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Old August 10th, 2010, 08:16 AM
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Exclamation Need to make a decision about my poor limping puppy

Hi, everyone, I have a 13 month old GSD. He has been limping for 3 weeks now. It started with his front right leg, and then about a week later, it switched to his back right leg, and now it is back to his front leg. At first we thought it was just another growing pain, since he had one in March and the vet took an X-ray on his front right leg and didn't find anything. But this time it seems lasts quite long, so I am really worried. I followed this herbal treatment for 2 days now,http://leerburg.com/pano.htm, but nothing has improved.

I made an appointment with the East York Animal Clinic, it is a quite famous holistic hospital in the GTA , so I was thinking to give it a try. Both my cat and dog are with the Kingsway Animal Hospital (it is 10 mins away from home). But now I am thinking maybe I should just stick with the Kingsway, since the first consultation with the East York will be $175, quite expensive, and for his problem, an X-ray probably will be required, so if I go back to the Kingsway, I will save some money. Last time when he had Pano, the vet visit cost about $350, pretty much for nothing, that's why this time I am waiting a bit longer.

I really don't know what to do. My question is, is it really worth it to try the holistic approach in his case, or I should just make an appointment with my regular vet?? Please help meI need to make a decision soon. Thank you very much!!!

FYI, he has been on Innova puppy food for 11 months, and now he is on Innova adult food large bite. I don't understand why this is happening to him, he has been on good food since he was a baby…He is a big boy though. I guess on the large side of GSD, about 95 lbs. We haven't walked him ever since he got the pain, only bring him out for pee and potty. It is a very frustrating situation. Other than limping, everything else is normal, good appetite, solid stool.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 09:12 AM
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Personally, I'd go to neither clinic: I'd be calling my regular vet and asking them to set up an appointment with an orthopaedic specialist...your vet can have the xrays they've taken sent over before the appointment. With GSD's, who can be fraught with joint problems, I wouldn't be messing around (especially with a young dog and one who's so large). Where did you get the pup? If from a breeder, have you spoken to him/her about the issue? Also, you should prepare yourself to spend a bit of money on this: no matter what kind of vet you see, joint issues are often expensive (speaking from experience).
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Old August 10th, 2010, 09:31 AM
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I agree with bendyfoot. It's often very hard for a general practice vet of any sort to spot orthopedic changes early. An orthopedic specialist would give you the best diagnosis.

Have you tested for ehrlichiosis, Lyme's and/or anaplasmosis? Tick-borne diseases like these often manifest as rotating lameness. Blood tests can be done to detect them.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 09:50 AM
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Thank you both for replying so fast He has a good appetite and his temperature is normal, so I don't think it is Tick-borne diseases, though a blood-test might be better to rule it out.

So should I book an appointment with my regular vet to have the blood test done and to see if I should get a referral to the orthopaedic specialist, or just make an appointment with orthopaedic specialist and have him tested for Tick-borne diseases there? Thx!!!
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Old August 10th, 2010, 09:55 AM
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Your vet might charge less for the blood tests. It might not hurt to call and check prices.

As for symptoms, sometimes the only symptoms we've seen have been rotating lameness and slight, hardly-noticeable lethargy... Do you know if you have ticks in your area?
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Old August 10th, 2010, 09:57 AM
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oh, also, bendyfoot, I got my puppy from a reputable breeder, at least she seems that way...certain things she does I am not agree with, but overall, I think she is O.K. The reason I said that is because, when I talked to her about his problem 2 weeks ago, she said it is growing pains and just give him some ADVIL
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Old August 10th, 2010, 09:57 AM
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You could book the appointment with your regular vet for blood work and to set up the referral, or to find out what your other options are (if any) before going to the ortho. But an ortho vet will be able to run a blood panel if needed.
Usually specialist apointments have to be booked through your regular vet on referral, so you'll have to at least speak to your regular vet on the phone about it.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 10:14 AM
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Thanks, hazelrunpack. But I am not sure if my area has tick problems . I know a little further down south has lots of ticks. But we have never brought him there. Does anyone here know about the Etobicoke area? Either way, I think I will cancel the appointment with East York, and book one with my vet.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 11:08 AM
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This sounds exactly like what we were going through with our GSD. He had growing pains that traveled and got him on every single leg at some point. He had X-rays done twice (second time when the pains came back at 18 months). He was on Metacam each time when he would start limping -- meds would be given for few days/a week which was enough to reduce the pain. We were very worried it was Hip/elbow displasia but x rays cleared that as well it was travelling pain (moved from one leg to the other over time). Metacam seemed to help him tremendously.

With young dogs its important to resolve the pain quickly because when they are in pain in their legs they stop putting weight on it/reduce how much they put weight on it, which may cause developmental imbalance later on. So its best to remove the pain as fast as possible to allow him to develop properly on all legs.

It cost a lot for us too with the x-rays and meds, but we were lucky we had insurance that covered a large portion...

Good Luck and keep us updated on the progress!
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Old August 10th, 2010, 11:12 AM
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One more question, actually two, I don't feel any bumps on his skin, how likely does he have tick-borne diseases? And which tick prevention is safer and more effective? Lyme Vaccines or preventive topical drops. Thanks again!
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Old August 10th, 2010, 11:27 AM
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I just re read your post... why do you think he has a tick disease? I spoke with my vet a few months ago about lyme disease, in our area (I am from Torotno) it is VERY rare to the point that most vet clinics dont even carry that vaccine. They said if we are going to a tick prone area its advisable to use a heart worm med. that prevents ticks as well (they gave us revolution).

What you are describing, especially since you have a GSD and a large one as well, who is 13 months old (prime time for pano) and since you already had x-rays done, I personally wouldnt worry too much as it follows all the signs for pano. I would get pain meds to reduce his pain and to allow him to walk again. It is important for him to walk to ensure that he forms properly and grows properly (bones structure, muscles, etc.). I would avoid running/too logn a walks but if he has pain meds he should be able to take short walks in the neighbourhood.....
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Old August 10th, 2010, 11:31 AM
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You were lucky, Masha. We had insurance for our 2 cats a while ago then we stopped it, we decided to open an account for our pets and put money in every month. But then, one of our cats had a serious problem which cost us about $10,000, we didn't have the insurance and we lost our cat. After that, we got insurance again for the other cat and the puppy, but then we went back to saving money on our own idea...And now, when we need the money again, we don't have the insurance...

I hope it's just growing pains The vet gave him some Tramodol a couple weeks ago, it didn't seem to work so I put him on the herbal treatment. I just feel like we have really bad luck with our pets this couple years...

BTW, both of his parents have the hip and elbow certifications from OVC.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 11:38 AM
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allow him to walk again. It is important for him to walk to ensure that he forms properly and grows properly (bones structure, muscles, etc.). I would avoid running/too logn a walks but if he has pain meds he should be able to take short walks in the neighbourhood.....
Just thought I'd comment on this. We went through a limping issue when our Lab was 9 to 12months old. It went away and nothing was ever found to cause it but in the meantime our homeopathic, holistic Vet also advised to continue with mild, regular exercise. No wild running off leash, as we were used to, but sedate leash walks and even slow jogging was encouraged. And he advised against crate rest, which is something that usually is advised. He feared the dog would stiffen up and there was, as mentionned in the quote, the growth issue. A way to think of it is anyone you know who has had a back problem lately (human) is more likely these days to be told to keep moving, not bed rest which might let them stiffen up and possibly lose mobility permanently. Ask your VEt. Good luck.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 11:41 AM
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@Masha, because hazelrunpack said there might be a slight chance that he has it. I just want to be on the safe side. It sucks to be in this situation. I am currently fostering 2 kittens as well, I don't think I am able to do this anymore, since they also need some vet care. Way too much stress, I think I will just have to give them to the shelter...sorry it is a little off topic...
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Old August 10th, 2010, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by LittleMushroom View Post
One more question, actually two, I don't feel any bumps on his skin, how likely does he have tick-borne diseases? And which tick prevention is safer and more effective? Lyme Vaccines or preventive topical drops. Thanks again!
If there are very few ticks in your area, then either of them is probably overkill, LM. However, to answer your questions, the Lyme's vaccine only protects against Lyme's (not anaplasmosis or ehrlichiosis) but won't repel ticks. The topicals will repel ticks, helping to cut down on incidence of disease. But if ticks aren't commonly found in your area, I wouldn't do either unless your dog tests positive.

As for feeling the ticks, hubby contracted anaplasmosis from a tick we never saw

Masha, the only reason I mentioned it is that rotating lameness is a classic symptom for tick-borne disease. Around here, that's the first thing they check for in such cases since it's so prevalent here.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 12:15 PM
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Thanks hazelrunpack! I am waiting for my vet to call me back, to see what she thinks before I rush him to have some blood works done.

Thanks, Masha, for your suggestion of Metacam, I will discuss it with my vet. Do you mind me asking what was the longest time that the pain lasted on your dog? As I mentioned, it has been more than 3 weeks, continuously. And the funny part is, it's been always on his right side.

And thanks for your tips, Longblades. That just make me think, everytime when I bring him out in the back yard to pee or potty, he seems walks better than in the house...

I dunno if eveybody here is familiar with that herbal treatment I mentioned, should I continue giving them to him? He doesn't like the taste though. Making him eat is another tough part.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 12:36 PM
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Littlemushroommom,,,i have to agree with Masha,,as you know i'm just a few blocks from you,,,there hasn't been any cases of Lyme disease or tick born diseases in the GTA in years,,,lol,,must have to do with the lack of green space..
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Old August 10th, 2010, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleMushroom View Post
Thanks, Masha, for your suggestion of Metacam, I will discuss it with my vet. Do you mind me asking what was the longest time that the pain lasted on your dog? As I mentioned, it has been more than 3 weeks, continuously. And the funny part is, it's been always on his right side.
With Metacam, the longest was 3 weeks but it was gradually reducing within the 3 weeks. We always gave him metacam within 1 week or so of symptoms so not sure how it would be without it.

Ticks are very very rare in the GTA, unless you go to a cottage or hiking to wooded areas outside the city...
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Old August 10th, 2010, 01:31 PM
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oh, also, bendyfoot, I got my puppy from a reputable breeder, at least she seems that way...certain things she does I am not agree with, but overall, I think she is O.K. The reason I said that is because, when I talked to her about his problem 2 weeks ago, she said it is growing pains and just give him some ADVIL
Wow. I hope that breeder isn't telling other, more naive owners the same advice. I guess I was thinking maybe, since the breeder should be familiar with her dogs and their growth and the breed, she could tell you if this has happened with any of the other pups or parents. Although, given the advil thing, I would probably run, not walk, away from her and any other "advice" she might try to give.
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Old August 11th, 2010, 10:51 PM
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LOL~~She did tell us about the Pano the day we picked up our puppyr. But she didn't mention if any of her dogs or the dogs she co-owned has experienced it. And I don't know how to tell her to stop giving people Advil advice

I talked to my vet yesterday, she said they need to x-ray him AGAIN!! The last x-ray was done in late March, is it really necessary to have it done one more time??? Also she mentioned that they might need to sedate him for the X-ray to get the good shot. Really...
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Old August 12th, 2010, 08:34 AM
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I talked to my vet yesterday, she said they need to x-ray him AGAIN!! The last x-ray was done in late March, is it really necessary to have it done one more time??? Also she mentioned that they might need to sedate him for the X-ray to get the good shot. Really...
Our guy was X-rayed once at the first time the pano showed up (at 8 months i think...) then again when after months of no pano it came back at teh age of 18 months. They x rayed him then because they said that usually its over before 18 months so they wanted to be sure. He had to be sedated each time for the x rays... when was the last x ray done? how long ago? if it was just a short time ago, i would try to give him pain meds to see if it works... constant repeated sedatiion is not too great for dogs... but if the last x ray was a logn tiem ago, than maybe its better to have it done to be on the safe side.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 09:02 AM
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My guy was X-rayed once ($340 two years ago) and the Vet could find nothing. After meds, chiro, appropriate exercise the Vet set up an appt. with U.of G. and we also discussed possible ongoing treatment at a specializing Vet some distance from me. Thankfully just before the U.of G. appt. puppyboy stopped limping and I cancelled it. I was looking at a couple of thousand dollars. But, the longwinded point I was trying to make, maybe your Vet should be finding someone more qualified to do the second set of X-rays for you? An ortho specialist.

Oh, and we discounted lymmes as well. If you check with your local health unit they can tell you how many incidences. There were none of Lymmes, at that time. I found one of Er - wait, gotta find out how to spell it - Ehrlichiosis, and it was in one dog known to have holidayed in the sounthern U.S. So we did not do those tests.

Good luck. Hope the limping just stops as it did with my boy.
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Old August 12th, 2010, 10:33 PM
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@Marsha, He got his first X-ray done around 8 months old too. It was back in March this year. Anaesthetic wasn't used since it was too late in the day. So they only x-rayed him on one side of his right front leg. Maybe we just need to x-ray the other side this time? Thx

@Longblades, do you know if specialists charge more for x-ray than regular vets? If so, maybe I can just have the x-ray done by my vet, well, more likely by the technician and send them to the specialist. Thanks for the info.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 07:07 AM
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The specialist might require a special view, so if you have your regular vet take the xrays, he'll need to find out from the specialist which views are needed.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 08:14 AM
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@Longblades, do you know if specialists charge more for x-ray than regular vets? If so, maybe I can just have the x-ray done by my vet, well, more likely by the technician and send them to the specialist. Thanks for the info.
I don't know, but my guess is a resounding YES, if they will do it at all. I'm pretty sure Hazel has the right idea though, and part of what you pay a specialist for is the proper positioning of the limb for the X-ray. I highly doubt they will allow someone else to do that for them. When I took another dog to a specialist for another reason they did the X-rays over again and did many more.

I remember now what I was quoted for a BEGINNING price for U. of G. $2,500 Your Vet can advise you. There isn't a fee for asking, unless he charges you for an office call.

Boy, I understand your reluctance since he got over it the first time. My boy did too, and his also came back but with the later times I suspected a strain and each successive limp was shortlived, only a day.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 11:26 AM
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$2,500???????????? That's ridiculous,,,
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Old August 13th, 2010, 11:43 AM
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$2,500???????????? That's ridiculous,,,
I'm very sorry, I have inadvertently misled you. That was the lower part of the estimate, just the U. of G. part. That includes X-ray, surgery to scope the suspected joint if the X-ray was conclusive and repair to the joint if needed. I'm so sorry, it was not just for the X-ray. The thing is though, I think you would find the same thing. A quote you get will not be just for the X-ray but for fixing whatever the X-ray shows. What good would the X-ray be if you didn't do that? Plus, the dog has to be completely knocked out for the X-ray and the Vet may want to go directly to surgery, if it is called for. That was our case at least.

Follow up treatment at a special Vet clinic in another town was going to be close to another $1,000, depending on how many treatments would be needed for rehab.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 12:09 PM
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No worries, Longblades, hopefully it is just Pano. He has been on the herbal treatment for a week now, and it seems to be working, he has more energy and walks a little better, still limping though. It is still too soon to tell, but I will give it another week and make a decision by then. Thanks for sharing your experience. I will keep you posted

Thank you Hazel, I will ask my vet to refer me to a specialist instead of seeing her first, if the condition does not improve more by next week.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 12:28 PM
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what herbal thing is ur dog on? did you try regular meds as well (non herbal)?
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Old August 13th, 2010, 07:40 PM
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This is the treatment I am giving him:
http://leerburg.com/pano.htm

Only the Herbsmith is exactly the same one as the one described on the website, other stuff listed there I just got from a health store, and I followed the dosage shown on the website.

Has anybody ever used any of these things for Pano?

And we gave him Tramadol first, but it didn't seem to work that well, he was breathing fast after taking it. And it is only a painkiller, I felt that we should treat the problem instead of just covering the pain. That's why I started with giving him the herbal thing.
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