Do Not Know What To Do!!!

[twinmommy]

Not sure, but if she has the ONE trigger, even tho it's a person, can this be worked on with that person? (guess I'm just throwing it out there, tyring to help you

See what a trainer says, I'll pm it to you...if you want..this might be easier to work on than 10-15 different material triggers...

p.s. CF--you're right , my comment about the "plants" (Keeper thread) was uncalled for....just still sooo sad over that one. Some "get ya" more than others...Keeper really touched a nerve... :sad:

[Rottielover]

I found a picture of my sweetheart......

[Rottielover]

It is not just one trigger, but the biggest of them all. I have written down some of her triggers as were suggesting by Doguelover. She helped alot. And by helping me has also come to the conclusion with a 15 month old daughter who is running everywhere knocking things over, wanting to see the dog. She may accidently get in the way when my BF triggers her. Not to say Angel would purposly hurt my daughter, but accidently she can, if she tries to snap at BF again, and my daughter is in the way. I believe This dog has a good chance to over come some of her fear, But not as long as my bf is around.....

[Lucky Rescue]

I find it very ironic that in one thread, someone is being called every name in the book for surrendering/ultimately euthanising a dog that had bad aggression problems (had even bitten her and tried to bite her young son) that the rehab trainers deemed too severe to rehabilitate........and in this thread some members are tearfully agreeing that Rottilovers dog should be humanely euthanised.

I suppose I should shut up, but have to answer the "hypocritical" thing...

IF "Rottielover" had said in her first, second and third post on this thread that she was going to dump her dog at the HS for chewing shoes and tearing up plants ONLY then she would have gotten EXACTLY the same reaction as the other poster did.

Aggression was not even hinted at until much later and after the previous deliberate omissions, lies and attempts to get someone here to adopt the dog under false pretenses. When someone you don't know says "I was lying before but now I'm not", I, for one, am skeptical.

I'm sure if someone here had taken this dog before the truth was finally dragged out, and it had attacked THEIR child, they may not have been so understanding and forgiving that the owner "forgot" to mention aggression.

Now can we please keep this thread about Rottielover and her dog?

Thank you.

[Rottielover]

Thank you lucky. I have been trying everything, been doing everything to make this work. I never ever thought it would have come down to this. My puppy is going to be devestated. when I am not around, she hides behind the puppy. I am not doing this as an easy fix. I have done all that I can do, figuring I still have a baby at home. Maybe if she was not around I would have had alot more time to focus on Angel, but I don't, and I did what i could with the time available. OB classes trainers, behaviourist. And by the way they suck. They tell you they do not know what is wrong, so you spend more money with them....Well I can't do it anymore. As I said my baby will not be DUMPED. I want to make sure that what eve is wrong will not be wrong for the new adopter. She is NOT aggressive, or I would never ever put her up for adoption.......I just think it is better to live in a home where she can sleep soundly, and not worry if BF will pet her.
Pleas do not make me out to be a bad person, I love her to death, and only want the best for her sanity. Please understand I did what I could with the resourses I had

[tenderfoot]

You have to do what is right in your heart for everyone concerned and since you are not taking this lightly I know you will make the right choice.
I am very curious that she is so frigthened of BF. I am sure he is a doll, but even a doll can make a mistake. Can you think of or could he not be admitting to a time when he truely frigthened her? For what ever reason she knows she is in danger with him. Her version of danger may not be what ours is. He could have stepped on her toe by accident, or gotten angry if she made a mistake. For her it was scarey enough to take her breath away. Your comment - "She is fine outside the home" - really reinforces this for me.

[Rottielover]

But as i said, she also will play ball with him outside the home. No he did not ever scare her, other than talk to her and she would cower. The behaviourist said that since she was taken away so young from mommy, and had another home before mine, heck only knows what happend. Also she was sick for the first 3 months that we had her, so if she showed signs of fear I did not read into it, because she was so sick. Only when she was 1000% better did she show signs

[pags]

Rottie -- I'm sorry about what you're going through. I once had a dog who hated my (now-ex) husband. It turned out to be a really complicated trigger involving alcohol and the slightest change in his demeanor.

I guess the biggest problem is we know how to work with our dogs... and it's really hard to tell someone else to do it. We can teach other people how to train and bond and so on.. but it takes a deeper understanding of the whole thing for it to actually work. I have been 'training' my (current) husband for years now - but he still isn't always on the ball when it comes to teaching our animals -- no matter how sincere he is. It just takes time.. and sometimes time is the last thing we have when dealing with a serious problem (and a baby and a BF and a puppy).

If the trainers, etc. you have worked with believe that rehoming is possible and even preferrable for her -- I wish you the best of luck in finding the right people and place for her.

[Rottielover]

That was an option that gave to me the other was euthanization. I am NOT killing her for something she has no control over. I believe that she can be rehomed. I just need some help from the experts to help me find a right home for her. She is great with male dogs, exellent with cats. Kids too she is very gentle.......As I said her major trigger is in my house and can not leave.....
Do I trust her around kids....Yes. they were never part of the problem. she loves my daughter. would I rehome her with kids, yes but preferable older ones, for her sanity. quieter the better. An active family. who likes swimming with their dogs. I can not say everything good about her, BUT she definetly deserves a chance to live a happy active life

[tenderfoot]

I think the triggers are definable. Sometimes it helps to put ourselves in their world.
Imagine yourself as a little girl. You were taken from your mother at a young age, you went to live with relatives (who knows what the father or uncle in that house did to you), you became very sick for a while and then you got a new adopted family who took care of you and loved you until you got well. Now you are feeling okay but you remember that men can't be trusted. You try to get along in the adopted family but the BF reminds you of the man who scared you. You try to play with the family but sometimes he does something that scares you - it might just be the look of an eye or the movement of an arm - and you are so scared you can't breathe again - so you hide (or if you feel cornered (ie the crate) you are willing to defend yourself and lash out).
Now the BF is not the bad guy and over time you learn to trust him. You may always be warey of men in general until you learn to trust. Your adopted mom helps show you when people are trustworthy and though you may never trust completey, you came a long way with the BF it just took time.
So she never felt the security of having someone protect her as a baby and maybe someone even hurt her or scared her. She was too young to feel that she could protect herself so she has no confidence in people or herself to keep her safe. Now that she has you - she can't leave your side for fear of being hurt again. But you brought the BF home and now she is scared all over again because you are distracted by the child, the BF, the puppy and she feels lost. Good leadership is her salvation. I am sure you have been a good mom, but you are busy and she needs you to help her through this hump of emotional trama.
This is a form of therapy that takes time. She has to get through the fears and learn to take a deep breath that tells you she is finally relaxed. If BF can really be aware of his body language and tones I would bet that she could learn that he isn't so scarey. It will be 3 steps forward and 2 steps back sometimes but it is still moving in the right direction.
Rightfully you might decide it isn't worth the wait because the children could be at risk. But it is a rare occassion that we have not been able to help a dog through it's issues.
I am sorry your experiences with trainers/behaviorists have been so poor. I can only hope that we do not fit in that category. I know that any profession can be riddled with bad people, but most people who are in this business SHOULD be doing it for the love of dogs and wanting to make everyone's lives more harmonious (they surely aren't doing it for the money!)

[Luba]

To a large extent I agree with CF!!

I am going out on a limb here and going to say something that I'm sure I'm going to get jumped on about!!

This appears to me to be a situation where the pup is wanted and the adult dog is going to once again be dumped.

It never fails to concern me the number of things people will do to keep their boyfriends and their puppies but when they grow up to be adult dogs that have some issues hey lets just rehome the dog...give the problem to someone else.

IF this beautiful dog is behaving well outside the home then she CAN behave well INSIDE the home. The trick is to find out HOW to do it and to me this dog is worth you taking the additional time and effort in doing such.

I asked WHY was she locked in the cage if she was and you didn't answer????
She is housetrained and you were home so why was she in there??

OFCOURSE if she is timid and afraid of your bf she will freak out when he walks by IF she is locked inside. Here's an idea, maybe don't freak her out by locking her in the cage when he is near / around. Why is she in there to begin with?

To me it seems to be that this 'rehoming' or 'euthanizing' this dog is getting FAR TOO MUCH support and I'd be interested in knowing WHY?

Is it because it's a Rottie x?? Would you say the same thing if it were another breed, maybe a smaller dog?

Having the boyfriend MOVE IN while you're still working out all these problems with your dog being afraid of him was a very poor decision. Then getting a puppy on top of it, another poor decision.

If you're not willing to put more of an effort in then maybe this poor girl would do better with someone else who wouldn't be so quick to dump her!

[Rottielover]

Luba. I won't say what i think you are right now....What you said was extremely hurtful and uncalled for. So.....go away. You do not know what amount of effort has been put into this dog, nor do you care. I got the puppy yes.....He has been her saviour through many occassions. By the way it is not ONLY in the home, most of the time it is in the home. There has been a couple times outside the home she has been growly and barky towards men holding things. I have been putting all the time and enegry that I possibly can into this dog. I don't want to dump her as you call it. And I am not choosing one or the other.

[Rottielover]

I was not home, and bf was sleeping, so both the puppy and angel were inside their crates. They are both housebroken, but they love their crates so when I am not home, and BF is sleeping they are in there......I WAS NOT HOME when that incident occured, about lunging from her crate, I never said I was....

[LavenderRott]

Gosh, if only we all lived in a perfect world!

My dog is wonderfully housebroken, yet he does find himself in his crate sometimes during the day when I am home. For whatever reason. I doubt that he is being damaged by this.

So maybe she should get rid of her boyfriend, her baby and her puppy and devote all of her time on dealing with this dog? Or, since the baby and the puppy aren't the problem - maybe just the BF? And maybe she is afraid of all men, so OP should get rid of the boyfriend and for the next 10-12 years not let any men in the house.

Not all dogs that are fearful have been abused. Rehoming a fearful dog that lives in a home with a child is a responsible thing to do. While the OP is not concerned about the dog biting the child, the possibility of the child cornering the dog and getting bit is very real.

Would I say the same thing if it wasn't a rottie X? You bet.

[Rottielover]

Thank you Lavender rott.........I am not the type of person to give in so easily, that is why I went through many precautions first. To try and work with her. I can not lose the BF, is my daughters father. Or believe me I might have given that option a try. But in my case not even worth a thought. I have been up for many nights to try and see what I can do for my baby....I can not do any more. I really think she would do better where the intial fear is not directly in front of her. People please understand this is killing me........ I am not going to give her to the spca, I want to know where she is going

[Luba]

Well unfortunately I'm not going away as this is a public forum and you posted your information for all to read and respond. I don't care what you think of me or what you want to call me.

I am saying what I believe and what I feel. You did indicate that this was the ONLY sign of aggression in more then one of your posts. NOW that I bring up issues that hit close to home suddenly there are MORE signs of aggression.

Didnt' you just say she doesn't have an aggressive bone in her?

I do not believe she has an aggressive bone in her

So the ONLY person she had a problem with was boyfriend and now its other men on the street?? How easy and convenient for this information to come to light now.

Ok so lets look at this logically IF that were the case, would rehoming her solve that problem NO!

And say a few months from now your precious little puppy starts to act fearful with b/f...what would you do then? Rehome that dog too?

MY dog has most of the issues that you post here and NEVER EVER would I EVER consider rehoming her in a million years.

If it were me that were posting this very same thread and not you, and this were my precious collie Sadie you can bet that I would have atleast a DOZEN or MORE offers of people wanting to pick her up from my home that very day!!

Anyone with any knowledge of ANY breed of dog knows a caged or tied up dog with fear WILL snarl, growl or lung from fear!

[Rottielover]

Never said aggression, said it was fear...... Never mind. I will look for help elsewhere BYE

[Luba]

Look for help or look for those who will just sympathize with YOU and not this poor dog!

Snarling at people on the street is aggressive behaviour, but that wasn't mentioned til much later on....just like with Keeper's situation.

It would be nice if people were upfront and honest but obviously on an anonymous forum thats never gonna happen because it doesn't happen much in real life.

Someone needs to speak for the dogs who cannot speak for themselves.

Poor pup.

[Rottielover]

AS I wrote in a private PM


NOT not compare me to the story of keeper, stop generalizing. Not all owners of dogs are cruel. You are starting to remind me of the PETA group. I feel like am repeating myself over again. I was looking for help. Other options other than euthanization. I have found that help with alot of help and consideration. If you have nothing else to contribute other than snappy remarks, please do not write back.....I need other answers, not to be put down

[Luba]

The answer is WORK with the dog every day, it is an effort. I know personally how hard it is. It may take months or years for this dog to adjust.

Have you taken her to social events with other dogs? Doggy daycare for play time to give her some self esteem? Have you considered enrolling her in some sort of agility class or fun sport?

My remarks are straight fwd NOT snappy, they are truthful and spoken from experience and from the heart.

The question is how much work / effort are you willing to give?

I would suggest you NEVER lock her in her cage again, leave it open for her to come and go at her free will. Securing her will make her more timid and afraid and MAY turn her into a fear biter. ESPECIALLY with bf there.

[poodletalk]

Sounds like a confidence issue Angel has. If you are not getting the proper information or help from your trainers, go somewhere else. I can recommend you a fantastic trainer in the Southshore. Would you be willing to drive that far from the West Island?

Rehoming the dog wouldn't solve its problems. If he has a fear of men, he will have the same issues in the new home. Rehoming an animal, their problems DON'T just disappear. There anixiety and fear will build even more. They don't understand what happened to their family? All they know is there in a strange place, with strange people, with new rules. The dog needs YOU! She needs you to help her!

Like I told you yesterday, my parents Lab has/HAD the same issues as Angel.We worked with her on confidence, when she did something that frightened her before, we would praise her like crazy! Good Girl Lucy!! lots of hugs and kisses. My parents got a second dog, Clyde who's a double for Keeper. He even helped her with her confidence. I would take both dogs for a walk at the same time, Lucy was terrified of birds, buses EVERYTHING. She would walk behind Clyde for security. Slowly she inched her way to the front, to beside Clyde. Now,when we take them for awalk together, Lucy automatically walks infront with her head held high. If she sees a bus, birds shes no longer afraid.

It took time, patience and LOVE!

A dog is for life, you take the good with the bad.

[Cactus Flower]

Hold on, Rottielover. You've said it was fear, but you also said:

she tried to lunge at him through the cage.

As for the cage lunging. My bf was walking by her cage ( door closed) to go towards the kitchen

15 month old daughter who is running everywhere knocking things over, wanting to see the dog. She may accidently get in the way when my BF triggers her. Not to say Angel would purposly hurt my daughter, but accidently she can, if she tries to snap at BF again

her fear becoming worse, and more unstable

I am not worried about the aggressive nature

There has been a couple times outside the home she has been growly and barky towards men holding things

So you have also mentioned aggression, and your concerns about it. Maybe people are getting confused by what seems to be mixed messages.
Don't leave- please clear this up.
Could it be that you are having trouble admitting the aggression problem yourself, because it paints a grimmer picture or leads you to a resolution that you are uncomfortable with?

[Luba]

Either or the truth is the best. Can't get help w/o giving the truth.

If even she does have some aggression that can still be worked on, I've seen amazing things with dogs who you thought would rip your face off!

Esp if this dog is in a stable home now.

[pags]

You know... I realize that a dog is a commitment for life. But so is marriage... And just how often does everyone involved in THAT do absolutely everything under the sun to make it work?

Now... I don't mean to say that people don't do everything THEY CAN to make it work. They do what THEY can... Not everything that can be done. Sometimes the only option left for us is not IDEAL.. but it is the best option left. IDEALLY every dog and its owner would be completely compatible for all time and in all situations.. and every dog owner would be able to give 200 percent to their dogs no matter what the circumstances... IDEALLY. But it just doesn't always work that way. Rottie has made it clear that she certainly doesn't want her dog to be put down.. she wants to find a home for her... and a better home given the circumstances.

I'd be a raving lunatic if Rottie was telling us she's just gonna have to dump her at the shelter or something even more horrific... But she's not. She's been asking about rehoming. Maybe we could all just try to help with that?

ER okay since I finally posted this I see that that's what we're trying to do here. Ignore all of that up there.

[Rottielover]

the lunging at the cage was from fear....as I wrote there I am NOT worries about aggressive issues......That's right. I am worried about her fear

[LL1]

Alot of great advice has been given,I wish it would be taken.

Originally Posted by poodletalk

Rehoming the dog wouldn't solve its problems. If he has a fear of men, he will have the same issues in the new home. Rehoming an animal, their problems DON'T just disappear. There anixiety and fear will build even more. They don't understand what happened to their family? All they know is there in a strange place, with strange people, with new rules. The dog needs YOU! She needs you to help her!

It took time, patience and LOVE!

A dog is for life, you take the good with the bad.

[Luba]

That is why I said leave the cage door OPEN and face it AWAY from the common area where people walk...maybe put a blanket over part of the cage but leave it OPEN do NOT lock her inside.

[Rottielover]

Quote:
she tried to lunge at him through the cage.

Quote:
As for the cage lunging. My bf was walking by her cage ( door closed) to go towards the kitchen

Quote:
15 month old daughter who is running everywhere knocking things over, wanting to see the dog. She may accidently get in the way when my BF triggers her. Not to say Angel would purposly hurt my daughter, but accidently she can, if she tries to snap at BF again

Quote:
her fear becoming worse, and more unstable

Quote:
I am not worried about the aggressive nature

Quote:
There has been a couple times outside the home she has been growly and barky towards men holding things


THE unstable part I meant by more unpredictable with her fear of him.....AS I STATED. one min she is lovey dovey next min she is cowering and peeing

[Luba]

It may be wise to take her to the vet and rule out a thyroid condition.
Sometimes that can cause unexpected irritableness and a urine test as well for any signs of hormonal imbalance.

[LL1]

That perfect home with no men in it,living beside it,or ever walking on the street near it,does not exist.Rehoming will make the dog worse,not better,and intensify the fears.

Originally Posted by pags

Rottie has made it clear that she certainly doesn't want her dog to be put down.. she wants to find a home for her... and a better home given the circumstances.

I'd be a raving lunatic if Rottie was telling us she's just gonna have to dump her at the shelter or something even more horrific... But she's not. She's been asking about rehoming. Maybe we could all just try to help with that?