Find him a new home or not?

[Ryanh]

I don't know what to do with my 9month lab/pit mix. I feel very guilty even thinking about giving him up to a new home since I feel like I am giving up especially since I have grown up with dogs.

We got Maddox on Aug 8 and have been through many frustrating days. We have made some progress with him, he is now crateable so accidents in the house rare, he does listen more, sits on command and does other stuff, but thats it. He is in obedience training now, today is the 3rd session of 8, he is great at the training sessions, but when he is home he is crazy. It seems my fiancee and I cannot give him the attention and patience that he needs and both of us have lost our patience with him. I for one am a patient, laid back induvidual, I can tolerate a lot before I get upset, but having maddox for 6weeks has caused me to be constantly stressed out, short tempered and always at the brink of snapping, my fiancee has told me that i am getting short with her. Well today I finally blew my lid, came home to see him in his crate after being there for maybe 4hrs since lunch time to see him lying in his pee...i know not his fault, i let him out and he goes nuts around the house dripping pee all over the house, again i know its not his fault, but that was the last thing i wanted to see when i got home from work. Here i am in the bath bathing him for 3rd time in 4days, then he gets out and all hells breaks loose, mad dog maddox going berzerk running around chasing the cats, barking at me, just anarchy with 4legs. This is an average day with him, we constantly have to keep him in control, our afterwork lives are now devoted to keeping him under control and occupied which recently has not being working well, he wants to play with the cats all the time, i mean he is harmless with them, but its constant hissing, swatting, chasing, and barking at them. And then there is the bitting, nipping which is starting to hurt, pulling on the leash some days, chewing and eating everything in site, barking at one of us when he wants attention which can be all the time...give him attention and he bites you. Don't get me wrong, he is a dog that has the potential to be a great, obedient and loyal dog, but we do not have anymore energy or patience for him, my fiancee is starting to worry about my mental state since I cannot handle this....I feel stupid to say this, but this evening before she took him to obedience class I was at the brink of tears from all this stress. Its starting to effect my work, today I got a little irrate with someone on the phone...i must say they were being difficult, but that is unlike me to do that. Just yesterday I was ok with him, in fact my fiancee was sounding like I am sounding today, but i told her its ok, we can handle it, we've gone too far to give him up, but I think today all that pressure blew up in me. I can say by tomorrow I might be ok with him again, but just one little thing and I will blow my top again.
I love dogs, my families dog of 13yrs who we had since a puppy had to get put down last week due to cancer...surgery had failed to work etc and it was very hard for me to handle..had to take a half day of work off since i could not deal with it, so please don't think of me as an irresponsible dog owner who can't handle an energetic dog, I just can't take it anymore....I worry that it will put a lot of stress on our relationship, in fact I would say it is.

I really cannot see any way for this to work, Maddox needs an owner that can spend more time with him, has more property for him to run around and someone who can devote the time to teach him, but I worry someone will get him and not take care of him and he will get abandoned or put down...As much as I can't stand the dog I care for him, but I don't think I can handle him anymore.



I don't know what to do!does this sound silly or is this normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!help!

[jessi76]

my trainer used to say, if you can make it through the idiot phase (8-10mths) then you will have a long happy life together. Most people give up on their dogs at this age because it's difficult. They seem to forget training, they seem to flat out ignore you, they test you, challenge your rank, and drive you insane. it's just a phase, it DOES PASS. but you have to maintain control, consistancy and most importantly....a sense of humor! don't let it get to you so much, take a deep breath, and realize it could be ALOT worse.

you are not the first person to live with a furry freakshow. Take steps to remedy the problems as they come... an off the wall dog needs less time in the crate and more time burning energy OUTSIDE. a dog who won't listen to you may need to be kept on leash so you can enforce some house rules. a dog who soils his crate needs to go out more often. etc...

if you can't take care of his exercise needs yourself because you work, then pay someone to do it for you. I sent my dog to daycare at that age, and although it cost alot ($25/day) it was money WELL spent. I had a DEAD tired dog by 5pm. a dog who was happy to lay at my feet until bedtime. all the while continuing with obedience classes 1 night a week. constant exercise and training is what got us through it.

[Joey.E.CockersMommy]

I am not a really a dog expert - but it does sound like typical puppy behavior to me.

Maybe he needs more to tire him out, also obedience training will help too with some of his behaviors and teach him basic doggie manners. Could someone come take him for a walk during the day when you are both at work.

Last I would reccomend reading Marley and Me by John Grogan - I definately think you could relate to this book.

[Puppyluv]

This doesn't sound silly at all. This sounds like puppy stuff. Not the fun cute puppy stuff, but the pain in the @$$ puppy stuff that you struggle through, cursing the entire time.
How much exercise is Maddox getting? From what you describe, it doesn't sound like enough, and it should be upped. I'm guessing he isn't ready to be offleash yet, unless in a smaller fenced area, so if possible, find such a spot and let him go wild. A tired dog is a well behaved dog. It won't prevent peeing in his crate, but it will calm him down some. Don't give up, you're almost through the toughest bit!

[Puppyluv]

Originally Posted by Joey.E.CockersMommy

Last I would reccomend reading Marley and Me by John Grogan - I definately think you could relate to this book.

LOL, I don't think that book should be read until AFTER he either calms down, or they accept that he won't ever calm down.. it may be a bit discouraging and scary at this point in the game

[Ryanh]

He gets enough exercise according to our trainer, I take him for a 1 mile run at 7am, then a quick walk before I leave for work at 8ish, my fiancee comes home at lunch for 1hr, takes him for a walk, maybe 10mins since thats all the time she had, then my 5-5:30 one us us are home and he will get another 10-15min walk and usually 2-3 more walks that evening. I try to play with him off lease with a ball, but if someone else is walking their dog nearby I can't since he goes after them wanting to play.
If I could run more in the morning I would, but I can't do that much just yet.

I think part of this is due to us not having the time for him, we do know we are in that 8-10mth stage of madness, but we think we are not able to give him what he needs and the idea of giving up our life for him is hard to swallow, we made the mistake of ignoring that aspect when we got him since at the time he was calm and cool, temperment test showed just want we wanted the the humane society said he was a good calm dog, thats what we were expecting.

At this point since I have calmed down I feel OK, but I worry about me losing my temper and doing something.

[Prin]

I think he needs more play time. Jemma jogged with her old owner 45 minutes a day and it didn't wear her out. She needed to play. Running is pretty dull and unchallenging to a doggy.

[Puppyluv]

Originally Posted by Prin

I think he needs more play time. Jemma jogged with her old owner 45 minutes a day and it didn't wear her out. She needed to play. Running is pretty dull and unchallenging to a doggy.

I dunno, I run Lay each morning for 12 km and it knocks her out cold for at least 5 hours. She still wants to play when I take her out again, but in the house she just sleeps and sleeps.

[Prin]

How long does 12k take you?

[Puppyluv]

we go pretty slow, and stop for a swim after 6 km, so 60 min running time, 70 min total. Half of it is offleash

[Prin]

Yeah, the offleash part and the swimming part makes it more interesting, I think...

[Angies Man]

Some questions:

How long does he have to stay in his crate during the day? He may be able to get through the night without peeing, but it's tougher for a young dog to go all day without going out. They have a drink first thing in the morning and then no chance for a second pee. And, nothing is completely developed in young dogs, you know.

Where do you park his crate during the day? Park it close to the door where he's going out. First thing for Maddox when you get up or get home is that he goes out. As in IMMEDIATELY! Let him do his excited, happy dog routine outside and not tear around the house. And have a lawn chair out there. Let him run around, pee, poop, sniff, etc. When he starts to wind down a bit, YOU sit down and make him sit to be calmed, petted, and told good boy--I think it kinda sounds like you and he are suffering from a "failure to communicate." One of the basic tennets of behaviorism is that as much as possible you reward the behavior you want and as much as possible ignore/discard the behavior you don't. So if he's wild and crazy, don't reward him by yelling at him, but do praise him when he comes over, sits, and submits for some affection. Praise in a calming voice, too. A couple of treats in the pocket can speed things up. It takes self control and patience but it DOES work.

Get your obedience trainer to help you and he learn the "WAIT!" or "STAY!" commands. And make him wait in his crate until you can get a lead on him.

Do you have a fenced yard? He's got a lot of energy--that needs to be worked off. Get him a frisbee (get a dog style frisbee they last longer) or a tennis ball and throw it for him--he's got retriever, he'll get the idea and make a pest of himself with putting the toy in your lap, but you need to channel his boundless enthusiasm in productive directions.

I'm sorry, it sounds like he'll need a lot of socialization. NO! is a great place to start--especially if he's terrorizing the cat. That isn't acceptable, and can lead to accidental injury or death of cats. YOU and your GF need to take him to the obedience classes and learn to handle him. Obedience training is as much the training of the human as it is the canine. You need to learn to use the lead and training collar (it isn't automatic!) And you need to learn to work him firmly with patience. No jerking the lead and losing your temper!!! He's gonna take time and effort, if you can't do it, I'd suggest you find him a home before you make his problems much worse and permanent.

Obedience training, btw, works best with a lot of repitition. Everyday. You got this puppy, it's up to you to make him into a nice dog.

[Puppyluv]

Originally Posted by Prin

Yeah, the offleash part and the swimming part makes it more interesting, I think...

Probably, but in the winter she doesn't get the swim, but back on topic... I still think, despite what the trainer says, that he needs more exercise and mental stimulation.

[Rottielover]

adolecence....with constaint leadership, and positive ways to dicipline, play time mixed with training it can be done. Listen, I had a puppy when my daughter was a baby. I am a single mom. If I could do it, anyone could. Sit down with your fiance, and figure out how BOTH of you are going to handle it. If both of you are on the same page with training and dicipline, it can be done.

[Ryanh]

ok, kayla got home from obedience class since I was told to stay home and she spent 1hr after class talking with the trainer who also did the temperment test on Maddox so she knows the dog. Her recommendation which happens to be the 2nd time she has ever recommended it is doggy bootcamp, she says it will be hard, but the last person she recommended it to has excellent results after 1 week and her dog who she said was worse that our Maddox responded very well to this.

So he is to stay in his crate all the time except to go outside, when he is outside we go to one place and thats its, no walk. We are also to get a pinch collar and we let him out of the crate, if he goes nuts or goes after the cats we use the collar and put him back in the crate and keep doing this until he learns that he must behave if he wants out. Sounds extreme, but its suppose to teach him to behave when in our house and to teach him who is boss. Its going to be hard, but if this works say after 2weeks I will be VERY happy.

As for the comments on more exercise, it makes sense, but at the same time that will just turn him into an athlete that will never tire and that he will keep needing more and more, at least thats what the trainer mentioned....although not the first time I heard that.

I think i just needed to vent and this place is great for that, I always feel better after seeing the advice you people give. thanks!

[pitgrrl]

Ryanh, I totally feel for you. I got my two pit mixes when they were around the same age as your dog and I had many crying my eyes out what have I done moments in the first few months with them.
As others have posted, one of the things that helped the most was stepping up the excersise.
It's great that he gets a run in the morning, and a visit at lunch, but 10-15 minutes walks aren't going to do it, as you probably can tell. Maybe another long walk or run in the evening would get out some of his energy. Could you maybe take an hour after dinner and walk with your fiancee and Maddox? Or you could make a flirt pole for him to play with, jumping also tend to tire them out pretty quick.

As for the madness in the house, what really worked with my two was to give them something to do, rather than constantly correct them for running around and jumping on everything. For example, I taught them to go get specific toys, so that when I get home and they're all excited, I immediately tell them to go get X toy, which re-directs their excitement and gives them something to do other than running around aimlessly.

I really hope you can dig deep and find that extra bit of patience to get through the idiot adolesant stage, it really will be rewarding when you've both made it through all the insanity and come out the otherside. Your relationship with your dog will be so much stronger for it.

[LavenderRott]

Your trainer is an idiot!

Your dog is "hyper" so to train the dog, you are to limit his activities as if he has had major surgery and then correct him with a prong collar if he doesn't behave like a fully trained adult dog!?! My God, he can't even go for a walk! Sorry, but to me, that is borderline abuse and I believe in crating!

He needs guidance and exercise. Not being couped up and abused.

Prong collars are great TOOLS. They ARE NOT a quick fix to replace patience and consistancy.

[pitgrrl]

Originally Posted by Ryanh

So he is to stay in his crate all the time except to go outside, when he is outside we go to one place and thats its, no walk. We are also to get a pinch collar and we let him out of the crate, if he goes nuts or goes after the cats we use the collar and put him back in the crate and keep doing this until he learns that he must behave if he wants out. Sounds extreme, but its suppose to teach him to behave when in our house and to teach him who is boss. Its going to be hard, but if this works say after 2weeks I will be VERY happy.

Keeping him on a leash at all times, so that you have better control and are able to correct his behavior makes sense, but I have to be honest, that amount of crate time seems like a recipe for an incrediably frustrated dog who isn't going to be able to learn much.
I'm actually a bit amazed that a trainer would suggest this, as the only comparable thing I've ever heard was specifically in training of working dogs in which that level of frustration was channelled into training and work, work which burned alot of steam.

Originally Posted by Ryanh

As for the comments on more exercise, it makes sense, but at the same time that will just turn him into an athlete that will never tire and that he will keep needing more and more, at least thats what the trainer mentioned....although not the first time I heard that.

The thing is, you have a pretty athletic mix on your hands. Pitulls are athletes, it isn't fair, IMO, to deny them that in hopes of making them into a lazy dog. He is also at an age where he has a whole lot of energy to burn, in my experience it's a lot harder to try and teach a wound up, frustrated dog anything than a well excersised one.

[Prin]

omg I thought Lavender was being harsh, but she's right! Exercising dogs doesn't make them more hyper. No way! Keeping them in a cage all day does that. Wow, your trainer is really backwards.

[Puppyluv]

Is the trainer part of a company? or is she private? Because if she's the former, I would complain for the ****ty advice you've been given.

[technodoll]

to quote cesar millan:

Exercise
Discipline
Affection

...in that order. his training methods may not be liked by everyone but this piece of advice is rock-solid!

[Prin]

I hate cesar milan, but what he says is usually true (it's just what he does that is horrible).

[Ryanh]

I don't think you people are reading my posts, he gets 20mins walk before 7am, 10min run between 7-7:30, 12-1 my gf is home, takes him out for a 20min walk, back home by 5, gets a 20-30min walk, then i get home take him out for a 10min walk, he then gets 3 more walks from 7-10:30 about 10-15mins each. When we can we let him off leash and play with a ball or fresbie, let him in the backyard which is small and let him run around. He is getting as much exercise as we can give him, if you think that is unreasonable then I am sorry, but to me that is enough. I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.
We have been disciplining him, good firm NO, or OFF if he is getting on the sofa or jumping up, giving LOTS of praise when he is good, he is not a hyper dog he is just CRAZY, he serious bounces off the wall, there are bents in my wall, he runs straight into furniture, jumps down the stairs from top to bottom. I try to play with him, but that just amounts to him grabing my hands, arms, feet and hurting me, if I sit on the floor even to stretch before I go joggin with him he bites my head,shoulder, legs, even walking away saying NO does nothing until his attention is diverted to something else...cat.

Our trainer does not promote this method of extreme training, like I said she uses it as a last resort option, she used it on her dog and it worked, she is no mean trainer, she is one of the nicest people I have met. She is the trainer/temperment tester at the humane society that did maddox's test and said he was an extreme case that needed lots of attention, something we were not made aware of.
I have talked with other trainers about him and all were surprised of his behaviour, they all consider him outside the norm.

*and he doesn't stay in the crate all day, if he behaves well outside the crate then he gets to stay out, but as soon as he misbehaves we correct him with the collar and put him in the crate. If he is good we take him out, this is only a temporary 1-2 week bootcamp, at this point I have no other option, we have done everything that we have been told to do, it hasn't been working.

..perhaps this was a bad idea posting

[technodoll]

sounds like your dog is bored and needs a job... a place to funnel all his excessive energy. perhaps it would not be a bad idea to think about another home for him where he could run all day, perhaps herding sheep? living out on a farm where he feels useful? i dunno... just throwing ideas out here. some dogs are just not meant for "city life"

[Prin]

Originally Posted by technodoll

sounds like your dog is bored and needs a job...

Exactly.

I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.

That right there is why I will never get a puppy. Even the best dog takes about 3 years to really calm down. If you don't have the patience for that, then you really need to rethink your situation.

Your dog is a puppy. Damage is what puppies do. Super damage is what bored puppies do.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

He is getting as much exercise as we can give him, if you think that is unreasonable then I am sorry, but to me that is enough. I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.

I always feel sad when I see things like this, because SO many people don't understand just how much exercise and stimulation a high-drive dog needs to be calm and happy.

Working dogs aren't bred to be taken out and walked and played with and that's it, they're bred to WORK. Working means that they can run and have energy ALL day. A normal working day for someone is 8 hours, a working dog can do 8 hours of constant work if needed, which means they are high energy dogs.

I have an aussi/german shep/chow mix, and aussi and german shepherds are dogs that are bred to be able to do 4-6 hours of heavy activity. Heavy activity for these dogs would be herding several sheep, pulling things, etc., activities that they need to put a lot of thought and energy into.
If my dog doesn't get at least 3 hours of heavy activity a day she will zoom around the house and bounce of the walls (literally), chasing cats and doing all kinds of other stuff. This is all stuff that you have to be very hands on with your dog about to teach that it's not ok. If you just stand there and scream "no!" the dog knows you can't keep up with it.

Keeping your dog in a crate for a longer time is NOT going to make it better, especially since your dog is a puppy. It's going to make your dog even more hyperactive because it won't have enough mental and physical stimulation.

You mentioned that your dog is good with obedience training. Try doing more training at home. Teach your dog to turn off lights, find stuff, bring you things, get your dog involved in your daily life. Don't just get home and take your dog out to run around, it needs mental stimulation AT HOME. It needs to learn more things in order to understand your world, or else it will just be confused. Try teaching your dogs several names of objects and then teaching him to pick each object out by name.

If you don't do these things you will either just have to deal with the bad behavior until your dog is older and calmer (which may be never), or it may be a good idea to find a home that the dog will be better suited for. I know this is a last resort, but sometimes there's just no way to change your life around enough to suit a high energy high drive dog.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Ryanh

I don't think you people are reading my posts, he gets 20mins walk before 7am, 10min run between 7-7:30, 12-1 my gf is home, takes him out for a 20min walk, back home by 5, gets a 20-30min walk, then i get home take him out for a 10min walk, he then gets 3 more walks from 7-10:30 about 10-15mins each. When we can we let him off leash and play with a ball or fresbie, let him in the backyard which is small and let him run around. He is getting as much exercise as we can give him, if you think that is unreasonable then I am sorry, but to me that is enough. I don't have the fitness level to run 12km a day nor to I have the time.
We have been disciplining him, good firm NO, or OFF if he is getting on the sofa or jumping up, giving LOTS of praise when he is good, he is not a hyper dog he is just CRAZY, he serious bounces off the wall, there are bents in my wall, he runs straight into furniture, jumps down the stairs from top to bottom. I try to play with him, but that just amounts to him grabing my hands, arms, feet and hurting me, if I sit on the floor even to stretch before I go joggin with him he bites my head,shoulder, legs, even walking away saying NO does nothing until his attention is diverted to something else...cat.

Our trainer does not promote this method of extreme training, like I said she uses it as a last resort option, she used it on her dog and it worked, she is no mean trainer, she is one of the nicest people I have met. She is the trainer/temperment tester at the humane society that did maddox's test and said he was an extreme case that needed lots of attention, something we were not made aware of.
I have talked with other trainers about him and all were surprised of his behaviour, they all consider him outside the norm.

*and he doesn't stay in the crate all day, if he behaves well outside the crate then he gets to stay out, but as soon as he misbehaves we correct him with the collar and put him in the crate. If he is good we take him out, this is only a temporary 1-2 week bootcamp, at this point I have no other option, we have done everything that we have been told to do, it hasn't been working.

..perhaps this was a bad idea posting

No. It wasn't a bad idea to post. Now that I have gotten over what your trainer told you, let's try to talk this through. LOL!!

Crating the dog more is going to make the problem worse, not better. Dogs don't think like people do and crates should never, ever be used as punishment.

Yes, it sounds like this dog has more energy then you do. Yes, I think that you might try to contact a local rescue and see if they can help you find a new home for this dog - maybe with someone who does some long distance running.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

The only time a crate can be used for obedience is for actual working dogs like attack dogs, racing dogs, etc.. The crate is used as part of a very regimented and structured enviroment.

The dogs are crated most of the time (until they're older), and only taken out to work.

This does the OPPOSITE of what you want out of your dog.

The working dogs are left in crates and then taken out to work because once they're taken out they'll have tons of energy and that energy can be concentrated on doing their work. They learn that once they're uncrated it's time to go to work.
Even though these dogs are crated when not working they are exercised and taught their job 4-6 hours a day and also given several walks and time with their trainers. Your dog is not a working dog, so crating it constantly will NOT have a desired effect and it will NOT get enough exercise and mental stimulation.

[Puppyluv]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

Yes, it sounds like this dog has more energy then you do. Yes, I think that you might try to contact a local rescue and see if they can help you find a new home for this dog - maybe with someone who does some long distance running.

God, if only I wasn't going back to school next week.... I would love a second running partner.

[Prin]

That's the thing, puppies are such a serious committment.