter what form of stupidity it was..we did it. And for whatever reason were lucky that it did not cost our lives, our animal's lives or anyone else's life.

I feel terrible for everyone concerning this incident on so many levels. I do not however feel at all sorry for the dog...not at all because I truly believe that this was going to happen regardless at some point.

It just proves to me once again that owning animals is not a right. It is a priveldge. I WISH that if one wants to have a dog, regardless of breed, there should be courses to take to certify you knowledgeable enough to have a dog. But of course - that is a ridiculous and impractical thought.
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  #79  
Old June 9th, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Criminal Negligence - Criminal Code of Canada 219
"Cases of criminal negligence arise from acts or omissions when the accused was under a legal duty to do something or should have done something. To meet the standard for criminal negligence, the act or omission must show a wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.

Negligence is often defined as:

•not doing something which a reasonable person would do, or; doing something which a reasonable person would not do.
Thus negligence can involve acts of commission and acts of omission. In order to register a conviction the crown must generally show the court that the accused had a duty to perform, there was a breach of that duty, and there was an injury or loss."


Manslaughter:
"If somebody is committing an illegal act and causes the death of an individual then they are found guilty of manslaughter. Though the person died, there was no intention to cause death. Perhaps, there was only an intention to hurt someone but if a person dies because of that criminal act, the charge is manslaughter. The sentencing options for manslaughter are very complicated because there is no minimum. You can get anything from probation (which is unlikely) to life in jail. Often individuals found guilty of manslaughter will serve medium range penitentiary terms, in the neighbourhood of 7 to 15 years."


IMHO, not only should the mother not be charged with "Manslaughter" but be charged with "criminal negligence", but so should the grandmother, and the owners of the Huskies.

I doubt very much that the mother would get much of a sentence if found guilty since she's a juvenile, probably a fine and maybe some months probation, or some light sentence.

Unfortunately, this was a very tragic circumstance all around. And as to the Huskies, what should be done? IMHO if it could be determined which dog mauled the baby, that one should be euthanized. But at any rate, don't think the dogs they should be returned to the owner.

Tragic as it is, it's my hope that with the widespread publicity this story has received in newspapers and TV, that it is a wakeup call and education to any dog owner that they never ever should leave a child unsupervised or vulnerable to attack by a dog, no matter how friendly or obedient it may be. Perhaps by the baby's tragic death, others may be saved by this heartbreak, and parents/guardians/babysitters may be educated about the possibility of this danger. sweet baby
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Last edited by catlover2; June 9th, 2010 at 12:30 PM. Reason: Additional info. had been omitted.
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  #80  
Old June 9th, 2010, 12:39 PM
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On cfcf12, there's a topic tonight, "how dangerous are huskies"
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Old June 9th, 2010, 12:54 PM
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On cfcf12, there's a topic tonight, "how dangerous are huskies"
It should be "how dangerous are some 17 year old mothers" since so many are using her age as an excuse for this tragic incident .
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Old June 9th, 2010, 01:02 PM
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On cfcf12, there's a topic tonight, "how dangerous are huskies"
That is just great.
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  #83  
Old June 9th, 2010, 01:07 PM
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4 dogs, god knows how many puppies.........Don't forget the 6 adults (there were 2 other couples living with this couple) and at least 3 other children!!! how freaking big was this place??!

Sorry but leaving a new born baby on the floor with dogs and kids running about is negligent, ignorant, and stupid, and stop using "she was only a child" excuse!!!! I was babysitting (kids and babies) at the age of 13 for dogs sake and I would have never done anything that stupid, even at 13 I knew better!! Besides the 37 year old grandmother was there, shouldn't she have know better!!??
IMO some "people" should be fixed!!

RIP sweet baby
Bottom line she may not intentionally killed her child but ignorance is no excuse you do not leave a 20 day old baby by itself, period. I am sure she learned her lack of parenting from her mom and grandmother(how stupid is this woman). They were not her dogs from what I am gathering why would she trust them. Mind you this is the kind of mom who probably would go out at night when the kid is asleep with no one to watch them. Please this kid with a kid and a useless grandmother was a disaster waiting to happen. She does need to be tried and yes she should do time not a slap on the wrist. She is old enough to have sex and a baby she is an adult.
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  #84  
Old June 9th, 2010, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poodletalk
On cfcf12, there's a topic tonight, "how dangerous are huskies"
That is just great.
I know, I just left a message with hubby, telling him, when he walks our dog and anyone asks about her breed, just say "she's a mix" I don't want problems because she's a husky mix.
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  #85  
Old June 9th, 2010, 02:04 PM
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Who wants to place a bet that if they do a tox test on the baby there will be residule drugs in her bloodstream?
I think they did find something , what , I don't know but the charges against the mother came right after the autopsy !!



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Both should have known better than to just quickly "pop outside for a puff" with an infant unattended. The grandmother has no charges pending from what I understand. There is something not quite right here.....
I totally agree , mother , grand mother , dogs owners , they should all be charge. Heck I think I would also charge the BF for statutory rape ! He was over 18 when the girl got pregnant.

and about that quick puff outside .... not sure about quick , some say they were out for 20 to 30 minutes. There's also something wrong between the time of the attack (between 3:30 and 3:40) and the time when the ambulance people pronounce the baby's death (5:45) ....
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  #86  
Old June 9th, 2010, 02:08 PM
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they probably went back outside for another joint and a smoke before they called.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 02:12 PM
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I would like the dogs to go through a complete evaultion, blood and temperment to see if their a danger to society, what are the chances of them doing this again or even biting.


Plus the dogs have ran away from him many times, roamed the neighbourhood. Not the best pet owner and he shouldn't have any dogs or have these dogs back.
Yep , many neighbors warned them many times and nothing was done by the stupid owners.

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Originally Posted by poodletalk View Post
The owner of the dogs need to take responsibilty of failing his dogs miserably and the brutal killing of the baby.

The mother needs to take responsibilty for the bruital killing of her baby that could have been 100% prevented.
I totally agree !

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I was babysitting (kids and babies) at the age of 13 for dogs sake and I would have never done anything that stupid, even at 13 I knew better!!
I used to babysit 3 kids after school , I was in grade 6 and yes , I knew better !

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She is old enough to have sex and a baby she is an adult.
ditto !
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Old June 9th, 2010, 02:12 PM
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they probably went back outside for another joint and a smoke before they called.
I think they needed to hide some stuff before the police got there ....
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  #89  
Old June 9th, 2010, 02:12 PM
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On cfcf12, there's a topic tonight, "how dangerous are huskies"
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/maul...th/#clip311258

It says that in fatal attacks huskies are third after Pitties and Rotties...

I love huskies...always wanted one and still do. Don't blame the dogs when the owners are at fault...any breed!
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  #90  
Old June 9th, 2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Frenchy View Post
I think they needed to hide some stuff before the police got there ....
they have special puppers just for finding said hide substances...
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