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Old May 17th, 2006, 12:46 PM
sprayeddog sprayeddog is offline
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What to expect for a 1 yr old lab? (another Matty vent thread)

Well, I thought Matty was finally turning the corner when he was a tad more obedient and less challenging as of my last post ... but turned out he was actually sick that week. He had an upset stomach and was a lot 'quieter' and less challenging than usual. Once he finally threw up and got it out of his system, he's still the same ol' Matty.

These days he'd go 'crazy' on us at least once in the morning, once in the afternoon when we play with him, once during his walk, and once at night.

By "going crazy" I mean he'd bite his leash (if he's on a leash), try to pull me / my wife back on the leash, and when you tell him to "Let go" he'd jump at you, and try to nip / bite your hand / arm. You try to handle him and he'll keep running circle around you, you try to step on the leash and he'll keep struggling, until you've finally got him down and literally sit on top of him. Then he'll finally give up and behave better for the next few hours - until his next incident.

Other disobedient behaviour throughout the day include not remaining down while you've asked him to down-stay, not following command when you tell him to get "OFF" the counter top, not returning the kong to you after fetch, not coming after the recall command, taking forever when you ask him to 'sit'.

In short, he's acting like an untrained dog, despite we've been training him since we brought him home at 8 weeks and has never stopped or relaxed his training.

Those who've been following the story knows Matty was just another active but overall 'trainable' lab until he hit 8-9 months, and that's when he got rebellious and constantly testing and challenging us.

Matty just turned 1 year old 2 weeks ago (we threw a big party for him, taking him out for extra games and extra exercise, and gave him more toys and food than usual but we ended up having to punish him again cos he was again, misbehaving and challenging us ... sigh) and we don't exactly have a life since ~ 4 months ago ... we don't really enjoy spending time with him when he's naughty neither, which is like most of the time.

I know labs take longer to mature, and Matty, from the day we got him home I knew he's a stubborn dog. We've been patiently dealing with his antics and teaching / guiding him to make the right decision. I don't think it's got any better though, and in fact I think it's got worse. His 'nips' got worse by the day and both my wife and I have some bruises when he goes crazy and tries to challenge us. We can't let strangers pat / play with him neither as his way of playing is just way too agressive.

I want to know if this type of behaviour is normal for a 1 yr old lab. I want to know if there's anything extra we can do, or if it's just primarily his age and there's little we can do other than continue to train / guide him and wait for him to finally 'mature' and 'get it'.

It's hard to be optimistic but I've gotta be optimistic at the same time.

I wonder if there's any professional dog trainer in the Toronto / GTA area that can give us some help 1 on 1. We've taken obedience class with Matty before (which he did very well in, before he hitted the rebellios stage), and I've read LOTS of books on dog training, but he simply doesn't seem to be responding to anything we tried after hitting 8 months. It's as if Matty's possessed since he turned 8 mths old.

These days it's really tough ... this morning for example, I used to ask Matty to 'down-stay' while we have breakfast, and he used to be very good at it, being able to down-stay throughout the entire breakfast for ~ 15-20 minutes, and worst he'd get up once, and I'll tell him to go down-stay again and he'd do it for the rest of the breakfast. These days, he'd down-stay for at most 3 minutes, then he'd just get up and walk around / bite the rug / jump up on the table. I have to keep him on a leash when we eat so we won't have to run after him mid-way through breakfast. Even then he'd keep getting up and wouldn't down-stay, and a lot of times would start barking at us too. So I'd have to step on the leash to keep him down, and pulling on the leash with 1 hand to keep him down while eating breakfast with the other hand. That's the kindda life we've been having for the last 4 months and we really can't keep up with this for much longer.

Last edited by sprayeddog; May 17th, 2006 at 01:05 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2006, 01:14 PM
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jessi76 jessi76 is offline
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as much as I love the updates on Matty, I worry of the constant struggle you have with him.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) I remember you saying that you weren't open to clicker-training. I'm not trying to force it on you, but it has worked wonders with my own dog (not a lab, but a very defiant basenji-x). Perhaps it's worth looking into, if other methods have let you down. True, it's gimmicky in the beginning... but if it works, it could be the gimmick that saves your sanity. For me, after a year of clicker-training... I have a remarkably good dog, and a clicker that collects dust. You don't use it forever.
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Old May 17th, 2006, 09:55 PM
kaytris kaytris is offline
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I sent you a PM
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Old May 18th, 2006, 08:01 AM
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Lissa Lissa is offline
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Like Jessi - I am worried at how long this power struggle has been going on for. And since I have already mentioned clicker training, I won't get into it again but if you choose to give it a try, I will send you a PM on how to use it properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprayeddog
By "going crazy" I mean he'd bite his leash (if he's on a leash), try to pull me / my wife back on the leash, and when you tell him to "Let go" he'd jump at you, and try to nip / bite your hand / arm. You try to handle him and he'll keep running circle around you, you try to step on the leash and he'll keep struggling, until you've finally got him down and literally sit on top of him. Then he'll finally give up and behave better for the next few hours - until his next incident.
Since we have discussed Matty so many times, some of what I say might be repetitive (I'm sorry if it is). Since he's leash biting is really bad and it inhibits your ability to get Matty listening, I would suggest you soak it in bitter apple or something strong that dogs do not like (like tea tree oil or lemon) - you might want to get a cheap leash for this. Or maybe you can try those leashes that have a nylon/leather handle but are chain linked.

With regards to jumping - if you let him fall (move out of the way) does he persist? If you hold onto his paws and move backwards and don't let him get down does he stop? Since it seems like you know exactly when he is going to jump, you need to offer him a better choice before he makes that decision to leap on you. So maybe have a toy ready to toss.

Pinning a dog down only encourages them to struggle and if he really hates it, it keeps him from trusting you IMO. If he is crate trained, I would put him in the crate as a time out or you can tie him somewhere to give you both a chance to calm down. Neither one of you are in the frame of mind to be working after all that chasing, stepping on the leash and pinning him down. Part of me thinks that Matty thinks its a game, another part of me thinks he just has no idea how to please you and your wife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprayeddog
Other disobedient behaviour throughout the day include not remaining down while you've asked him to down-stay, not following command when you tell him to get "OFF" the counter top, not returning the kong to you after fetch, not coming after the recall command, taking forever when you ask him to 'sit'.
It sounds to me like "off" is a lost cause...he either hears it so much that it means nothing because it isn't enforced. Personally, I don't think Matty should even have the opportunity to jump on the counter but if he does, I wouldn't even give him the opportunity to make the right decision (and get off) - I would just go over and gently but firmly pull him off (or I would try the can of pennies trick).

I don't think Matty should be off-leash at this point - I certainly wouldn't let him have that freedom (off-leash is a privilege that Matty needs to ears). You have to understand that even if you are doing NILIF at home but Matty can be just as disobedient outside, its sending him mixed signal and just confusing him. I won't even get into the possible safety risks of letting Matty off-leash he doesn't come back.

With regards to the down-stay, if you stodd right beside him and stepped on his leash so it was impossible for him to break, would that work? If not, then I would wait Matty out (still be stepping on his leash right beside him) and the instant he chooses to go back into a down, I would practically let him eat off my dinner plate (not really but make sure you have a high value reward for him!) - he obviously needs to have a CLEAR mark when he has done the right thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprayeddog
I know labs take longer to mature, and Matty, from the day we got him home I knew he's a stubborn dog. We've been patiently dealing with his antics and teaching / guiding him to make the right decision. I don't think it's got any better though, and in fact I think it's got worse. His 'nips' got worse by the day and both my wife and I have some bruises when he goes crazy and tries to challenge us. We can't let strangers pat / play with him neither as his way of playing is just way too agressive.

I want to know if this type of behaviour is normal for a 1 yr old lab. I want to know if there's anything extra we can do, or if it's just primarily his age and there's little we can do other than continue to train / guide him and wait for him to finally 'mature' and 'get it'.

It's hard to be optimistic but I've gotta be optimistic at the same time.

I wonder if there's any professional dog trainer in the Toronto / GTA area that can give us some help 1 on 1.
I want to address the rest of this as well but I don't have time - when I get a few minutes, I will come back and edit/finish my response!
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Old May 18th, 2006, 09:44 AM
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OntarioGreys OntarioGreys is offline
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last couple listed on this page offer in home training
http://www.thepetprofessor.com/pet_p...s/Ontario.aspx
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Old May 18th, 2006, 10:55 AM
sprayeddog sprayeddog is offline
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First of all, thanks for all the responses and support, once again.

Clicker training - I'll be honest and say I am skeptical of it because I don't believe there's a 'magic wand' that could make all the difference, considering how bad Matty is these days. I also wandered what happened if he's misbehaving and I don't have a clicker with me .. BUT I am willing to give it a try since I really have nothing to lose. I'll pickup a couple of those clickers and give one to me, and one to my wife. I'm at a point where I don't mind implanting a clicker in my hand if it works So a clicker is used to mark a good behavior, basically to repeat "Good boy" that I use right now right? Yes I appreciate if you have something handy pls PM me on how to use the clicker properly.

Quote:
With regards to jumping - if you let him fall (move out of the way) does he persist? If you hold onto his paws and move backwards and don't let him get down does he stop?
I've been doing those, and it doesn't stop him. Like I said, Matty's by far the most stubborn dog I've ever trained (or try to train) ...

Example. He jumps up at me and I grab his hands and make him walk backward, until his legs are so tired he'd sit down. As soon as I release him he'd jump at me right away, and I repeat it, and over and over ... he'd finally not jump after like the 5th time. 2 minutes later, he's at it again.

Quote:
Since it seems like you know exactly when he is going to jump, you need to offer him a better choice before he makes that decision to leap on you. So maybe have a toy ready to toss.
We're already making the decision easy for him. A lot of times when I know he's almost ready to jump I'd say "No jumping". The odd time he follows the command I'd praise and treat him. Everytime he jumps he always gets penalized (I grab his hands and make him walk backward, or pin him down with a leash) He still ends up making the wrong choice.

From what I can observe, when Matty was smaller (before 8 months) he made the wrong choices a lot of times because he didn't know, or didn't remember. As soon as you remind him what's the RIGHT thing to do, he'd like to do it beacuse he'd like to get praised and he'd like to make us happy.

These days we got a feeling Matty is PURPOSELY doing the wrong thing a lot of times, because 1. he feels like it and 2. because he wants to challenge us and test our limit.

Our way of countering that, is to keep remindhimg him there's ALWAYS gonna be consequence for making the wrong choice. He'll ALWAYS get punished, without fail, if he chooses the wrong thing to do. That doesn't seem to bother him one bit though.

Quote:
If he is crate trained, I would put him in the crate as a time out or you can tie him somewhere to give you both a chance to calm down.
There are 2 problems. Yes he is crate trained, but unless it's time to sleep, when we crate him while we're at home he'd bark. Now, barking is still better than dealing with his antics, and I don't mind enduring the barking if he's learning something. But I also heard that crate that's his 'room' should never be used as a "punishment cell"?

Tieing him somewhere also doesn't work ... we used to tie him to the sink in the guest washroom and he ended up pulling the sink out (!!) so the sink is loose now, and he was also scratching the wall so there's a hole in the drywall in the guest washroom right now. (I'll get around to fix it when he's finally house trained ... no point in fixing that now only to see him opening up that hole again in a couple weeks)

Quote:
Neither one of you are in the frame of mind to be working after all that chasing, stepping on the leash and pinning him down. Part of me thinks that Matty thinks its a game, another part of me thinks he just has no idea how to please you and your wife.
Well I think he does know how to please us ... like I said, before 8 months old, Matty was trying to please us, and when he made the wrong choice it was mainly because he didn't know / didn't remember how to please us, or he couldn't fight the temptation from other ppl / food / etc etc.

I dunno if it's hormones or whatever it is, but since he's hit that young adult stage he's been trying to challenge us. These days, he could disobey a simple "SIT" command when there's no distraction, and would go wandering around ... he gets praised for "SIT" so I think he does know following the SIT command pleases us. I got a feeling he's challenging us and pushing the limit.

Quote:
It sounds to me like "off" is a lost cause...he either hears it so much that it means nothing because it isn't enforced. Personally, I don't think Matty should even have the opportunity to jump on the counter but if he does, I wouldn't even give him the opportunity to make the right decision (and get off) - I would just go over and gently but firmly pull him off (or I would try the can of pennies trick).
Well the "OFF" command is always followed by us puting him off. But I guess you're saying don't even use the OFF command. As soon as he jumps up to the counter top just say "No!" and put him off eh?

Yeah I guess the OFF command may be a lost cause by now. We always enforce it afterwards, but it is used so often he seems to ignore it most of the times.

Quote:
I don't think Matty should be off-leash at this point
I agree, and Matty is rarely off-leash.

We get home, and we let him out of the crate, and he's off-leash at this point. The first time he disobeys a command (usually within the first 5 min) he's on a leash inside the house (like an umbilical chord to either one of us). So most of the times Matty is already on a leash, indoor or outdoor.

That said, when we play games with him he is off-leash ... it's kindda tough to play fetch with him on a leash ...

But I agree, freedom is a priviledge which has to be earned, and he defn hasn't earned it.

One of the challenge I have, is I'd play with Matty ONLY WHEN he's earned it. So before playing fetch with him for example, I'd ask him to grab me the kong. I'd then ask him to do a few SIT, HAND, HIGH-FIVE, DOWN, DOWN-STAY before I play with him. So he knows he has to WORK for everything.

The problem is, some days (well, most days) he is so disobedient that he'll ALWAYS act up at some point during the game. Usually after the 2nd time I throw the kong out he'd go fetch it, but then wouldn't come back even when I ask him to. He'd usually jump up on to the sofa, which is a forbidden place.

So normally if he's being naughty, I should stop playing with him.

Same thing with taking him out for a walk. When he starts acting up (like going crazy, jumping at me or nipping me on a walk) I'll punsih him, then turn around and go home rightaway.

I thought that'd send the right message, but 1. he's not really responding and 2. he ended up getting little exercise because of it, which only makes matters worse cos now I have a disobedient dog at home full of energy.

So it's a catch-22 to me ... what I do these days is if he's being bad I'd stop the game rightaway, but if I ask him to do a few things and he does them I'll play with him again. Same thing with the walk. After punishing him (literally sitting on him for a few minutes) I'd ask him to do a few SIT, DOWN, HAND and if he obeys I'd finish the walk anyways.

I just don't know if that's the right thing to do...

Quote:
You have to understand that even if you are doing NILIF at home but Matty can be just as disobedient outside, its sending him mixed signal and just confusing him. I won't even get into the possible safety risks of letting Matty off-leash he doesn't come back.
I agree, and Matty is on a leash almost all the times except when I play fetch with him, and when he's been a very good boy (which only happened during the week he was sick ... sigh)

Quote:
With regards to the down-stay, if you stodd right beside him and stepped on his leash so it was impossible for him to break, would that work?
He'd downstay as long as you are stepping on the leash and firmly pulling on it so he can't move ... Now he's a 70 lbs dog so it does get pretty tiring. Plus it ties up one hand, which is why I only have 1 hand free for breakfast.

But at least I've been giving my arm plenty of workout in pulling on it and keeping him down ...

Quote:
If not, then I would wait Matty out (still be stepping on his leash right beside him) and the instant he chooses to go back into a down, I would practically let him eat off my dinner plate (not really but make sure you have a high value reward for him!) - he obviously needs to have a CLEAR mark when he has done the right thing!
Yes we do that. Whenever Matty's down he always gets the "matty now that's a GOOD BOY! That's a GOOD DOWN!" praises like he just won the Olympics.

At one point the praises excited him too much and he gets up and jump at you ... since then we've cut back a bit. but anyways we do praise him when he's doing the right thing.

Matty is always told when he's doing something right, even if it's a simple SIT or DOWN (Good boy Matty! That's a good sit!) and he's always told when he's doing something wrong (BAD BOY! No Bite!) The tones are DRASTICALLY different he can't miss it.


Anyways sorry for the long post, and thanks for all the support and advices. You guys are great and I couldn't do it without all the support and advices from you guys!

I'll also be looking into the professional trainer links you guys sent me. I know it may be expensive but at this point, anything that helps us will be worth it.

BTW We did sign up Matty for the intermediate obedience class but he was acting up so much, couldn't complete any of the exercise and ended up jumping and fighting with us right in front of the rest of the class ... never mind the embarrasement, but it ended up pretty unproductive for him. The trainer pulled us aside after the first class and said maybe Matty isn't ready for intermediate level ... she suggested us to take the beginner class again, which I think is stupid cos we just finished it a few months ago and it makes no sense to pay $200+ to take the same class twice. We ended up getting the full refund and withdrew from the class ... but it's very discouraging for us. That's why we're looking for some 1 on 1 professional help.

We thought we LOVE dogs and needless to say, Matty's been a real test on how much we REALLY love dogs. We do want to pass this test cos somehow part of me still believes one day Matty will finally get over all this and be a good companion and a good friend ... well better put, a good son for us.

Matty is a pretty cute and handsome dog though ... I should really post some of his recent pic's whenever I get a chance.



Thanks again,
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Old May 18th, 2006, 11:34 AM
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jessi76 jessi76 is offline
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I think clicker training is worth a shot. I do hope you give it a try. I'm sure Lissa will provide you with some great material on it, but there also books available. The training I attend is "clicker training" so I got the hands-on techniques - I found this most helpful. are there any clicker-classes available in your area?

it's a fine line between using the crate as a safe time-out, and using it as "punishment". you must do it correctly. If Matty needs a time-out, direct him to the crate, but do NOT SAY A WORD. DO NOT ACT ANGRY. calmly and quietly, direct him to the crate, and leave the room for a few minutes. just until both of you are calmed down a bit. then return. if Matty is barking, don't let him out. wait for that split moment of silence, then let him out. again, stay calm.

Literally "sitting on your dog" isn't going to help matters. bring a motivational prop with you on walks. a toy or the best damn dog cookie in the world to keep him focused on you & not on mangling his leash. something high value. when you finish your walk, give him the reward.

You have to make matty WANT these rewards. This is why clicker training works. The click is associated w/ food (a teeny tiny treat) and the dog learns this quickly. Soon, the dog learns to THINK... on how to make you click, therefore getting the reward. over time, you phase out the click and the treat. it's not a forever thing. just to learn, shape, and reinforce the correct behaviors.
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Old May 18th, 2006, 01:12 PM
sprayeddog sprayeddog is offline
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Quote:
it's a fine line between using the crate as a safe time-out, and using it as "punishment". you must do it correctly. If Matty needs a time-out, direct him to the crate, but do NOT SAY A WORD. DO NOT ACT ANGRY. calmly and quietly, direct him to the crate, and leave the room for a few minutes.
The challenge with that is, when Matty needs a time-out, he's obviously not behaving. When he's misbehaving, there's pretty much no way to get him into the crate without saying a word ... the only way to get him to the crate when he's misbehaving, is to lure him with a treat. But that's the worst time to give him a treat, cos soon he'll think "Ok if I misbehave, Daddy will give me a treat ... hmmm ..."

When Matty is misbehaving, you pretty much have to drag him with the leash if you want him to go somewhere cos he's not going to respond to 'come' or 'crate' or any of those commands. I really don't want to drag him over to the crate and then shove him / lure him with treat into the crate ...

That's why I have been hesitant to use the crate as a 'time out' tool.

Quote:
Literally "sitting on your dog" isn't going to help matters. bring a motivational prop with you on walks. a toy or the best damn dog cookie in the world to keep him focused on you & not on mangling his leash. something high value. when you finish your walk, give him the reward.
And I have a similar question.

So I'm walking Matty, and he's going crazy on me. He's pulling me back with his leash, he's jumping at me, he's trying to nip me, he's not responding to any of "Let go" or "No bite" or "Sit" command. So I take out a toy or a treat at this time ... isn't it going to give him the idea "If I misbehave I get a great treat or a good toy" ??

I really don't know if that is "distracting him from his antics" with a toy, or "rewarding his bad behaviour" with a toy. I'm afraid Matty will associate "bad behaviour" with "reward".

Sitting on him OTOH seems to calm him down ... of all the things we've tried on Matty when he's misbehaving (distracing him with a "Sit" or "Down" command, ignoring him, stepping on his leash, scolding him, separating him) that seems to have the best response. After you finally pinned him down on the floor and got him under control for a few minutes by sitting on him, he behaves better immediately.

I'm not saying it works for all dogs, and trust me it'd be a lot easier for me to flash a treat when he acts up during a walk than to get him down and sit on top of him ... but I just don't want to associate a bad behaviour with a reward.

Quote:
You have to make matty WANT these rewards. This is why clicker training works. The click is associated w/ food (a teeny tiny treat) and the dog learns this quickly. Soon, the dog learns to THINK... on how to make you click, therefore getting the reward. over time, you phase out the click and the treat. it's not a forever thing. just to learn, shape, and reinforce the correct behaviors.
Yes I am going to give that a try.

Right now, I mark a good behaviour with "Good boy!" and often follow that with a small treat. And that's why I was skeptical ... cos to me, that's just replacing the "Good boy!" with a click ... and it's not like Matty has a hard time identifying the "good boy" right now neither.

But, maybe the click is more distinctive than "Good boy". Maybe that'll do all the magic. I am not confident about it, but I will give it a try regardless. There's nothing to lose really.


Thanks for the advice again jessi.
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