Worst Dog in the world - Help

[whj3857]

I have a 1 y.o. mix Border Collie/Chow (female, 45 lbs/22kg) that I would consider to be the worst dog in the world. I would like some opinions from people who have given their dogs some type of medication to settle down their dogs. I believe that I need something for my dog before any further training will help.

Let me give you some background before you blame the owner, I know it's easy to say it's never the dog's fault..

I got the dog at 9 weeks of age from a neighbor who was intent on having it euthanized. I wanted to give the dog a second chance. Even at that age, the dog was agressive (growling, biting, snapping, barking, and very dominant). I did several things over the next few weeks. 1. I got the dog spayed & 2. I tried to introduce the dog to other dogs. (Other than our older dog) And this is where it went from bad to worst.

My neighbor had a puppy around the same age, we thought that it would be good socialization for the dogs to play together. My dog cornered the neighbor's dog and then lunged for it's throat. I had to pull my puppy off the neighbor's puppy before serious injury was inflicted. The neighbor's dog had assumed a submissive position and had even began urinating. My dog still attacked it. My dog was about 12 weeks at the time. BTW.. the neighbor's dog was a pit-bull mix... I was concerned that more agression like this would cause the neighbor's dog to become agressive and dangerous. We stopped the "puppy play dates" after the incident.

My dog has also attacked our 9 y.o. shepard husky and drew blood. I had to take my shepard husky to the hospital for treatment. The dogs constantly fight. The shepard husky is always the looser in each encounter. My shepard husky is terrified of the Border Collie. She leaves the room or won't enter the room when the Border Collie is there. Meals and treats are times of severe conflict with my wife and I usually pulling both dogs apart. The Border Collie constantly tries to steal the S.H.'s food/treats. When the Shep Husky doesn't give it up, the Border Collie attacks her. The Border Collie usually wins and then steals the food.

I immediately began home training for sit, down, and stay. The dog obeyed the commands as long as it felt like doing it. When it got bored or didn't want to get trained, it would disobey the training. The dog was trained to obey the commands (somewhat)

At 17 weeks, I enrolled the dog into a PetSmart training program where my dog began to terrorize a rotweiler, a pit bull, and every other dog in the class. My dog tried to bite the trainer. My dog is able to do the commands w/o problems but the agression only continued. The trainer suggested I get a behaviouralist. The class did little to help socialize my dog or make it less agressive.

I hired a behaviouralist/trainer who specialized in dog agression to help train the dog and desensitize it. During the training my dog attacked the trainer and the trainer's desensitization dogs, and tried to bite an assistant. The interesting part was my dog waited until the trainer became more comfortable with the dog and he let his guard down. My dog then attacked when she had the window of opportunity. I guess my dog was tired of being bossed around by someone more dominant that and decided to take charge. (I was watching the training from a distance to insure the trainer was not being overly cruel or mistreating the dog)

I can't get my dog within 25 ft of another dog or person before she goes berzerk. Her crazy behaviour then causes the other dog to get into a defensive mode and all heck breaks loose. I have tried to alpha roll my dog to get control of her and she has enough adrenaline induced strength to break loose from me, I end up with nothing but a handful of fur. Pulling hard on the leash doesn't help, it gets her crazier. Loosening the leash allows her to charge the other dog and passer-by. She won't take "special treats" when she gets into this rage. If I get my hands too close to her mouth I end up getting bit. Nothing calms her down. Even after I drag her away from the area she's still charged up and ready to fight.

I have followed the training and the behaviouralist's recomendations for triying to dominate the dog and socialize her, but it's impossible. When I try to control her she urinates on my clothes, bed, or anything of mine. Usually several hours after I have tried to control her. (Usually when I turn my back or leave the room or I'm watching TV.) She sneaks off, does her thing, and then returns to the place where she was originally. She knows if she gets caught she'll get punished. So she waits for the right moment.

At this point, I'm faced with two directions... The first medicate the dog to a point where she can be safely introduced to other dogs and strangers and hopefully break the agression cycle and accept training.. and the last resort is euthanize the dog because she has gotten more dangerous. As time goes on, she is more agressive.

I believe that this dog is the result of bad breeding and I think that this dog may have sociopathic issues. This story only covers about 10% of the problems I've had in the last year. I haven't touched upon the $1,000's of dollars of destruction (yes.. thousands...not hundeds..) Italian leather furniture... landscaping... clothing... carpeting... walls...

Any ideas....I want to get the dog's behavior in check, but I'm not certain that it is possible to ever get the dog to be a "good dog".

[heeler's rock!]

YIKES!! It sounds like your dog was separated from the mum WAAAAYYYY too early and missed some crucial socialization. Your dog is totally alpha over you and your family, but you already know that. For some dogs, it's really hard to get them on the right track and unfortunately, some dogs have to be PTS because there is absolutely no hope for them to ever become good with other dogs, and if your dog is already showing aggresion towards people, that's going to continue until it gets the chance to bite, and hurt someone.

It sounds like you've tried everything and I'm not sure what good medicating her would be. I've never had to medicate a dog before that's too overbearing, but maybe others on here can help you. I sincerely hope that your dog doesn't have to be PTS, but it may the only solution.....

By the way, where are you located?

[whj3857]

I'm in Atlanta GA USA. I saw this website and I liked some of the discussions I read and I figured I would throw my situation out for some feedback..

You have a Border Collie, right? Do you have any issues like this?

Here's an interesting observation...
We have not been able to figure out what triggers the agression. The behaviouralist couldn't determine it either.

Sometimes when a person (w/o a dog) walks by, my dog is calm. Other times, my dog goes berzerk. The other day we went to Walmart and stood outside to get the dog used to people (wearing a muzzle, of course). The dog was fine until one person walked by (did not make eye contact with the dog) and did nothing out of the ordinary. The dog flipped out!! We can't always predict when the dog goes berzerk. In the situations where we think she'll flip out, she's fine. When we think she'll be calm she goes crazy. We don't get the same reaction with the same stimuli. Her behaviour is unpredictable.

Although other dogs are a 100% guarantee for reaction and we use avoidance when possible. When she sees another dog sometimes shes calm for about 5-8 seconds, then goes crazy... Other times she sees a dog and it's an instant reaction...

Maybe I should change my user id to "blacklisted@thedogpark"

Medication may be overbearing, but I need to do something...

[LavenderRott]

Do you know anything at all about the parents of your dog?

[whj3857]

No idea about the parents. I understand it was a friend of my neighbor
whose dog got pregnant. Someone's dog jumped the fence and then
nature took over.

There is a real bad habit in the southern part of the US to not get the dogs
spayed or neutered. As a result there are an over abundance of dogs and
cats. For instance the Ontario SPCA says it's about 50/50 for a dog and
a 10% chance for a cat. Down here the kill rate is about 90%. I figured the dog
wouldn't make it. I didn't ask too many questions I just didn't want the dog
to get euthanized. (And I still don't...)

[Lucky Rescue]

Your dog is unpredictable and human aggressive - very dangerous combination.

If the problem were only aggression towards other dogs, I would tell you to absolutely NOT feed your dogs together, and to NEVER "alpha roll" this dog, unless you want to take a chance on being facially scarred for life.

From everything you have said, I must reluctantly agree with heelers rock, and say the only option may be euthanization.

I think there is something genetically wrong with this dog and she is dangerous. Dogs are sometimes just "born wrong." It may even be neurological. You have done everything you can to help, but unless you want to keep her permanantly locked from people and other animals, which is not much of a life, I have no other suggestions.

[LavenderRott]

You are going to have to micromanage this dog, probably for it's whole life. If there are no consistant triggers, then you are going to have one heck of a time desensitizing, refocusing, or any of the other methods usually used to handle dogs with aggression issues.

Please, please, please, keep this dog away from children. Since you and your trainers haven't been able to figure out what sets the dog off, the presence of children would not be a good thing. It is, sadly, a bite waiting to happen.

I completely understand your reluctance to put a perfectly healthy dog to sleep, but think on this for a bit...this dog can not safely go anywhere or do anything. Is that the type of life you would wish upon the dog?

A lot of times, dogs that show this kind of aggression are very fearful. If this dog is so terrified of everything that it feels the need to defend itself so strongly, putting it to sleep will be a kindness.

[heeler's rock!]

I do have a border collie, but have never experienced these kinds of issues. My border also didn't leave her mum until 8 weeks and 3 days old. I suspect yours left way too young, by no fault of your own. I don't even think these issues are breed specific. Not even chows, which you said your dog is crossed with, have that extensive agression when socialized properly. Most chows can be protective, which might be what your dog is doing, but to an extreme. It does sound like it could be neurological.......

I honestly don't know what kind of solutions there may be left for you to try. It sounds like you've done everything possible and my fear now is that the dog will bite someone badly, and be PTS. It's a hard decision but like LavenderRott said, keeping this dog away from people and other dogs for the rest of it's life will not only be challenging for you to ensure, but it's also no life for you or your dog to endure. You don't want to have to worry about your dog every second you're out with it, scared it might get away from you or something. Your dog is very lucky to have you, but it sounds like there's no other solution than having her PTS....I'm really sorry I couldn't be of more help......

[sammiec]

Welcome to the board .

I am having to go with the majority on this issue. You're a wonderful person for putting this much love and effort into helping this dog. For your safety and the safety of strangers, the best thing is for this dog to be PTS. You can control this by having the dog constantly muzzled and / or in a crate. But this is no way for a dog to live. And delaying euthanization is not improving its quality of life, s-adly enough. You have a heart of gold for doing what you can for this dog. She's been very lucky, but this is a very dangerous combination - unpredictable and aggressive. This dog unfortunately needs to be stopped before it mauls and/or kills your other dog or a person.
I will be thinking about you, your family and your dog.

[SSAC]

I to would have to agree with LR.
Without actually meeting the dog, it's hard to evaluate. But from what you are saying.........
Have you spoke to your veterinarian about medications? There is a med called "Clomicalm". It's like a doggie prozac. Like all long term medications, you have to be responsible with it and have blood work done every six mths to 1yr. As it can be harsh on the liver used long term.
I know of a couple of dogs on this drug. It has helped , but the dogs didn't sound as aggressive as yours. It might be worth a try when all else has failed, but don't let it lull you into a false sense of security. Still be diligent with your dog around others as PTS might end up still being the only option

[lilith_rizel]

I had a border collie/ chow mix before too., we got her at 3 months of age. I believe that the aggression comes more from the chow side. Atleast that is what we were told by one of my mom's friends, who is a breeder, and also by a vet. Our collie/ chow was very aggressive, and mean only if you looked her in the eyes for more than a second or so, and if you did longer, she would bite. We were told that she did that, because she would feel threatened. She bit 2 people, and then we decided that there was no hope for here. We had to put her down. And she was only a year old. Her aggression was just getting worse. "A chow is naturally very territorial and the fact that it was part border collie doesn't help" is what we were told, by 2 people who deal with different breeds of dogs, everyday.

[whj3857]

Just a follow up.. the dog is scheduled to go to the vet this Friday (22nd) so the vet can review the situation. The vet is already familiar with the dog and some of it's erratic behaviour. We are going to see about the medication route, first...

I will ask about Clomicalm and see what the vet recommends.

We don't have kids yet, but we did talk about that scenario with the dog and children.

I'm also sorry to see that another member had the same problem and put their Border Collie/Chow down. It makes me wonder if the mix (Collie/Chow) is just a bad combination ?

Just to clarify, I didn't always do the "alpha roll" on the dog. It was only something I just started as a last resort a couple of weeks ago. I got desperate and had to do something.

I guess we'll make the call on this issue after the vet visit.

But if anyone else has had any experience with any medications that might help, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks,
Walt

[LavenderRott]

Glad to hear you are talking to the vet about this.

Alpha rolls, while once recommended by training experts, is no longer considered a good method to use with a dominant or aggressive dog. You are taking a dog that is already pumped full of adrenaline and putting it in a position where it feels that it's very life is threatened. Most dogs will defend their lives with teeth flying everywhere!

[lilith_rizel]

Talking to your vet first is the best thing. That is what we did, and the vet said there was no hope for her, if she already bit 2 people, and drew blood both times. Let us know what your vet says. I hope there is still hope for your dog.

[lilith_rizel]

Thought you might want to read the stats on border collies and Chows.


http://www.pets.ca/breedprofiles/a/chowchow/c13.htm
http://www.pets.ca/breedprofiles/a/bordercollie/b13.htm

[tenderfoot]

Drugs can be great for taking the edge off but they don't teach.
She does not have to like other dogs but she does have to have good manners. She will probably never be an angelic Golden Retreiver in temperment, but she can have good manners.
This dog doesn't not respect anyone and will not change until she does. She may be one of the rare ones who was 'born bad', but if you are committed to her then your behavior has to change before hers can. Forgive yourself is you do not feel you are up for the challenge, but if you make the committment know that there is a lot of work to be done. Some changes will come quickly others will take a lot of time.
I would reccommend that she be on the leash attached to an adult as much as you can stand it - even in the house and never off-leash outside. This is not to punish her but to create a natural relationship of leader & follower. Where ever you go she follows - no discussion. You are also there to correct every bad behavior she choses and to reward the good ones. She needs to by busy talking to you so that the other 'distractions' in life become irrelevant.
She needs to start looking to you for permission to do things. Like going through the door - only give her permission when she looks into your eyes.
You need to give her a large vocabulary so that you can communicate with her through out the day. Every time you ask her to do something and she does it there is a chemical release in her brain that naturally makes her more submissive and cooperative. Everytime you ask to do something and she doesn't, then she gets an adrenaline rush that reminds her that she's in charge and makes her more difficult to deal with.
She needs to work for everything in her life, love, play, toys and food. Nothing is free anymore. Like an out of control teenager she gets little time to herself - you are going to be with her helping to choose good behavior.
She is going to take a lot of work and consistency on your part. Dogs are hard wired to challenge for leadership, but the beauty is they are also hard wired to submit to good, consistent leasdership. She needs to love, trust and respect her leader and that comes with fair, consistent effort on your part. Setting boundaries for her is very important. If she wants something she needs to work for it and then be praised for her good choices, but also corrected for her bad ones.
NEVER leave this dog alone with children or other adults - even if the children are yours and they have grown up with her.
Good luck

[lilith_rizel]

What tenderfoot said is true, if you do make that commintment, make sure to carry a pocket full of treats with you at all times. And try to make her sit, before you feed her. Our lab Cano sits and waits until I put his food and water in the crate with him, close the door, and I give him the ok, to eat. I only make him wait about 30 seconds, but he knows that mommy and daddy are boss, and he gets in scolded if he is naughty, and he doesn't like it when I have to tell him that he was a bad boy. He wants me to be happy with him all the time.

[heeler's rock!]

I do agree with some of the points you made here tenderfoot. Dogs do constantly challenge their leaders. The only thing I don't agree with is talking to the dog too much. In wolf packs, there is no talking and no room for negotiation. If a member gets outta line, they are disciplined. By not talking to your dog as much, you are helping her focus on your words better. For instance, if I take my dog to the park and I ask her to sit, and she doesn't, I go over and make her sit. I don't stand there going "Red, sit. Red, sit. Sit Red. Red. Red sit." and so on. The more I repeat my commands, the less seriously she takes them, and the more likely she is to blow me off when I talk to her.

Everything else sounds like what I do to maintain myself in the pack. Only I don't do treat rewards. i reward with praise and by rubbing her chest. Mostly because dogs in the wild don't get treats for good behaviour. I give them treats when I feel liek giving them treats. No special reason, just because.

[tenderfoot]

Wow, again I have not made myself clear, I really do need to watch that. By "talking" to the dog I mean communicating a lot - this would be asking the dog to do things frequently throughout the day. We, by no means, promoting chattering on to a dog who just learns to ignore your words. We also say 'just ask once'. But we do not then 'make' the dog do the action, we simply get them to chose the action on their own (by using pressure & release methods) and then praise it. When I speak of rewards I am meaning touch and voice or a toy. We do not believe in force or bribery and I am thrilled to see that we agree on that. I actually think we probably agree on a lot, and have just not chatted enough to find that out.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

[heeler's rock!]

Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

You're welcome!!

I also think we agree on a lot and just need to chat more. Your website is really cool and very informative! Thanks for coming on board!!!

[Lucky Rescue]

Tenderfoot, I certainly respect your knowledge and experience, but personally I feel it's very dangerous to give advice about this problem - a 1 yr old dog showing unpredictable aggression and biting/attacking people - on the net.

Just to recap:

Sometimes when a person (w/o a dog) walks by, my dog is calm. Other times, my dog goes berzerk. The other day we went to Walmart and stood outside to get the dog used to people (wearing a muzzle, of course). The dog was fine until one person walked by (did not make eye contact with the dog) and did nothing out of the ordinary. The dog flipped out!! We can't always predict when the dog goes berzerk.

My dog tried to bite the trainer.

During the training my dog attacked the trainer and the trainer's desensitization dogs, and tried to bite an assistant. The interesting part was my dog waited until the trainer became more comfortable with the dog and he let his guard down. My dog then attacked when she had the window of opportunity

No one but a qualified behaviorist who is personally dealing with this dog should be suggesting ways to handle or correct this, if indeed there ARE any ways to correct this, and from what I've read here, I rather doubt it.

Just from what I quoted above, I feel this dog is a danger and a huge liability. JMO.

[Shaykeija]

Lucky..what is an alpha roll? I have never heard of that term before. Thanks

[Writing4Fun]

I asked that same question here:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=8411
Hope this helps.

[heidiho]

ALPHA Roll is where you grab muzzle, roll dog on side and you are above him keep his paws down and keep him like that til he or she calms down,someone could explain it better. i did it to my gsd when he was a puppy,pissed him off more...

[tenderfoot]

I understand - it is hard to give advice on such a serious issue, but I cannot NOT try to help. We have experienced so many dogs that fit this description who have been helped by clear and confident leadership - that is why I have such a hard time giving up on an animal. Many of our clients who have been to other trainers in our area, and come to us as a last resort after being told that they should euthanize their dog for aggression. We have seen tremendous changes in most (not all) of them, so I am inclined to try. But certainly no one should take chat room advice as the sole answer to such a dangerous situation. I would just hope that it would encourage them to find good help before they give up or someone gets hurt. Thanks for the feedback.

[whj3857]

Just an update...

The dog went to the vet and the vet prescribed a small dosage of Paxil (5mg/day) about 1/2 the smallest dosage available on the market. She also reiterated many of the things that were previously mentioned, such as the ability to trust the dog while it is unattended, etc..

The vet also said that when the dog gets crazy, to roll the dog. But the dog also needs to be wearing a muzzle at all times. The dog may turn on us when we try to restrain it so we need to be careful when attempting this type of restraint. (I already have the muzzle on the dog when I do this, in other words just keep doing it to restrain her so she doesn't attack others.)

She also gave us a body harness type of leash that better restrains the dog.

And yes... the dog tried to attack the vet, assistant, and others. When the dog was left alone in an enclosed room it escaped because it figured out how to turn the door knob. It ended up running around the hallway for a while.

Basically, the dog needs to be "broken down" so that we (the owners) can establish dominance over the dog. The dominance over the dog needs to be more on the extreme side than with a normal dog.

The vet, herslef, has owned similarly agressive dogs, and this treatment seemed to help correct the situation with her dogs. The problem is that this will be a constant issue that will last until the dog dies.

We'll see if this works. I'm hoping that this helps take the edge off her behaviour.

[lilith_rizel]

Best of Luck

[Lucky Rescue]

The vet also said that when the dog gets crazy, to roll the dog

Your vet is giving you very bad advice. Is she a certified trainer?

Recommending attacking an aggressive dog is very dangerous.

I truly wish you luck.

We have experienced so many dogs that fit this description who have been helped by clear and confident leadership

I understand this and for the most part I agree. **IF** you know exactly what triggers the aggression and the reasons for it, it can be worked on. However this dog is totally unpredictable as to what will set it off, so I see no way to anticipate or work on this behavior.

[tenderfoot]

I agree with lucky, your vets advice sounds scary.
"Basically, the dog needs to be "broken down" so that we (the owners) can establish dominance over the dog."
I sudder to think of what you would have to do to "break the dog down". This dogs needs to be working 24/7 - he needs to be grateful to you for every bit of food, attention, play and love you have to offer, and when he can't be watched then he needs to be in a safe place. A muzzle might be good to keep the unpredictable behavior at bay, but it still doesn't teach.
This dog may not be 'reachable' and that is your decision - hard as it might be. But until then you need to get your hands on good advice and a great trainer. He should never be off leash and his leash manners need to be impecible. Start in the house and get perfect there, then move to the yard (adrenalin rush) and then out into the neighborhood as he shows he is capable of self control and he is looking to you for the answers. No recess time for this one, until he earns it - and he may only earn it with very controlled parameters.
Like a child who shows anti-social behavior to others in a violent manner, That child is always monitored and is not given any priviledges until he starts to show a change. But we do not beat him or put him in a straight jacket to teach him self-control. We commit to the time it takes to correct his bad choices, control his outbursts and teach him a better way of being.
I wish you the very best.

[heeler's rock!]

I completely agree Elizabeth. Muzzles only hide the issues the dog is having, and not teaching it anything. There could be something common that is triggering the dog's agression that you could be missing. Once that is found out, there are ways to correct it. If there really is nothing that sets her off in particular, this dog is a terrible accident waiting to happen. I truly wish you the best of luck and sincerely hope your dog can be helped.....