Premature Speuters?

[erykah1310]

I am doing as much research as possible right now on premature speuters and finding a vet anywhere in Ontario that does them.
I would like to know the pro's and cons to it as well as any risks for a young pup to go through it.
Dont get me wrong I would much rather wait personally to do a spay or neuter on a large to giant breed dog but thanks to recent popularity in China with my breed and bizarre applications I have been recieving over the past few months I want to edumacate myself on this subject in the event I breed next year.
Having offered money back for the last pups proof of speuters and all have since followed through. I will say that the past 18 months have been quite stressful for me waiting and inquiring as to when it was going to be done.
We all know how registration means diddly to many people who are looking for a quick buck and I am toying with the idea of having the next litter done prior to leaving here.

Lets not turn this into a typical bash thread, and I know where all of you stand on the subject already so thanks anyways. What i am looking for is facts about it and where it can be done so I may contact a vet who does it to discuss it with them as well.
I was suprised to find out that many vets do not do them

[Winston]

You know I think it is becoming more common than we realise. When I was at the vet the last time a women had a 10 week old kitten she brought in. She had just gotten the kitten that week from the local SPCA.

She was bringing her in to have the vet verify that she was spayed because she too beleived that the kitten was way to young.

Here are some links I quickly googled...hope there is something useful there!


http://www.king.igs.net/~brica/esp.htm
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...pop/early.html
http://www.webring.org/hub/reputablebreeder

[mikischo]

If you take out the obvious reasons for spay/neuter which is of course prevention of pregnancies, the following is what I believe to be a very comprehensive report on the pros and cons strictly from a health standpoint.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longt...uterindogs.pdf

[erykah1310]

This is exactly what I was looking for Thanks

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may
exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the
odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

[Melinda]

my god!! I never realized getting Brina spayed put her at so many risks!! bone cancer??? "nearly" eliminates the risk of pyometra?? increases the risk of vaccination reactions? (which Brina has) and increases the risk of orthapedic problems?? who would have thought it, kinda makes me wonder if I did her any favor....How come we aren't told this when we're making the choice to spay or not? or are we just suppose to "assume" it makes them healthier?

[Goldfields]

Now that is really scary stuff,mikischo, particulartly for me after seeing the dreadul pain my poor darling Susie had with the bone cancer. I never want to see that again! But then I don't want another pyometra either. Maybe my next ACD pup will be another male. I don't believe in neutering my boys .

[Love4himies]

Very good list, mikischo, however it doesn't address the non health risks such as wondering, fighting, spraying, that may get a pet killed/lost/thrown out of the house. If you are a responsible pet owner, may not be an issue, however for the average pet owner....

The vet who does the spueters for my local shelter does them at 3 lbs. For my fosters that is about 10-12 weeks old as they are fed raw and grow and build muscle at a much better rate than a commercial fed cat.

[Longblades]

It's not clear to me what you mean by premature. There are paediatric neuters (neuter is gender neutral) and then there is pre-pubertal neuter, which is mostly what the Sanborn article linked above is concerned with.

I have articles on both in my list below. Mostly you can tell by the title which are the paediatric ones.



This is a reading list of articles and papers by Veterinarians, breed clubs, trainers and others on the pros and cons of neutering or spaying your dog that I have found helpful and very educational. Most are based on extensive Veterinary research and also provide references you can check further. If you are wrestling with the question of when or whether to neuter/spay these may help. They do not all agree and one is even a rebuttal of another. One is a link to a radio show interview. One is a link to a medical testosterone suppressant not yet available in N. America but is in the U.K. and Australia. Some are not easy reading.

I think I personally found the first two in the list to be of most help and I appreciated the non-biased way the information was presented. The list is in no particular order, articles were simply added as I discovered them. If the links are not clickable I have tried to include the name of the paper and author in case you have to search for them. I hope this helps folks out and good luck with your decision. A tip, I went to my Vet to discuss the first two articles with her.


http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongT...uterInDogs.pdf
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf...ma.231.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats,
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

http://www.savethedals.org/earlyneuter.htm
Veterinary "Review" Article on Neutering, with Implications for Dalmatian Stone-Formers Abstracted by Carroll H. Weiss
Study Group on Urinary Stones
Research Committee
Dalmatian Club of America

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...vet/neutr.html
NEUTERING MALE AND FEMALE DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm
The Question Of Neutering and at what age
(Put together by Gregg Tonkin, Little River Labradors from postings by Pam Davol PHD and Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP)

http://leerburg.com/pdf/neutering.pdf
Should You Neuter Your Dog?
Ed Frawley, Leerburg Kennels * words are l e e r b u r g.com and L e e r b u r g Kennels

http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/fil...Villalobos.pdf
The Bond and Beyond for VPN December 2008
by Alice Villalobos
Will We Change on Early Spay-Neuter?

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...ionindogs.html
ISSUES REGARDING CASTRATION IN DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.petresource.com/Articles%..._neutering.htm
New Views On Neutering
By Ruth Marrion, DVM

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering
Proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Non-Surgical
Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control • www.acc-d.org
SESSION OVERVIEW - Dr. John Verstegen

http://www.peptech.com/HTML/Animal_H...n_general.html
A non-surgical method to suppress testosterone

http://prdupl02.ynet.co.il/ForumFiles_2/23999370.pdf
Pros and Cons of Neutering
E. Hardie
Department of Clinical Sciences, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA.


http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml
RSPCA Admit to Spaying and Castrating Puppies AT SIX WEEKS OLD
Stan Rawlinson MTCBPT.MPAACT
Doglistener Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc
Should I spay or should I no..? -- pros and cons of Spay-neuter
Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neuteri...eutering.shtml
Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs and Cats A Stark Warning
Stan Rawlinson, a full time Dog Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer.

http://www.wholedognews.com/
Spay, Neuter, and Cancer: Revisiting and Old Trinity
Myrna Milani, BS, DVM

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete One Veterinarian's Opinion
© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com...ebuttal%20.pdf
Rebuttal to “Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete”
Lisa M Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Sect Dept of Vet Small Animal Clinical Sci
College of Vet Med and Biom Sciences Texas A&M Univ College Station TX 77843

http://www.pluggd.tv/audio/channels/...episodes/4njnh
Dog Talk Show #96 Tracie Hotchner (10-18-2008)
Early spay/neuter may be harming our dogs! Hear Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DAVCP on the physical benefits of delaying neutering and trainer Parvene Farhoody on how it can reduce aggression.

http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/a.../art_breed.pdf
Effects of breed, sex, and neuter status on trainability in dogs
James A. Serpell* and Yuying Hsu†

http://users.skynet.be/fa242124/a-en...tion-dogs.html
Gonadectomy and behavior
Dr Joël Dehasse

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...lityReview.pdf
Temperament and personality in dogs (Canis familiaris): A review and evaluation of past research
Amanda C. Jones *, Samuel D. Gosling

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=...s-of-Neutering
Evaluating the Benefits and Risks of Neutering
The SkeptVet – the owner of this blog is not identified but the articles referenced are searchable.

http://www.petfinder.com/for-shelter...ay-neuter.html
Pediatric Spay/Neuter
Dr. Lila Miller, ASPCA

http://k9harmony.co.uk/spaying-and-castration/
Spaying and Castration – What Your Vet and the Rescue Centres May Not Tell You
Pauline Waller, member #178 Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers, - articles referenced and searchable

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-...ate#pid1123732
To Castrate or Not? – Interesting discussion regarding a young male targeted by an aggressive older male.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files...20Behavior.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs
Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of
Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania

http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm
At What Age Should I Spay or Neuter My Dog or Cat?
What Are The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Neutering My Pet?
Revisiting The Idea Of Early-Age Neutering
Ron Hines DVM PhD 10/05/09

http://saveourdogs.net/category/health/
Articles and links to Veterinary organizations opposing mandatory spay/neuter

http://askdryin.com/blog/tag/dog-beh...n-spay-neuter/
Can Spaying Make Dog Behaviour Worse?
Sophia Yin, DVM, MS March 5, 2009

http://www.associationofanimalbehavi...neutering.html
The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behaviour
James O’Heare, Based on section from Aggressive Behavior in Dogs, 2006,

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chat...ad.php?t=23096
The Behavioural Effects of Canine Castration
Hazel Palmer, 1993 See post #8 in the chat forum at Pet Friendly World.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files...20Behavior.pdf
Does Spaying and Neutering Reduce Aggression?
Dr. Polley DVM, 2001 American Dog Breeders Association

http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html
A Healthier Respect for Ovaries (in dogs)
David J. Waters, DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACVS
Director, Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies
Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2009b/0...nResearch.html
Message for women and dogs: keeping ovaries is linked to longevity
To the Purdue Research Park, http://www.purdueresearchpark.com

http://www.rockllewellinsetters.com/...talDec2009.pdf
Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity: lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs
David J. Waters,1,2 Seema S. Kengeri,1 Beth Clever,1 Julie A. Booth,1 Aimee H. Maras,1 Deborah L.
Schlittler1 and Michael G. Hayek3
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may09/090515j.asp
AVMA: Mandatory spay/neuter a bad idea
Javma News, May 15, 2009

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-a...neutering.html
Veterinary Advice Online: Male Dog Neutering

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-a...g-spaying.html
Veterinary advice Online: Dog Spaying (Spaying a Female Dog)
Dr. Shauna O’Meara Pet Informed: http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-a...com/index.html

[SamIam]

Erykah, can I ask what value you offered for proof of spay/neuter to be sent in a timely manner?

[erykah1310]

Longblades THANK YOU
I will be going through all of those links you provided later on and bringing my concerns in to a vet ( which I have since found one local that will do it at 8 weeks) and by premature I mean to alter a litter prior to placement so young.

[erykah1310]

$200 was refunded, all my pups were males except for 2 ( so not all clearly) their owners basically had their neuter cost refunded, the one with the spay it covered most. I have the other female and time will tell for her spay status.

[erykah1310]

My reasoning for asking it is I just dont trust people. I figure if someone is getting a pup that is already altered it clearly would weed out those who are only interested in breeding. Thanks to the recent articles on 1.5 million dollar Tibetan Mastiffs, I have had people contact me asking to be put on a payment plan (this was more so for the $600 000 one) also how much for full breeding rights ( which I do not do, I will co own but never sell breeding rights) and so on.
Since education is working both ways and sneaky people are getting quite crafty at telling you everything you want to hear and how many ads are seen on places like kijiji ect for pups "Parents are registered puppies will not be" and so on.
This is still a long time away so the next while will be researching and talking to vets, especially when it pertains to a large breed like these guys.
No matter what negative I am seeing so far, it gets trumped by my thoughts of one of my pups ending up in a puppy mill somewhere. Which disturbs me to no end.

[kathryn]

I'm just going to skip over any drama that may or may not be here and jump right into what I can tell you

From my person experience:

I have worked/volunteered in one spay/neuter clinic that does about 10,000 speuters annually and has been in operation for over 30 years and was one of the first major spay/neuter clinics in operation in the US. When I worked there my manager had been managing the clinic for apprx. 25 years and another employee had been there about the same amount of time.

I have volunteered in another spay/neuter clinic off site from a shelter that does about 5,000 speuters a year and has been in operation about ~10/15 years. They currently run a monthly cat clinic that has spayed over 4,000 cats in just the past 3 or 4 years at a cost of $25-$35 a cat including shots.

I have personally teched on.. well I can't even put a good number on it at this point, but over 20,000 spueters when you factor in the other times I've volunteered at places. The real number might even be higher than that.

The vets I have worked with have been licensed for upwards of 20 years and have mainly been spay/neuter vets the entire time (it is a booming business in NJ!) and they've each themselves performed over.. wow.. probably 50,000-100,000 speuters themselves between cats and dogs. The one vet possibly even more! He can easily knock out 50-100 speuters a day especially in cats...

Between my personal experience, the experience of certified technicians who have been doing this for longer than I have even been alive, dozens of veterinarians who have been doing this stuff since before I was even alive, other veterinarians who have recently graduated within the past 5-10 years who have been to prestigious schools such as University of Pennsylvania, the combined experience of 100+ volunteers and shelter workers who I've met over time.. we all have one thing we can all absolutely 100% agree on without a doubt- early age spay/neuter is the BEST option in the VAST majority of situations..

These are people who have been doing early age spay/neuter since 20+ years ago and have seen the long term impact themselves and I can not even tell you ONE example I have EVER heard from them where they said an animal (over 2 months of age) had been fixed too young and it caused issues later in life. NOT ONE. And this is between cats AND dogs AND rabbits and we have even spuetered guinea pigs and rats and other critters before too!


So while people can argue about which article is better and who's opinion is better, I am more than happy to share my experiences with you being that I have actually BEEN a spay/neuter tech and more than happy to share the opinions of the highly skilled veterinarians with you.

Dogs/Cats that are spayed at a younger age (2 months to 4 months) heal faster and better than ever before. They have such a reduced risk of cancers and other problems.

I have seen hundreds of cats and dogs from 1 1/2 years to 14 years come in to the clinic that have had HORRIBLE medical conditions from not being fixed. Males have testicular cancer, anal tumors, prostate problems, behavior problems you name it.. males have breast cancer, mammary tumors, uterine tumors, pyometras, prolapsed uterus's, prolapsed vaginas etc.. oh and those are just the things I have seen FIRST HAND, myself, in person.

So I don't care what any article may say.. I've never seen OR heard of any animal coming back with a long term problem from being fixed at "too young" of an age. As for the other way around, I have seen hundreds MYSELF that have come back with problems from NOT being fixed at a young age. My friends and I at the clinic have even taken pictures to document some of this stuff... not kidding!

Just my , take it or leave it.

[erykah1310]

There actually isn't any drama going on here I dont think but thank you for your first hand experience kathryn.
What is the largest breed that you have seen or been involved with an early alteration?
Most of the stuff I am seeing is related to growth plates in larger breeds but nothing that is turning me off the idea.

[Goldfields]

Longblades, that first link is terrific. Regarding male dogs for instance. They say that the incidence of prostatic neoplasms is from 0.2 to 0.6%, that they are almost always malignant adenocarcinomas and that castrated dogs are at an increased risk with the risk ranging from 2.4 to 4.3 times that of an intact dog. Then that the reported incidence of testicular cancer is 0.9%, malignency is considered low for all types of testicular cancer, therefore castration is curative. The mean age for both things was 10 years of age.
I won't ever be neutering a male unless it does develope testicular cancer later on in its life. Haven't the time to finish reading the article but I shall.

[erykah1310]

I am just going to think outloud here now, but I will say I am slowly leaning away from early alterations right now, but do want to discuss things more as I have said.

This concerns me since the biggest point of my guarantee is hips/elbows. I would like to know if these Beagles were from health tested lines or not, or if that would even matter in this case. Also quoted study was conducted in 1987 so mental note... find a newer study if possible.

In a study of beagles, surgical removal of the ovaries (as happens in spaying) caused an increase in the rate
of remodeling of the ilium (pelvic bone)48, suggesting an increased risk of hip dysplasia with spaying.
Spaying was also found to cause a net loss of bone mass in the spine 49.
Spay/neuter of immature dogs delays the closure of the growth plates in bones that are still growing,
causing those bones to end up significantly longer than in intact dogs or those spay/neutered after
maturity50. Since the growth plates in various bones close at different times, spay/neuter that is done after
some growth plates have closed but before other growth plates have closed might result in a dog with
unnatural proportions, possibly impacting performance and long term durability of the joints.
Spay/neuter is associated with a two fold increased risk of cranial cruciate ligament rupture51. Perhaps this
is associated with the increased risk of obesity30.
Spay/neuter before 5 ½ months of age is associated with a 70% increased aged-adjusted risk of hip
dysplasia compared to dogs spayed/neutered after 5 ½ months of age, though there were some indications
that the former may have had a lower severity manifestation of the disease42. The researchers suggest “it
is possible that the increase in bone length that results from early-age gonadectomy results in changes in
joint conformation, which could lead to a diagnosis of hip dysplasia.”

Another study done in Spain in 2004 states the same thing, however still nothing about lineage of dogs used.

[erykah1310]

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenl...vet/neutr.html

With large breeds, early castration often results in an animal with an insufficient breadth of chest for orthopedic health. Seeing the number of giant breeds that I do, I am very aware of the tragic effects of castration on young males. The narrow chests which result are inadequate to support the weight that so many neutered animals, male or female, put on.

[Goldfields]

All very disturbing, a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation really. This bit...

Spay/neuter is associated with a two fold increased risk of cranial cruciate ligament rupture51. Perhaps this
is associated with the increased risk of obesity30.

...makes me wonder if this is why so many cattle dogs in America do their cruciate ligaments? In future I'll be asking if the dogs are desexed and what condition they are in. Might be wrong but they do a lot with their dogs so I doubt it's obese dogs.

That's really bad about the narrow chests. I feel for you, as a breeder, Erykah. I know all about having to keep pups out of the wrong hands and it is worse for you with the dogs being more valuable. In fact, this morning I was thinking how very careful you must have to be that no-one has a chance to steal the TM's. So many things breeders need to weigh up though, it's not easy.

[erykah1310]

I wont get into who could easily be stolen from here, but I will say, it would be quite interesting to see someone open their pen door with Marv in there.
My breed isn't really worth more than the next, its just fads in China right now, If you're wealthy and want to show it, you get the biggest TM you can where as here it is small breeds that are exploited more so as a fashion accessory than anything.

For a breed like the TM though, and their taking a long time to physically mature (females up to 3 years and males up to 7) I will admit that I am very leery on this idea as well now.

I think I will be looking at other ways to put my mind as ease if i do plan a breeding in the future. I think I will be developing a good bond with people on my wait list and really get a good feel for them. Would be nice to set up a network for home visits continent wide too.
Going to toss that idea out to some breeders both in my breed and others as well.

[Goldfields]

Agree totally on the home visits, genuine buyers should not mind that. Anyone who did wouldn't get a pup off me. In fact on one round trip of two hundred miles I cancelled out two prospective homes for a pup. Third time lucky they say, she is the one who went to a guy who spent about $8,000 to get her over Evan's Syndrome later in her life, he is totally in love with her and just the best owner one could wish for.
Our cattle dogs don't fully mature till they are 3 and I don't think they get a brain till they are about 2. LOL. 7 is very late though, how long do TM's live for on average?

[Longblades]

Goldfields - Yes, the information in the link is striking. I'm glad I discovered it. I am now heartily tired of hearing neuter will solve so many things as well as provide birth control, some of which is true, but no mention of harm. I found it quite disturbing that my Vet's recommendations to me on age to neuter changed after she learned I had read the first two articles. Not unsurprisingly she did not agree with every single item in the first link or the second but she agreed waiting till much later than 6 months was desireable. And then she had babies of her own and quit, something that makes me rather grit my teeth, as we were developing a good working relationship. All that money on education now not applied.

For more very, very startling information check out any of the links on behaviour that analysed the C-BARQ data. On another thread a while back we discussed this one.

erykah1310 - brings up some very good points on the assumptions made in the background data. Any good research will clarify and explain the background of the subjects and I believe this is where one has to research the research. Mostly what is available to us simple folk on the internet is the summaries of research. Yes, and dates of research. Very important.

Here's an idea. Can anyone find research that disputes any of the basic findings? Other than the disagreements already in the links? For instance that there is NOT more prostate cancer in neutered males than in intact? Or ortho disorders?

Some of what is available to us is pretty basic bean counting. In other words, this number of dogs had prostate cancer, such and such a number were neutered and such and such a number were intact. The outcome of a higher number being neutered is not really conclusive proof that neuter caused the prostate cancer in any way but then again, you have to wonder if there is not some kind of relationship.

erykah, are there not breeders of TM who write a neuter (boys) of NOT LESS than a certain age into their health guarantees? In my breed, Labrador Retriever, this is becoming more common and the age tends to range from one to two years. Other large breed breeders do this too. Some specify the girls must have a heat. I'm not a breeder but you are. Can you give us insight into what others with your breed do in this case?

I must say, it's so nice to be able to have a reasonable discussion on this.

[marko]

Not sure if you want to hear my voice, buuut DR. Lee and I recorded a podcast on this very topic a couple of years back.

Feel free to take a listen:
http://www.pets.ca/blog/pet-podcast/...w-with-dr-lee/

thx - Marko

[erykah1310]

TM's have a relatively long life span for such a large breed and are not plagued with many health problems as of yet, a few lines have HD but Elbow Dysplasia is quite unheard of but we all still screen for it. They live from 10-14 years however 18 year old TM's are not unheard of either.

I have never been on a spay/neuter contract with a TM so that is a good question to bring up to my mentors. In my contract I stated no less than a year. Most were done around 14 months.

As for home checks, most of my pups stayed in Canada, one is in Georgia, one in Hong Kong, a few in Alberta and a couple of them are in Ontario still ( locally as suprising as that is)

The people i have on my waiting list right now are 6 from Quebec (which somewhat worried me as they had contacted me right after the 1.5 million dollar dog sold in China and Quebec has a reputation for puppy mills) however first stage of the interview process did go well for them, still does not guarantee anything. One person on my waiting list is in Michigan ( this one I may home visit and shop while there) I had a great feeling off of this person but I just am untrusting, I wouldnt even count this one as on my waiting list yet because a lot for this person depends on which stud I go with, and my last one is in BC, first stage of interview process went so so, I have a feeling this person is fishing more so than anything for some reason.

Oh and there is the guy from Detriot who is not on the waiting list nor is his "friend" who also contacted me, want to read an application that will make your skin crawl and give you nightmares??? *shudders*

Back to the articles though,
What I am not liking is the lack of mention of control groups, and also, so many factors come into play when it comes to certain disorders right, I mean diet, excercise, environment, weight ect. My hip guarantee is longer than most because I truely do stand behind the lines I bred 110% however the amount of things that would void said guarantee such as obesity, poor nutrition ect is just as lengthy as my guarantee. So far so good though, I have recieved all my as required photo updates on the litter and everyone is looking spectacular to say the least. All in great condition, weights are where they should be and no one so far has shown any signs of problems.

[erykah1310]

Marko, I really want to hear every educated or rational opinion on the subject, its a research thing and I can't look at it one sided right?
Thanks for digging that up, I will be listening to it.

[Goldfields]

Longblades, I will hopefully find time to go through all your links soon. I sadly sent one of our beloved cattle dogs to the Bridge tonight and the other is nearly 15 years old, so in the forseeable future we may have to introduce and rear another pup. I think it will be a male so I NEED to do my homework. I haven't read anything (yet) that has persuaded me neutering is in a dog's best interests, although spaying can be a necessary evil. I much prefer my dogs totally natural, no cropping, docking, de-barking or de-sexing unless or until it is necessary.
I have a friend who trained as a Vet too then gave it way to raise her family, it's great that she's a happy mother and grandmother now but yes, seems an awful waste.
I won't be around tomorrow, shopping day.(sigh) but I look forward to seeing where this thread has gone by the time I can get back to it.

[kathryn]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

There actually isn't any drama going on here I dont think but thank you for your first hand experience kathryn.
What is the largest breed that you have seen or been involved with an early alteration?
Most of the stuff I am seeing is related to growth plates in larger breeds but nothing that is turning me off the idea.

Hehe okay I just didn't want to get myself in trouble because we all know I have a big mouth So I was just like LALALALALA NOT LISTENING NOT LISTENING as I scrolled through

Largest breed for early age alter? Hmm... great danes, mastiffs (multiple breeds), rottweilers, labs, akita's, pit bulls (most common of the 'larger breeds' around here), st. bernards, bernese mountain dogs... etc... and I can tell you that the younger guys and gals had done MUCH better immediately post-op AND in the long run throughout their lives!

See, the problem with even the larger breeds with altering them at a later time, the chances of post op problems are SIGNIFICANTLY higher, and compared to the supposed rate of 'long term problems' in larger breed dogs, you are looking at an INSANELY higher ratio of immediate severe post op problems in large breed dogs vs. the risk of possible long term problems (does that make sense?? sorry if it doesn't please let me know if you are like WTH are you talking about haha)

Basically, I see soooooooooooooooooooooo many problems immediately post op from full grown or near full grown large and giant breed dogs that it's not even a question in my mind. Scrotal hematoma's are by far the most common and can turn REALLY bad. I mean, think about it.. would you rather have a surgery when you are a toddler and not even realize it ever happened or wait to you are an adult and it turns into traumatic event?

I've also not ever heard in my personal experience of any of the vets I know ever seeing any of the bone related problems in large breed dogs I mean I can ask but I'm sure they would have mentioned it at some point.

[Goldfields]

Marko, I am on slow dial up so doubt if I'll have time to listen to that podcast, is there a transcript of it anywhere? I must say the very idea of early de-sexing is abhorrent to me but I am willing to look at both sides of the subject.

[erykah1310]

If you could ask I would be greatful. And big mouthedness is quite alright when I'm asking for it

This really is a hard subject to wrap my head completely around and I'm happy I decided to start looking into this now as apposed to while the pups are on the ground or on their way or something.
Its not an overnight descision that's for sure,
I am waiting to hear back from a Rottie breeder who has done these procedures for years on her dogs ( she is a vet as well) and hearing her experiences on the subject, from a health standpoint.
Morally, my mind keeps saying, Yes do it. But the need to know the facts and risks part of me is causing me some grief.
My main arguement to myself keeps coming back to "Its one less thing you have to worry about while pre screening" and since it is now time that I start solidifying homes on my wait list and stepping into phase 2 of the process I want to know my plan of action for them.
Luckily the cash return for proof of the procedure worked for the last litter and all paper work was sent to my vet from their vets for proof, but the anxiety I experienced during those months waiting and wondering was a hard. Even though I haven't seen those pups for well over a year (most of them) they are on my mind every day and I still worry about them as much as the first day I laid eyes on them via ultrasound.

[Masha]

Originally Posted by kathryn

I've also not ever heard in my personal experience of any of the vets I know ever seeing any of the bone related problems in large breed dogs I mean I can ask but I'm sure they would have mentioned it at some point.

When we were doing research on when to neuter our guy (GSD) we spoke with several vets (from different clinics) and they all said 'with a large breed dog, unless there is a behavioural reason or other specfic reason, we would recommend waiting untill he is 1'... they all cited letting the bones form as the key reason why we should wait...

[Rottielover]

PM me where they are located in QC maybe I can arrange a home visit