Cities mull forced neutering of pets & Runaway pit bull neutered by SPCA

[hazelrunpack]

I think it's part of the breed standards as set by the kennel clubs because their stated goal is to improve the breed. That means using champioin stock that has passed the tests of the standard to get there. Or using master hunters that have passed tests of performance. If you're encouraging breeding only from proven individuals, they need to be intact...

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by hazelrunpack

The problem with enforced spay/neuter is that it doesn't address the problem, which is irresponsible ownership. You can pass laws to require all legitimate, ethical breeders to cease and desist--they will because they're ethical and law-abiding. But 20 years from the time the law goes into effect, your shelters will still be overflowing and there will still be a problem. Why? Because the puppymiller will move elsewhere, but still sell in your area; and the byb will still be around under the radar. All that law will do is put ethical breeders out of business and leave breeding of purebreds to puppy millers and bybs. That doesn't sound like a good solution--it certainly doesn't help the breed. Even the thought of that leaves those of us who love a breed, distraught.

There will always be irresponsible people who won't care and will do what they want to do...and the only way to ameliorate that problem is through education, so that prospective owners do care, and do their homework, and become instrumental in putting millers out of business by not buying from them... The market, unfortunately, drives the business--and IMO putting ethical breeders out of business is not going to change the market for millers--if anything, it will make it even more lucrative.

I don't think anyone is favoring puppymillers and byb's to ethical breeders Hazel. What I am suggesting are a few ideas. One - to cease breeding for 1 year and two - to help 'rescue' their specified breed and rehome. Take a purebred out of a shelter/pound, rescues will help that one extra little mixed mutt. It is no skin off of the rescue's nose...so there should be no skin off of a breeder who cares nose either. So 2 dogs saved with one good will.

As for millers and byb's...they are underground. Some exposed of course, but one would think that reputable ethical breeders would be making EVER attempt possible to help expose them and stop them from ruining their beloved specified breed.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by aslan

To be totally honest i don't get why a purebred in the show ring MUST be intact. How can a female beat a male when she doesn't have ummmmm danglybits. If you're so concerned with having a stud male,then bottle him. I do understand it's not as easy as that with a female. But seriously how does the dogs ability to still be able to produce make it any better than one that can't.

Don't they have those fake "balls" now for males so they don't lose the "look" of an intact male? And females are very difficult to even tell they have been fixed once they are healed and the fur has grown back. Yes, I understand the concept of show dogs being bred from show dogs. But if the case is that you don't get a champion for many years than that dog is too old to breed anyway. Maybe before being fixed do as aslan says - bottle them, take some eggs. It works for us.

[hazelrunpack]

I think they do try to expose the millers and BYBers, BenMax. Least the ones I know do--and rescue, as well.

But these types of laws do favor millers and bybs because they don't care if they're breaking the law. The ethical breeders do, and they're the only ones that will stop breeding. It will not impact the shelter overcrowding at all.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

Maybe before being fixed do as aslan says - bottle them, take some eggs.

It's also extremely expensive. I would imagine the costs of puppies would double or triple and send even more people to byb's . And unspayed females would still be necessary .

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by hazelrunpack

But these types of laws do favor millers and bybs because they don't care if they're breaking the law. The ethical breeders do, and they're the only ones that will stop breeding. It will not impact the shelter overcrowding at all.

You are absolutely right about this statement Hazel. The amount of breeder dogs that make their way into shelters are far far less than millers and byb's. I cannot dispute this fact.

I have yet to meet one breeder however that will take on a rescue. I am sure they are out there, but unfortunately I have not come across one..and I have made a few calls in my day.

[aslan]

i think they need to get as much input as possible from the Ethical breeders, things like don't breed before a certain age,only breed so many times, etc and start turning those practices into law.
You can only own so many dogs, any dogs of mixed breeds must be spayed/neutered.
A law needs to be passed changing them from being considered property to something more appropriate. change abuse laws, etc,,then they really need to find a way to enforce them. I'd much rather my tax dollars went to this than into some politicians vacation fund.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by aslan

i think they need to get as much input as possible from the Ethical breeders, things like don't breed before a certain age,only breed so many times, etc and start turning those practices into law.
You can only own so many dogs, any dogs of mixed breeds must be spayed/neutered.
A law needs to be passed changing them from being considered property to something more appropriate. change abuse laws, etc,,then they really need to find a way to enforce them. I'd much rather my tax dollars went to this than into some politicians vacation fund.

YES Aslan!

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

It's also extremely expensive. I would imagine the costs of puppies would double or triple and send even more people to byb's . And unspayed females would still be necessary .

So true. I'll just go back to my corner now and read.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

So true. I'll just go back to my corner now and read.

Truthfully, I first thought, "hey, what a great idea!" but then remembered how much a girlfriend of mine paid to go through that experience. I imagine it would be even more expensive for pets.

[aslan]

i think that depends on the situation Lp,,some breeders are capable of doing it themselves others will have a vet do it,,thus increasing the price,,unfortunately with a female it's got to be a vet. But as you said you still need an intact female either way.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Truthfully, I first thought, "hey, what a great idea!" but then remembered how much a girlfriend of mine paid to go through that experience. I imagine it would be even more expensive for pets.

Yeah but - farmers do it all the time with their prize bulls.
Like I said, if they harvested eggs at the same time as a female is being spayed then why not take them and freeze them. Yes, I know it may be more expensive but really, to hold eggs, if there was a facility for that I don't think it would be that bad. In my eyes the price breeders charge now for a puppy is outrageous.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by aslan

i think that depends on the situation Lp,,some breeders are capable of doing it themselves others will have a vet do it,,thus increasing the price,,unfortunately with a female it's got to be a vet. But as you said you still need an intact female either way.

They could let those females keep the baby holding part and when the time is right implant the eggs. They do that all the time with humans too. Just do a partial and get rid of the ovaries. I know, now I'm being really silly.

[luckypenny]

I really don't believe ethical/responsible breeders, nor show/working dogs are part of the problem (although I do agree it would be great if all were part of the solution). Maybe we don't see that very often here in Quebec because there are so few of them . The few breeders, or ppl who show their dogs that I do know, also either help, or run, rescues as well. I don't see them breeding their dogs left and right nor do I see them letting their dogs run free. They have too much invested in them, both financially and emotionally.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

In my eyes the price breeders charge now for a puppy is outrageous.

Don't laugh at me now ....but, even though I don't know the first thing about breeding, I do have a pretty good idea of what it takes to raise puppies. Even a 1000$ a pup doesn't sound unreasonable to me for all the work involved. Add to that all the expenses involved with the parents, showing, traveling, health testing, and the vet visits including x-rays, vaccines, dewormers, food, toys, bedding, a tonne of laundry soap, sleepless nights , etc., etc., I would imagine an excellent breeder losing money, not making it .

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

I really don't believe ethical/responsible breeders, nor show/working dogs are part of the problem (although I do agree it would be great if all were part of the solution). Maybe we don't see that very often here in Quebec because there are so few of them . The few breeders, or ppl who show their dogs that I do know, also either help, or run, rescues as well. I don't see them breeding their dogs left and right nor do I see them letting their dogs run free. They have too much invested in them, both financially and emotionally.

No, you're right. It doesn't happen often. Which makes half of the debate that has been going on now for what - 3 pages now - null and void.
The problem goes back to irresponsible pet owners and "breeders". Quebec is on the right path. I'm sure that Bill Bruce had some naysayers as well when he first came up with his solutions.

Now I really will go and sit in the corner and read.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

Don't laugh at me now ....but, even though I don't know the first thing about breeding, I do have a pretty good idea of what it takes to raise puppies. Even a 1000$ a pup doesn't sound unreasonable to me for all the work involved. Add to that all the expenses involved with the parents, showing, traveling, health testing, and the vet visits including x-rays, vaccines, dewormers, food, toys, bedding, a tonne of laundry soap, sleepless nights , etc., etc., I would imagine an excellent breeder losing money, not making it .

Yep, if you want to look at it that way, I suppose you are right. After all, breeding is a business. They don't just look at the individual puppy. They look at all of their investments. If you are looking at a breeding facility then yes, I would imagine they don't make much money. I myself was looking at the individual pup and one dog at a time being bred. There would be no showing or traveling. The rest, if broken down individually, can not cost 1500+ IF you are using sound, health checked dogs to begin with. Just my . And isn't that what breeders insist they do in the first place? Yes, if they had to do an emergency C on the mom, then it gets expensive. I have a customer who occasionally breeds his show girls too who just had an emergency section. They were in the States at the time and it cost him 4 grand.

Now can I go back to my corner? Really, I have to go to Costco and still haven't showered between feeding kitties, being on here, and cleaning up after a sick dog.

Oh yeah, forgot - laundry soap. You, mf, are an exceptional doggie momma. You clean, launder, give pups toys, quality food, etc. How many breeders do all of that? Even ones that have posted on here I see cement and grass under the pups feet.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

The problem goes back to irresponsible pet owners and "breeders".

That's what I believe anyways. The SPCA, as per contract, neuters dogs of irresponsible owners/byb's. If people aren't open to learning about the pet overpopulation or, decide they're going to add to it, then yes, I believe they should be forced to learn the hard way . And I'm glad this incident was brought to the public's attention because it will make more pay attention. I just wish that pound/rescue/shelter euthanasia statistics including some graphic photos be made readily available to the public as well. Like Hazel said, "and the only way to ameliorate that problem is through education, so that prospective owners do care, and do their homework, and become instrumental in putting millers out of business by not buying from them... The market, unfortunately, drives the business." If we cut the demand, we'll cut the supply.

[Chris21711]

Education is great ....but it takes long......in that long time, 1000's of animals die

[hazelrunpack]

All the more reason to hurry, then.

[luckypenny]

True Chris. That's why I'm glad the SPCA has chosen the route it has. Unfortunately, it's the only one we have on the island of Montreal. The other pounds are a private business so I don't see them changing their practices any time soon.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

That's what I believe anyways. The SPCA, as per contract, neuters dogs of irresponsible owners/byb's. If people aren't open to learning about the pet overpopulation or, decide they're going to add to it, then yes, I believe they should be forced to learn the hard way . And I'm glad this incident was brought to the public's attention because it will make more pay attention. I just wish that pound/rescue/shelter euthanasia statistics including some graphic photos be made readily available to the public as well. Like Hazel said, "and the only way to ameliorate that problem is through education, so that prospective owners do care, and do their homework, and become instrumental in putting millers out of business by not buying from them... The market, unfortunately, drives the business." If we cut the demand, we'll cut the supply.

Once again LP...well written as usual. (how long did it take to write this time? ).

Seriously, it makes tons of sense. Thank you.

[Chris21711]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

True Chris. That's why I'm glad the SPCA has chosen the route it has. Unfortunately, it's the only one we have on the island of Montreal. The other pounds are a private business so I don't see them changing their practices any time soon.

I think it's great....as long as they don't overstep their boundries. All help, any help is a win win situation.

@ Hazel.....it has taken years to reach the levels we are currently at, it is going to take years to make another small dent. Regardless of how fast one hurries, 1000's are still going to die

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

Love4himies, please tell me what benefit there is in desexing someone's show dog? Not all show dogs get bred from you know, even though they are intact, in fact when it is so hard to get a top show dog a lot of people won't retire them from the ring to breed with them. Like my first Ch.. I showed her for 8 years and never bred from her regardless of her quality. Actually, my beautiful red girl, Susie, another Ch. wasn't bred from either, and her brother, my best show winner, was not available at stud, or used by us either. We had a lot of fun at shows though. This dogmatic attitude that all must be equal puts me right off . And reading other posts it obviously is not the policy of the SPCA at all.

Please tell me why a "show dog" needs to be in tact??? Does that take away from it's physical appearance? Does it take away from it's mental capabilities?

You know, if there are going to be exceptions to laws (other than for medical reasons) why bother having the laws ?

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Please tell me why a "show dog" needs to be in tact??? Does that take away from it's physical appearance? Does it take away from it's mental capabilities?

Like you and others I do not understand the importance of this. I would so like to be educated on this.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by luckypenny

That's what I believe anyways. The SPCA, as per contract, neuters dogs of irresponsible owners/byb's. If people aren't open to learning about the pet overpopulation or, decide they're going to add to it, then yes, I believe they should be forced to learn the hard way . And I'm glad this incident was brought to the public's attention because it will make more pay attention. I just wish that pound/rescue/shelter euthanasia statistics including some graphic photos be made readily available to the public as well. Like Hazel said, "and the only way to ameliorate that problem is through education, so that prospective owners do care, and do their homework, and become instrumental in putting millers out of business by not buying from them... The market, unfortunately, drives the business." If we cut the demand, we'll cut the supply.

I think the majority of people are aware of the pet overpopulation. It has been on Oprah, the news, and don't forget Bob Barker asking everybody to spay/neuter their pets. Humans are selfish and are going to do what they want with little regard to the outcome unless it will affect them directly.

Originally Posted by Chris21711

Education is great ....but it takes long......in that long time, 1000's of animals die

I think what needs to change is what is "socially acceptable", even though there will still be those selfish people...

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by BenMax

I have yet to meet one breeder however that will take on a rescue. I am sure they are out there, but unfortunately I have not come across one..and I have made a few calls in my day.

But I thought breeders breed for the love of the dog Or is it only for the love of their own dogs

Sorry, couldn't resist, sorry

[Rottielover]

From what I understand from the breeders of rottweilers that I know, showing is the full dog. From top to bottom, what they are born with that is the whole point for ethical breeders,, to maintain the correct standard. I have heard of some people who show neuter their males and through operation add what is missing so to say, LOL but it is not correct nor ethical in the showing venue.
I could be wrong or mis interpretated the whole standard vs showing.
Benmax I know of a couple rottweiler breeders that have taken on a rescue, and Make damn sure their dog comes back to them if situation should arise.
I am fully into rescue as you know AKA Mercy, but for some people Showing is a hobby, others it is their life. To better of the breed.

[hazelrunpack]

Originally Posted by Chris21711

@ Hazel.....it has taken years to reach the levels we are currently at, it is going to take years to make another small dent. Regardless of how fast one hurries, 1000's are still going to die

That's true--but that's also true for any solution. Even if you can come up with the perfect solution to the mess, there will be inertia in the system and thousands will die. But the more the word gets out and the problem is addressed, the fewer will die in the future.

Originally Posted by BenMax

Like you and others I do not understand the importance of this. I would so like to be educated on this.

If you want to improve the breed, you breed from champions. If the champions are neutered, they can't breed. Then you have rely on less fit individuals to propagate your breed.

Originally Posted by Love4himies

I think the majority of people are aware of the pet overpopulation. It has been on Oprah, the news, and don't forget Bob Barker asking everybody to spay/neuter their pets. Humans are selfish and are going to do what they want with little regard to the outcome unless it will affect them directly.

I think what needs to change is what is "socially acceptable", even though there will still be those selfish people...

Humans are selfish and need that added little oomph to get them to do what is right--which is why education is so important. No law will touch someone who is non-law-abiding--but taking away the market for their goods will touch them, and perhaps make them change.

Changing what is socially acceptable is the aim of the education. Change people's opinions of pet store dogs and you've won more than half the battle. And here, at least, we've seen some of that change for the better.

I don't think the majority of people watch Oprah or Bob Barker and the news has precious little coverage of the problem. Although I'm not a fan of Oprah, I did watch that one show of hers and laud her for her efforts. I wish more celebrities would jump on the bandwagon since people seem to put so much store into what celebrities say these days.

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

But I thought breeders breed for the love of the dog Or is it only for the love of their own dogs

Sorry, couldn't resist, sorry

Well I needed that grouphug for sure L4H..as there were times I was totally blue with frustrations and an inability to understand why they would not help.

LP knows of some breeders that do help so there goes my agrument.