Nasal Tumors and Intranasal Vaccines

[Myka]

Having recently had my own dog succumb to a suspected nasal tumor I have noticed, and read a lot of stories about this same problem. It seems that it is very common. I have come across a few resources that have suggested there may be a link to intranasal vaccines.

In hindsight, I find it interesting that my dog Myka developed a "permanent" runny nose shortly after getting her first intranasal Bordetella vaccine at the age of 6 years, the second at the age of 8 years. She started showing signs of the suspected nasal tumor at the age of 9. I found one resource so far that outlines a very similar experience.

The Nature of Animal Healing by Martin Goldstein.

It is probably simply a coincidence, but I have always been wary of vaccines, so I think it's worth some discussion. What do you guys think?

[Dr Lee]

I am very sorry to hear about your pet's nasal tumor.

I am a firm believer that vaccines should be judiciously used. Sometimes they are life saving in what they prevent; sometimes they don't do anything and sometimes they can do harm. I have rephrased the AAHA recommendations and added some information that helps people make informed decisions for what their pet may need due to age/life style/ demographics/etc... Here is the link: Acerlux AAHA Canine Vaccines. It also gives you the direct link to the AAHA protocols.

With that said, the topical nasal sprays work differently from the injectables. Most are a live bacterium which is why they should NEVER be given as an injection. If the typical bordetella nasal vaccine is given as a subcutaneous injection, then a course of doxycycline will solve the problem. With that said, dogs, cats and humans, are exposed to bacteriums all the time. They do not cause cancer. Also this question was brought up on our VIN network where Dr Alice Wolf (one of the most up to date specialists I know - especially with vaccines) stated that there is, "No connection whatsoever." That was a post in 2008. While things, have changed, I can not find any veterinary data to give any different opinion. If someone comes across a reputable source, let me know.

One thought. Chronic inflammation can be a predisposing factor to cancer. So any tissue with chronic inflammation, regardless of original cause, may lead to a mass. There may also be no connection. It is difficult to say.

I hope that helps.

[hazelrunpack]

Myka, I'm sorry for your loss. I would have posted in your other thread but the photos are blocking me from downloading it.

Priscilla also died of nasal cancer, but had never had a nasal vaccine in her life. So although they may eventually prove a link between the cancer and the nasal vaccines, it also occurs frequently even without exposure to vaccines administered through the nose.

[Myka]

Thanks Dr Lee, I was hoping you would answer. Being a vet, I was pretty sure what your answer would be!

It is amazing some of the things "they" are finding links to cancer in humans. With dogs also being mammals, it's safe to assume there should be some correlation between human and dog health. I know in humans they are questioning the long-term effects of some vaccines...not so much the microorganism/bacterium/virus, but the other ingredients like adjuvants, stabilizers, preservatives, etc. I know some human vaccines have things like different animal serums, formaldehyde, aspartame, Polysorbate 80, etc. "They" say it's ok, but then "others" say it's not. It's tough to tell for sure.

I have always kept my dogs vaccinated, although I tend to wait longer between vaccinations than recommended. I think it's rather ignorant to not vaccinate, but I do question what amount and type of vaccination is actually beneficial. Demographics definitely makes a big difference.

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Thanks Hazelrunpack. Yes, I have also noticed that the tumors seem to be occurring in dogs with all sorts of vaccination backgrounds. It's really just a thought...

[Dr Lee]

Originally Posted by Myka

Thanks Dr Lee, I was hoping you would answer. Being a vet, I was pretty sure what your answer would be!

...I do question what amount and type of vaccination is actually beneficial.

I don't know how to take that.

Many veterinarians, including myself, also have the same concerns. Having managed one hospital and owned two others, I can tell you that vaccines make up only a small percentage of the hospital revenue. I think that the good vets know - that good medicine, if properly charged for, will bring in proper revenue far above what giving extra, unneeded vaccines could ever do.

It is difficult to always answer what is the correct type and frequency. The fact that you say amount is also interesting. That is under a lot of debate. Right now, vaccines are dosed "per immune system" and not per weight. This means that a half pound chihuahua gets the same volume of vaccine as a 200 pound mastiff. The testing has been done with a specific dose to a single immune system. While a half or quarter dose might be enough for a chihuahua, giving half or quarter of the dose is strictly Off Label Use and generally recommended strongly against by the vaccine companies. Still, with many smaller dogs getting vaccine reactions compared to larger dogs, the question of amount is debated.

The Big Problem.

While many theories float out there, and many pet owners and veterinarians alike would like to vaccinate only as much as is needed; there is a lack of data. The problem with getting data is that it is expensive. And ultimately there are financial considerations. Running tests to prove that pets need less vaccines does not financially benefit most drug companies. This becomes a problem. Some Universities like Texas A & M have done some great testing for this, but getting funding can be an issue. Also getting the companies to change their labels based on data that is not associated with them is difficult. So vets (whether they have personal beliefs over the vaccines or not) must also be aware of legality. If a vaccine company says the vaccine lasts 3 years and you think that the vaccines lasts 7 or more and you vaccinate off this belief; then you are placing yourself in legal risk. If a problem occurs, the drug company will not back you and lawyers will make mince meat of you. Thus we likely give more vaccines than is necessary.

The good news is that vaccines are getting longer labels. Also there are groups like AAHA and AAFP who come out with protocols (which give vets both legal reference and piece of mind). For example, the protocols state that the DHPP (basic dog combo vaccine) is good for three years despite the labeling. This has been helpful. They also state "or longer" but that is vague and lawyers do not recommend "going rogue" on it.

Another piece of good news is that many vaccines are getting safer. With the advent of recombinant technology, this has made many vaccines much safer. Here is a link describing it: Recombinant Technology. It has addressed the huge concern of VAS (Vaccine Associated Sarcomas) which occur in cats (and we are seeing in dogs). I will not give an adjuvanted vaccine to a cat... ever. Recombinant technology has been a major breakthrough. And the new "naked DNA" vaccines have begun the advent of cancer vaccination.

It is great to see some of the "not-recommended" vaccines are dying out; but, it is equally great to see these new vaccines coming out. While some of the new vaccines do not have enough data to support their place yet (it is on our shelves or in the garbage??) it is great to see that we will have greater ways of protecting our pets. There are new vaccines being worked on. I am particularly excited about the new leptospirosis vaccines that are due to come out. Right now the strains (technically "Serovars") that are being vaccinated for are not the ones that are being most commonly diagnosed. There is also talk about a Recombinant form which may lead to less vaccine reactions to the lepto.

Last point and I will be quiet. With the new information out there on how vaccines last for such "long periods of time" beyond what is stated. This is not the case for all vaccines. In general these are vaccines that being used against viruses. And importantly, only some viruses. Vaccines currently are being used against: viruses, bacteria, protozoa and proteins. The vaccines for these other non-viruses do not last as long. This presents a problem for the vaccine against Chlamydia. Since it vaccinates against a bacteria, it needs really be given every year (there is some data to suggest that this particular vaccine doesn't even last that long). Why is this a problem? Because it is not a stand alone vaccine. If it is given, it is included in the combo vaccine. All cat combo vaccines (FVRCP) last at least three years (regardless of when your cat's "due date" is printed out as) and are not recommended yearly. So how do we protect against it without over vaccinating against FVRCP? Ugh... again it can be a problem. My point however, is that just because the dog and cat combo vaccines last at least three years does NOT mean that all vaccines are like this. The bordetella vaccine is included in this as Bordetella is a bacteria and not a virus. For more information on cat vaccines: Feline Vaccine Guidelines.

Sorry if I got like a but I thought I should address a few common vaccine concerns.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Myka

Thanks Dr Lee, I was hoping you would answer. Being a vet, I was pretty sure what your answer would be!

I slept on this before I answered so it isn't a quick response. Myka I think Dr. Lee responded to this extremely politely. He gives his time here freely, gives information freely(and has helped many members including myself) again freely. Your response to his answer implies that he would answer you anything but truthfuly. Dr. Lee on more than one occassion has gone against the norm for the rest of the veterinary institues by stating certain vaccines aren't neccessary yearly etc. I understand that you are hurting over your recent loss, that said i personally take offence to how you responded to Dr. Lee.

[Winston]

I dont think anything bad was meant by what Myka said??

Everyone percieves things in a different way??

why dont we let her and Dr Lee discuss this themselves? just a thought?

[Myka]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write out such a detailed response Dr Lee! I don't think you went off topic really. It's all great information on vaccination which I think most people don't really take the time to look into, and something I am very interested in. As I look into getting another dog I do look at Myka's life, and try to see if there is anything I can improve on, or if there was anything that may have contributed to her illness that I may be able to prevent in the future.

My comment on you being a vet, and me figuring what your answer would be was simply that most vets wouldn't give a vaccine (like intranasal Bordetella for example) if they felt it caused nasal tumors. That's all. =]

In my lifetime I have met very few vets that take the time to educate themselves beyond the teaching they received back in 1980. I think my experience is mainly due to living most of my life in small communities. These vets were always "good" at doing yearly full spectrum vaccination, and doing all sorts of "extra" tests that weren't needed or they simply didn't have the knowledge to know where to begin (imo). Never in my dog's lifetime did anyone ask me if Myka's nose was always runny (it was always dripping...they should have noticed), and when I asked about it, they always just said, "Some dogs have runny noses." I find your knowledge very refreshing. I thank you so much for giving us your time on these forums. I wish there was something we could do for you!

In my dog's lifetime, I had her blood titered (not cheap) to see when and what vaccines she needed as I really didn't trust my vets. I found this to be very interesting information. She didn't need to be vaccinated nearly as often as labels suggested. The schedules you suggested in your above post were definitely closer to what Myka needed, and by following a knowledgable vet's reccomendation (like yours) would have saved me a lot of money and time!

From my understanding, the intranasal Bordetella needs to be given every 6 months to be most effective? Is that really true? I never had Bordetella titered. I don't think you can titer for all vaccines anyway...?

I did find it interesting when Myka and Peewee went for vaccines. I paid for Myka to get titered, and she only needed one vaccine. SO pays for Peewee, and P just gets yearly vaccinations. I noticed that P got the same amount of the vaccine that Myka got. P is 7 lbs, and Myka was 85 lbs. I thought that was weird...I actually didn't know that. Thanks for your comments on that.

I will read your links!

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Aslan, you read very wrong, but thanks for taking the time to sleep on it first, and attempting to stick up for Dr Lee.

Winston, cheers!

[Dr Lee]

Originally Posted by Myka

...most vets wouldn't give a vaccine if they felt it caused nasal tumors.

I wish there was something we could do for you!


From my understanding, the intranasal Bordetella needs to be given every 6 months to be most effective? Is that really true? I never had Bordetella titered. I don't think you can titer for all vaccines anyway...?

I have always hoped that other vets would not give any vaccines that they thought could cause cancer if there was an alternative however it does not explain the fact that so many still use adjuvanted cat vaccines. The adjuvanted ones are far cheaper; other than that there is no benefit. Even if one was skeptical of the VAS theory, there are so many unbiased specialists in the field that speak against them. Why are they still even made?

Honestly being able to talk and work with the forum members here is a real treat for me. It is nice to deal with people that are passionate about pets, learning and medicine. I really enjoy the members here! (they are supportive and sometimes even protective of me )

As you mentioned, there are people and vets that are not into learning new stuff. It can be a drag. When dealing with clients in the room, the common accusation of running tests or recommending medication for financial benefit only occurs. Sometimes it makes me wonder if I should have become a "real" doctor and made the "real" money. So working with people here makes me remember sometimes why I chose this. So perhaps I need to be thanking you guys.

As far as bordetella vaccines, they are recommended "Annually or up to every 6 months in high-risk environments." The intranasal version that Merial uses is labeled for providing protection for one year. For pets that have low risks of kennel cough exposure, then you can always not vaccinate. If a boarding situation arises (or grooming, etc...) the intranasal vaccine works very fast - 12-24 hours for protection.

Well I am back to work!

[Myka]

Well that does sound awfully silly that they are making these adjuvanted vaccines for cats. If I owned a cat I would be sure to not use these vaccines! Yikes!

I guess sometimes it would be a breath of fresh air on these forums as most of the people here are really enthusiastic about their pets' welfare.

Is Kennel Cough that bad? If the risk is moderate (like going to dog parks/agility/obedience classes) would it be such a bad thing to just skip it during the dog's prime years? It is probably a good idea for puppies and seniors, but I have never heard of a dog having any real issue getting over it in their prime years. It doesn't seem like it's any worse than us getting the flu, and I certainly do not get a flu shot. LOL I only vaccinated Myka against Bordetella in case there was a family emergency and she needed to go to a kennel (which happened once in her lifetime lol, since then I discovered in-home pet sitters!).

I have been considering going to university for veterinary medicine. I don't think I could commit to the DVM program (I would have a really hard time being broke that long!), but maybe a Vet Tech program. I just started looking into it.

[TeriM]

Excellent posts on vaccination protocols Dr. Lee .

Myka, I am sorry for your loss .

[Dr Lee]

Originally Posted by Myka

I have been considering going to university for veterinary medicine. I don't think I could commit to the DVM program (I would have a really hard time being broke that long!)

Yes... a lifetime is a long time to be broke. The job drains your financial and emotional bank account. There are so many different ways to help pets.

[Dr Lee]

Originally Posted by Myka

Is Kennel Cough that bad? If the risk is moderate (like going to dog parks/agility/obedience classes) would it be such a bad thing to just skip it during the dog's prime years? It is probably a good idea for puppies and seniors, but I have never heard of a dog having any real issue getting over it in their prime years. It doesn't seem like it's any worse than us getting the flu, and I certainly do not get a flu shot. LOL I only vaccinated Myka against Bordetella in case there was a family emergency and she needed to go to a kennel (which happened once in her lifetime lol, since then I discovered in-home pet sitters!).

I was asked to answer this question. It definitely looks like I dropped this ball back in January 2010!

Kennel cough is often referred to as the "doggy cold" or "doggy flu" and most pets that contract this disease, if otherwise healthy, will recover quite well with time and sometimes the addition of antibiotics such as doxycycline. Cough suppressants are often used as well. For healthy dogs, the risk of complications such as pneumonia are relatively low. For these reasons, there are many people that chose to forgo the vaccination of their young healthy pets for bordetella. An additional reason is that your pet can get other infectious upper respiratory diseases that look the same (and are sometimes also called kennel cough). One specialist identified about 17 different causative agents for upper respiratory infections in dogs.

With that said, here are some things to consider.

1) the intranasal vaccination is fairly benign and the most side effects I have seen with it is some mild sinus irritation in a handful of patients over the years. This usually shows up as some additional "reverse sneezing." So while the injectable form for this is very safe - the intranasal option takes the more serious side effects off the table when considering whether or not to vaccinate.

2) The multidog household. When we vaccinate the young healthy pets, one of the best benefits is that it avoids the young healthy pets from possibly transmitting it to dogs whose immune systems may not be as strong. So for older or very young pets that live in the house, are next door, or may come in contact with them at dog parks/groomers - this helps protect more than just who is being vaccinated.

3) Regulations, etc.. Many groomers and some dog parks do require this vaccine. Sometimes the cost/risk of vaccines need to weighed against complying with rule for access to things like groomers. I find this a little frustrating as I know groomers that require a bordetella vaccine every 6 months. When I have written letters that the vaccine I gave is good for a minimum of 13 months, the groomers say that this isn't good enough and does not fit their standards. What the heck?

In summary I do not recommend vaccinating more often that is needed or for diseases which are not realistically a demographic threat to you pet. On the flip side of this there are also good reasons to vaccinate too. It is an individual decision.

I hope that this helps.

[pbpatti]

Dr Lee thank you very much for responding to this. I think that I will continue to vaccinate my dogs for bordetella....just in case. Since I now have two dogs and the Intra Nasal is as safe as safe can be and lower costing, I will have my Vet administer it this way. Thank you Dr Lee for all that you give to pets.ca it is a great help for us worrying mama's....and papa's patti

[Myka]

Thanks Dr Lee. Some of my questions are "thinking out loud" or simply rambling on. Hehe. Thanks for your response.

I am currently trying to work with the boarding facility here to accept titers as Peewee doesn't do well with vaccines. They want a particular reason that Peewee can't be vaccinated. He is only 8lbs and yearly broad spectrum vaccines really kick his butt. A vet once asked me, "When was the last time you got a measles vaccine?" Ya, good point.