Cities mull forced neutering of pets & Runaway pit bull neutered by SPCA

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

Now, if Marv was to escape (a dog who holds some amazing genetics in his pedigree and a very costly boy for what he has behind him.) and be neutered upon pick up by the non existant animal control. i would be of course extremely ticked off, but I think more with myself.
On the other hand though, isnt holding a dog until the owners agree to alter really taking up resources and space for a dog in need?

As stated by someone who works with the shelter - your scenario is a non issue if your Marv is a show dog. It is case by case.

As for taking space - well the dog is better taking that spot, being altered to ensure that offsprings don't take more room in the future.

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by BenMax

As stated by someone who works with the shelter - your scenario is a non issue if your Marv is a show dog. It is case by case.

As for taking space - well the dog is better taking that spot, being altered to ensure that offsprings don't take more room in the future.

Right now I would have no proof of it though, thats the thing, if at this exact minute he was sitting in a shelter to be neutered, he has never been in a ring. How does one prove that a show dog is a show dog, it gets tricky now. He will be in a ring this spring, but anyone can say this about their registered dog.

Your space taking point is very valid.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

Right now I would have no proof of it though, thats the thing, if at this exact minute he was sitting in a shelter to be neutered, he has never been in a ring. How does one prove that a show dog is a show dog, it gets tricky now. He will be in a ring this spring, but anyone can say this about their registered dog.

Your space taking point is very valid.

erykah1310 - I have to tell you that I know this shelter better than I wish I did. They are not fantatics that are shut down to different scenarios. I am certain that there is reasoning that can be had in situations like this. They are well intended people, doing a job that is not so pleasant. I can tell you that they go to such lengths to accomodate all demands. They have been instrumental on saving lives, getting rescues to pitch in, and yes calling breeders to ask them to take their dogs back. I can CONFIRM 100% that not all breeders are fulfilling their obligations as per their contract. These dogs are sterilized and put up for adoption or find rescues to take.(Just thought I would throw in some added detail.)

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

That comment made me laugh , 14+, as it reminded me of a snobby cocker spaniel breeder who thought she was better than everyone else because she washed her dogs' bowls. I thought "What?! Doesn't everyone?"

Anyway, have to tell you that pups here are born in heated whelping boxes and sleep on very expensive(but at least hard wearing) dry bed. From birth until the dam stops any discharge they have clean flannalette sheeting over that because it is easier to wash than dry bed, it drys faster. I have a great collection of stuffed toys for baby pups. I forget who complained about the cost of registered pups but I can guarantee I've never made a cent because of giving litters the care I think they deserve. And I am certainly not alone.

My point I was trying to make GF, is that this is not a recurring cost. Breeders have the whelping boxes, the flannelet sheeting (which btw is not that expensive here and can be picked up for next to nothing at second hand stores), the toys (you said yourself you keep for baby pups). You are not going out and buying brand new every time you breed as LP is doing now with her foster litter. Breeders can also write off a lot of those expenses because it is a business. People who foster can not write off their expenses. It's an old argument and not one about to be solved here.

Now back to case at point. I truly believe these shelters are on the right track. Neutering of strays needs to happen in order to help the overpopulation. That is the whole crux of the matter, isn't it? If medical causes are shown, as in Nookie's situation, of course then it needs to be written in as part of their "laws" that neutering can't happen. But I can't see Nookie taking off.
I would think what they are trying to do is to cut back on repeat offenders - the dogs that always show up at their door. So if a "show dog" kept escaping then yes, it should not be given any more chance than an "average Joe's dog". Obviously the owner does not care much about their dog if that keeps on happening.
I am definitely in favour of all cats being neutered. Their situation is so heartbreaking at this time it requires drastic measures. The euth rate for cats is chilling.
As I said before it all goes back to education. We need a Canadawide blitz to be run on TV, radio, billboards, etc for about a month to get it through people's heads that we are in a crisis situation. We need to educate people about not buying from millers, brokers, bybs, pet stores (unless working with a shelter), etc. We need to show horrific situations such as animals being euthed, puppy mills being busted, etc. Maybe then it will get through people heads. Maybe. But there will always be those s that breed "just because".

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

We need to show horrific situations such as animals being euthed, puppy mills being busted, etc. Maybe then it will get through people heads. Maybe. But there will always be those s that breed "just because".

You know 14+K - as I have seen literally hundreds of euthanasias...maybe this is why I am so drastic in my thought process. Puppy mills are horrific to see and places with gas chambers...well I don't even want to talk about this.

Yes 14+K you are right...maybe shock is the only recourse.

I also agree 100% with the SPCA policy that is in conjunction with the demands of the municipality. I know for a fact that one particular dog will never see the day that she must endure another litter. And yes, I am darn happy about that.

Bottom line - and again, my opinion..I think that they are doing well by the animals in question, are helping reduce the overpopulation and are also providing a service that I hope extends to more municipalities that they have contracts with.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

We need a Canadawide blitz to be run on TV, radio, billboards, etc for about a month to get it through people's heads that we are in a crisis situation. We need to show horrific situations such as animals being euthed, puppy mills being busted, etc. Maybe then it will get through people heads. Maybe.

IMO this will not help. Human brains are funny they block out what they don't want to see or hear the rest they bock out. and to the irresponsible owners that doesn't care it won't make a difference.
they will just turn their backs and walk away.
I've seen it

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by breeze

IMO this will not help. Human brains are funny they block out what they don't want to see or hear the rest they bock out. and to the irresponsible owners that doesn't care it won't make a difference.
they will just turn their backs and walk away.
I've seen it

What do you think would help breeze? I'm open to any suggestions. Especially dealing with the cat crisis.
When I was taking my degree one of the things I learned was how repeated advertising swings the market. That's how companies sell their products. They flood the market with advertising. People's minds work in mysterious ways. They may block out the images and sounds for a while but they eventually stick. Look at McD's advertising campaign. In it's heyday how many people couldn't sing the jingle for Big Macs? Not many. And Tide - look how successful it is with pretty basic commercials. Everyone knows what Tide is. That's why I said run the ads, etc for about a month regularly and often. Eventually the subconscious will retain it. JM

You are right. To the irresponsible people it won't. But to the ones that are simple uneducated it may.

[aslan]

Even if the adds only got through to say 25% of the breeders and morons,,that's 25% that wont be breeding anymore or thinking their dog is better off intact.

Erykah you would be able to prove that Marv is show stock,,i assume you have his papers showing he is show line..

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by breeze

Human brains are funny they block out what they don't want to see or hear the rest they bock out. and to the irresponsible owners that doesn't care it won't make a difference.
they will just turn their backs and walk away.
I've seen it

I know you have and you made the very best effort to help in that case . If anything, you played a very important role in teaching some people what the responsibilities of pet guardianship is all about. You educated. Chances are these folk won't make the same mistake again because of you .

[breeze]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

What do you think would help breeze? I'm open to any suggestions. Especially dealing with the cat crisis.
When I was taking my Business Marketing degree one of the things I learned was how repeated advertising swings the market. That's how companies sell their products. They flood the market with advertising. People's minds work in mysterious ways. They may block out the images and sounds for a while but they eventually stick. Look at McD's advertising campaign. In it's heyday how many people couldn't sing the jingle for Big Macs? Not many. And Tide - look how successful it is with pretty basic commercials. Everyone knows what Tide is. That's why I said run the ads, etc for about a month regularly and often. Eventually the subconscious will retain it. JM

I don't know
but take the cigs adds on pkgs even how gross those are people still buy the cigs, even the comercials don't work for smokers.
McD's is fun and cheep why wouldn't it work?? and tide everyone use laundry soap, everyone wants clean cloths
I wish I had an easy answer but I don't..

I know someone that has a dog he is fixed cause they got him after it was done, then they required an other dog female, she is not fixed, and not planning on fixing her even thought they know the risks. (no medical reason for them not to fix her, and not a show dog) I have talked to them until I blue in the face... it all comes down to money (even though I have given them a low cost clinic) they just don't feel the "need" to do this... even with all the information, pictures and such that was given to them they still don't feel the need to do this. they turn a blind eye

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by breeze

... even with all the information, pictures and such that was given to them they still don't feel the need to do this. they turn a blind eye

Like lots of ppl, they won't do anything about it until it affects them in some negative way. At least you've provided the information so that if they're ever ready, they'll know what to do.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by breeze

I don't know
but take the cigs adds on pkgs even how gross those are people still buy the cigs, even the comercials don't work for smokers.
McD's is fun and cheep why wouldn't it work?? and tide everyone use laundry soap, everyone wants clean cloths
I wish I had an easy answer but I don't..

I know someone that has a dog he is fixed cause they got him after it was done, then they required an other dog female, she is not fixed, and not planning on fixing her even thought they know the risks. (no medical reason for them not to fix her, and not a show dog) I have talked to them until I blue in the face... it all comes down to money (even though I have given them a low cost clinic) they just don't feel the "need" to do this... even with all the information, pictures and such that was given to them they still don't feel the need to do this. they turn a blind eye

The cigarette pics don't work because people are addicted to cigarettes and think that the pics portrayed on the packages will never happen to them. I have a little inside as to how a smoker's mind works. I smoked for 32 years.
The point I was trying to make by pointing out those particular ads is that repeated exposure to their ads is what has helped drive up the market's wanting that particular product. If McD's didn't have the marketing program they have it would be just another fast food place in a sea of them. Mc'Ds spends at least 10% of their income on marketing so we know about their product. If Tide didn't flood the TV audience about how good their product is what stops people from going in and buying something cheaper? They wouldn't know that Tide is supposed to work better without that advertising. They would only see that it costs more than other products. Without their advertising blitz what product do you think consumers would buy?

[breeze]

I do understand your point 14+

I just feel that no matter what you/we do, pet owners that don't give a rats a$$ will do what ever they want, and see what ever they want and hear what ever they want .

don't get me wrong I will still talk to I'm blue in the face maybe I will get through to at least one person.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by breeze

I know someone that has a dog he is fixed cause they got him after it was done, then they required an other dog female, she is not fixed, and not planning on fixing her even thought they know the risks. (no medical reason for them not to fix her, and not a show dog) I have talked to them until I blue in the face... it all comes down to money (even though I have given them a low cost clinic) they just don't feel the "need" to do this... even with all the information, pictures and such that was given to them they still don't feel the need to do this. they turn a blind eye

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Like lots of ppl, they won't do anything about it until it affects them in some negative way. At least you've provided the information so that if they're ever ready, they'll know what to do.

You are right LP. Education is the key. At least I think it is. Maybe after that dog has an oops pregnancy or two those people may look at things differently. All we can do is provide the information to people. We can't force them to do anything. At least if they are aware there is a problem then they might think twice about their actions. Right now it's sad to say a lot of people just don't know there is a problem.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by breeze

don't get me wrong I will still talk to I'm blue in the face maybe I will get through to at least one person.

And that's all you can do. If it makes you feel any better you can think of me here doing that exact same thing - trying to get through to just one person.

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by breeze

I don't know
but take the cigs adds on pkgs even how gross those are people still buy the cigs, even the comercials don't work for smokers.

Its different though, this is a terrible addiction, I'm not addicted to breeding my dogs.

I'm sure the miller on the next road from me is though not so much addicted to the dog breeding experience, but to the financial gain they get with their pups.

My man had a conversation with these people and they were boasting that they made $40 000 a year on their pups.
If people would stop purchasing their dogs, then they would stop breeding them, but its an easy buck to them and thats all. However at $300 a pup, those not wanting to go through an application or waiting list from a reputable breeder scoop the pups up like they're going out of style.
No one would know that they had upwards of 60 dogs in a house trailer in the back of their property, they're never out, so they wouldnt ever risk being picked up and speutered.

SPCA has been called countless times, they had all their dogs taken twice but got them all back both times. Every other time I dont even think they investigated.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

SPCA has been called countless times, they had all their dogs taken twice but got them all back both times. Every other time I dont even think they investigated.

If they have shelter, food and water, they are 'clean' and in good shape , there is nothing that the SPCA nor Anima Quebec can do. All they can do if they see an infraction is to provide steps that must be taken and then follow up visit(s). Stinks doesn't it? Laws definately need to be changed. WOW - $40,000 on pups alone. Disgusting isn't it.

[erykah1310]

Absolutely is disgusting, everytime I hear that someone purchased one of the pups my heart breaks.
And want to talk about health problems... I have heard horror stories of some things these pups are born with. Is it because they are milled pups? Most likely, but you think about it, the amount of litters had in this one trailer in a year is more than I would have in say 15 years of breeding TM's.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by erykah1310

Its different though, this is a terrible addiction,

yes I know

But what I'm saying is that scare tactics just doesn't work especially on owners that don't care. they will just walk away when pushed or backed against a wall.
these people don't care about the law either, they think they are above it..

I know some people will buy from puppymills, pet store pups cause of the cost, there's no questions asked, sign a contract but no follow ups..
I know people that went to these places cause they were refused at rescues or shelters even the SPCA cause of fencing or little kids or cause they didn't like the idea of home visits..

and the majority want what they want, when they want it, no waiting, no restrictions, no one to answer to.


sorry I think I'm off topic

[BMDLuver]

Here is my two cents on how to control the problem by reducing the numbers:

1) Each breeder that supplies a pet store must pay a licensing fee to do so. Each puppy from that breeder is speutered before going to the pet store. ( I am using the term breeder loosely here folks!) Thus we have started reducing the Oops that folks claim they have... We have also reduced the number of health issues seen down the road as genetic defects cannot keep producing..

2) Absolutely no advertising on the internet sites as in Lespacs, Kijiji, etc for animals. Only licensed breeders may advertise on the www.

3) Breeders (and now I mean CKC types, that do testing etc...) have and enforce in their contract that should someone purchase a puppy and not show the puppy by two years of age that they are obliged to sterilise that once was puppy. Breeders are restricted to two litters in a lifetime from one bitch. Stud owners are required to breed only to a bitch that is fully certified and health cleared. Failure to do these things results in loss of Registration for the breeder.

4) Any dog that is used for breeding purposes and genetic defects or heriditary issues are noted by a veterinarian are required to be sterilised. Veterinarians are required to report these defects to the Registry.

5) Your dog gets picked up by AC once, it's this fee. Your dog gets picked up a second time the fee goes up. Your dog gets picked up a third time and you lose the right to own that dog as obviously you aren't keeping your dog very safe.

These are just ideas but at the end of the day I think at least some of them would reduce the numbers. My experience I'm afraid is mainly with dogs so I don't know how things work with cats.

[erykah1310]

Thats our society today though, we want what we want and when we want it. All of us are guilty of it to some extent. Be it our groceries, pets, ect...

[erykah1310]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

2) Absolutely no advertising on the internet sites as in Lespacs, Kijiji, etc for animals. Only licensed breeders may advertise on the www.

I think these free sites should ONLY be for registered rescues. If you are a breeder, you have a paid website and your breed club links to you. They dont use Kijiji or the others. However right now on my show lists I'm on, they are talking about all flooding kijiji and setting the bar high for byb'ers. We have all seen the poodledoodles, cocadoodlepoos ect that are listed for well over $2500. Hopefully if people saw all sorts of guarantees from reputable breeders and then nothing from byb'ers plus contracts ect it could open their eyes to the difference.
Its just a debate going on right now.

3) Breeders (and now I mean CKC types, that do testing etc...) have and enforce in their contract that should someone purchase a puppy and not show the puppy by two years of age that they are obliged to sterilise that once was puppy. Breeders are restricted to two litters in a lifetime from one bitch. Stud owners are required to breed only to a bitch that is fully certified and health cleared. Failure to do these things results in loss of Registration for the breeder.

In my contract pups are required to be spayed/neutered by 2 years old, I offered a $300 refund once i recieved proof of said surgery.

5) Your dog gets picked up by AC once, it's this fee. Your dog gets picked up a second time the fee goes up. Your dog gets picked up a third time and you lose the right to own that dog as obviously you aren't keeping your dog very safe.

YES

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by BenMax

Really?. Wow sad that they could not pass on the same courtesy of spending a fraction of money to help an animal in need that is a breed that they hold near and dear. How selfish really. Is one dog really going to kill their wallet?

I never implied that breeders are heartless, but I can tell now that they are selfish if they cannot lend a hand.

And no - they absolutely do not have to be anyone's saviour - we can just leave that up to volunteers, rescues and shelters that open their arms to any breed or mutt for that matter. Not a problem as none of them think about the costs incurred. It certainly separates us all now doesn't it.

I wonder how many breeders/show exhibitors there are like me out there that are already caring for more than one dog that did not make the grade as a show dog? I personally know plenty of them. People who do their bit by looking after what they've bred rather than rehoming them in homes that are needed for your homeless dogs? I won't embarrass myself by counting how many of mine have just been much loved pets. Also, many people show dogs as a hobby, not as a business, so no, they don't get it easy, off their tax. A lot are pensioners, usually the ones who can't kick the dog showing addiction, and are battling to manage. None are making $40,000 annually selling the pups that are making your life so hard. So no, I don't think we're that different, it's just that we, the ethical breeders/showies, have to be responsible for what we breed first and foremost, and when we get into difficulties with bills, and we certainly do from time to time, we manage somehow , without dumping our dogs, without asking for help. I have 8 dogs at the moment, only 3 of which did well in the ring, be thankful I am not asking someone just like you to find homes for the other 5.

I still say that the judgement of certain people on this forum is clouded by the terrible things they are having to deal with, and my heart goes out to you, but I believe you are picking on the wrong people.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

I still say that the judgement of certain people on this forum is clouded by the terrible things they are having to deal with, and my heart goes out to you, but I believe you are picking on the wrong people.

possibly some members views are abit jaded,,also possible that some members are a wee bit neive because they don't see what actually happens to these unwanted animal. How many have actually seen a dog or should i say several dogs at the same time, gassed to death(saves money to mass gas). It isn't nice and peaceful like when fifi is put down at the vets. just my

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

Here is my two cents on how to control the problem by reducing the numbers:



3) Breeders (and now I mean CKC types, that do testing etc...) have and enforce in their contract that should someone purchase a puppy and not show the puppy by two years of age that they are obliged to sterilise that once was puppy. Breeders are restricted to two litters in a lifetime from one bitch. Stud owners are required to breed only to a bitch that is fully certified and health cleared. Failure to do these things results in loss of Registration for the breeder.

4) Any dog that is used for breeding purposes and genetic defects or heriditary issues are noted by a veterinarian are required to be sterilised. Veterinarians are required to report these defects to the Registry.


These are just ideas but at the end of the day I think at least some of them would reduce the numbers. My experience I'm afraid is mainly with dogs so I don't know how things work with cats.

On those two points, BMDLuver, our Canine Councils come down hard here on people breeding from females too early or too often, they get fined or their m'ship suspended. They also have to now do any genetic testing that is available for their breed. As for stud dogs ....
A member shall not permit any of that member's pure bred dogs to be mated to a dog of a different breed, to a cross bred dog, to an unregistered dog of the same breed, or to a dog not on the main register .......

You have some good ideas IMO.

[BMDLuver]

The responsibility of a breeder is to care for all they put into this world. I thought that was a given? At least it is with the breeders I know. A reputable breeder is a responsible breeder, that should be a given. A breeder who refuses to take a dog back shouldn't be a breeder IMHO. So I don't think that anyone is refuting a responsible breeder doing for their breed but rather that sadly there are many irresponsible breeders out there as well. I think it is those who need to step up to the plate and take responsibility. If you love a breed then no matter what it takes, you care for the breed for it's lifetime. Caring doesn't just mean feeding, housing and loving but promoting the breed, assisting those bred who didn't have responsible breeders and educating the public on what a responsible breeder means and how to identify one. It also means that when you don't have a dog or pup available to a family looking that you point them in the direction of rescue or help them to find another breeder with your ethics who does have a suitable candidate. The bottom line is stand by your breed at all times and promote the breed to the best of your abilities. If that is what you do then Kudos to you as that is what everyone should do.

It's the indiscriminate breeders that unfortunately taint it for all the breeders doing the right thing. Breeding for volume is wrong, breeding for profit is wrong in my books. Those are the cases most seen by many of the folks who rescue and work with shelters. I happen to be fortunate enough to know some really great breeders who will bend over backwards to assist their breed in need but not all have that priveledge.

So I think that generalities are not necessarily a good thing. It's not an all or nothing kind of deal but rather a case of looking at each individual not as the group in whole? Make some sense?

[BMDLuver]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

On those two points, BMDLuver, our Canine Councils come down hard here on people breeding from females too early or too often, they get fined or their m'ship suspended. They also have to now do any genetic testing that is available for their breed. As for stud dogs ....
A member shall not permit any of that member's pure bred dogs to be mated to a dog of a different breed, to a cross bred dog, to an unregistered dog of the same breed, or to a dog not on the main register .......

You have some good ideas IMO.

Thanks. I would hazard that you are in the UK? Sorry if I am not UTD on folks on the board. Sadly the CKC and AKC are governed much more laxly which allows for some pretty unethical practices to occur. These cases drive the breeders I know around the bend because it can take a few years to finally have enough concrete evidence to have a breeders rights revoked. In the interim they are continuing on their merry way.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by aslan

possibly some members views are abit jaded,,also possible that some members are a wee bit neive because they don't see what actually happens to these unwanted animal. How many have actually seen a dog or should i say several dogs at the same time, gassed to death(saves money to mass gas). It isn't nice and peaceful like when fifi is put down at the vets. just my

Oh, I think some TV advert's at say 7pm, or whenever people are most likely to be sitting down to dinner, would be a good thing so people do wake up to reality. Not just showing euthanasia but what can go wrong if females aren't speyed - pyometra - and the problems they can get into when whelping. Maybe a vet explaining the costs, because on some level a bit of this might sink in. Also, do you have anyone teaching school children about how to care for dogs? Our Canine Council has teams touring the schools.

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by BMDLuver

Thanks. I would hazard that you are in the UK? Sorry if I am not UTD on folks on the board. Sadly the CKC and AKC are governed much more laxly which allows for some pretty unethical practices to occur. These cases drive the breeders I know around the bend because it can take a few years to finally have enough concrete evidence to have a breeders rights revoked. In the interim they are continuing on their merry way.

No, I'm in Australia, in Victoria, and here we get people named and shamed each month in our gazette, fined and/or suspended if they do the wrong thing. We have Codes of Conduct we must abide by as breeders, as exhibitors(refusing to take a ribbon or throwing it on the ground, $300)(trying to stamp out poor sportsmanship), even the Judges have their Code of Conduct, and the Affiliates. Some might think it's being over governed but I reckon it's all good.

[BMDLuver]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

No, I'm in Australia, in Victoria, and here we get people named and shamed each month in our gazette, fined and/or suspended if they do the wrong thing. We have Codes of Conduct we must abide by as breeders, as exhibitors(refusing to take a ribbon or throwing it on the ground, $300)(trying to stamp out poor sportsmanship), even the Judges have their Code of Conduct, and the Affiliates. Some might think it's being over governed but I reckon it's all good.

I wish that were the case in North America. I think if it were then it would clean up an awful lot of the problems we see.

You asked about schools here. Sadly there are no programs really in place to educate the youth of today. I have done a few things with my daughters former school and did another at their summer camp. It went over very well and I had little children listening for an hour about that puppy in the pet shop window and it's means of getting there. Of course, I had two live subjects that helped bring the point home. I have offered in our new area but it was indicated that so many of the kids are farm kids who know a lot about animals and that there are rescues in the area. I would hazard that they don't really have the true picture but I'm not one to beat a dead horse too loudly so I will be patient and try again at a later date.