Hunter killed

[chico2]

We do know a few people who excitedly go on huntingtrips every year.
One particular hunter,has no qualms about killing anything that moves in the forest,be it bears,foxes,raccoons,dogs,cats or anything in his scope.
I have yet to see him bring home anything for the dinnertable.
I cannot help getting the feeling,his(and his friends) hunting is purely for the joy of killing,a macho thing
Yes,there are hunters who feed their families and although they kill an animal,are thankful for the food they provide and respect our wildlife,but I believe in 2006 these hunters are few and far between.
An ailing deer being taken down by a pack of wolves,is the way of nature,a crossbow or gun is not.
However,since we humans have decimated the predators habitat,I can understand to a point,where hunting is needed.
Any laws protecting female deer,mother bears etc..sounds good,but is this law ever upheld??
I sincerely doubt it,judging by the many orphaned animals ending up in sanctuaries,or worse yet,found starved to death.
I wish I could cook vegetables in a tasty fullfilling way,to end our meateating days,but I have yet to succeed
Not a day goes by that I don't think about the animal I am eating,the horror of factory farms and slaughterhouses,the pulsating blood that used to go through,the rare steak I am eating:sad:
Please do not suggest Tofuit's been tried and tested and it was the most horrid thing I've ever eaten...

[Golden Girls]

There are countries poor and starving, I am not talking about necessity.

Given a choice killing an animal with one shot and using all parts (no profit gained)IMO far less cruel than factory farming. I do agree it's hypocritical to be against hunters and eat meat. Besides supporting horrific cruelty your consuming hormones and antibiotics. Say what you will, you do not need meat, chicken or fish in your diets to go on breathing however I do respect people rights to eat what they chose.

In the wild animals kill animals - that's a fair game and understood, but do not confuse this with hunting and or saying your doing them a favor

I do not put animals before humans but I don't value an animal's life any less -they both feel pain. I just wish people would leave them alone, nature has it's own way of taking care of itself.

I look at hunting and all use of animals the same way I look at puppy mills - even if I'm the only one

Chico It takes time getting use to eating healthy ... I was never big on vegetables and I love them now. I do blood work twice yearly and I'm healthier than I've ever been - I swear.

[hazelrunpack]

Originally Posted by chico2

One particular hunter,has no qualms about killing anything that moves in the forest,be it bears,foxes,raccoons,dogs,cats or anything in his scope.
I have yet to see him bring home anything for the dinnertable.
I cannot help getting the feeling,his(and his friends) hunting is purely for the joy of killing,a macho thing
Yes,there are hunters who feed their families and although they kill an animal,are thankful for the food they provide and respect our wildlife,but I believe in 2006 these hunters are few and far between.

Yep, I've met This Guy, too...there are a few of Them out there--in the same way that there are Guys to go into bars looking for a fight and think it's manly to duke it out with someone in the alley...or the Road Rage Guy, or worse yet, the Drunk Driver. But you can't judge all of humanity by the bad guys (although I have to admit that in certain moods, I do ).

The vast majority of hunters I know are well-behaved, thinking individuals who enjoy the hunt whether they get their quarry or not. Despite the fact that the news covers mostly tragic/bad events, do you judge your neighbors by what you see on the news? Unfortunately, it's the Bad Hunters like the Guy you know who have the biggest braggadocio--the decent guys who go out aren't as vocal. You might know more hunters than you think--they just don't talk about it.

Originally Posted by chico2

Any laws protecting female deer,mother bears etc..sounds good,but is this law ever upheld??
I sincerely doubt it,judging by the many orphaned animals ending up in sanctuaries,or worse yet,found starved to death.

There are laws...and the penalties are stiff. Ethical hunters report poaching and other violations when they see them. Most of the orphaned animals we see around here are victims of car accidents. There are a whole lot more car/deer accidents in Wisconsin than there are illegally gotten deer. And most of the WI seasons take place after the young of the year are pretty much independent.

Originally Posted by chico2

Not a day goes by that I don't think about the animal I am eating,the horror of factory farms and slaughterhouses,the pulsating blood that used to go through,the rare steak I am eating

Bless you! I think that if you ask around, you'll find you are one of the few who do. Does that make most diners in steak houses unethical? No... It's a mark of how far Humans have displaced themselves from nature and the necessities of life. We take too much for granted IMO.

Originally Posted by chico2

Please do not suggest Tofuit's been tried and tested and it was the most horrid thing I've ever eaten...

Hey, chico2, in total agreement with you there!!

[2beagleboys]

I think alot of you need to get more educted on the matter....hunting and the hunter..
I Hunt and Im female to boot...
MybirdsEvil has named a few points..but there are many more..get yourself some eduction all.

[technodoll]

get yourself some eduction all.

you know, comments like that aren't going to get you anywhere on this forum... first, learn to speak English properly and second, learn to know the members before posting insulting comments like that. ok?

[Golden Girls]

1st off 2beagleboys, it's educated not educted I also wonder what you might have to offer that might change at least my opinion on this subject?

[hazelrunpack]

Originally Posted by 2beagleboys

I think alot of you need to get more educted on the matter....hunting and the hunter..
I Hunt and Im female to boot...
MybirdsEvil has named a few points..but there are many more..get yourself some eduction all.

This is about an exchange of ideas, 2beagleboys, not confrontation. The opinions differ, but the thoughtful posts in this thread are not from the uneducated. This is a tough topic--there are a lot of paradoxes involved, recognized by hunters and nonhunters alike. If you can contribute something to the exchange, that's all well and good, but you have to respect other people's opinions, and garner their respect for yourself, or it all comes down to a slapping match which will get you nowhere.

[technodoll]

thank you, HRP! that was my point, too...

[Frenchy]

OK so it's my turn now I just think there's enough meat at the supermarket and at the butcher without having to go in the natural habitat of these animals to kill some more. As for the overpopulation of these animals, we'll deal with it when the time comes.....oh yes, I am AGAINST.

[Frenchy]

As for the original subject (hunter gets killed) like someone else here mentioned ; when a bunch of armed people go in the woods, accidents are bound to happen.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

OK so it's my turn now I just think there's enough meat at the supermarket and at the butcher without having to go in the natural habitat of these animals to kill some more.

I just don't get this kind of logic.
My grandfather was a butcher, my dad has SEEN cows being slaughtered as have I. My grandmother at one time worked in a slaughterhouse she's seen the horrors of cows being slaughtered and processed. I've seen deer be shot, and I've processed the meat myself, and it's not NEAR as horrible as what happens to the food you get in the supermarket. Why is it considered so much more ethical to buy food at the butcher or the supermarket just because you're not having to do the dirtywork? Would you criticize the people like my grandfather and grandmother who actually have to kill or process the cows that are feeding you and your family? Yet hunters are criticized for shooting a wild animal for the meat.

Lets go back to the thread about killing rats for a second. How many of you were against shooting the rats? Rats are wild animals, albeit pests, but they're living things, why is it ok to shoot them and not deer? Because deer are pretty and rats aren't? Deer can become overpopulated and become pests just like any other animal, just because they're not small and creepy doesn't make it less ok to shoot them.

As for the overpopulation of these animals, we'll deal with it when the time comes.....oh yes, I am AGAINST.

The time HAS already come. The state I live in ups the hunting limit just about every year because there's so many deer. Though thousands are killed every year the population still goes UP not down. Believe me, there is NO shortage of deer here. There's thousands of deer hunted every year here, what if those thousands of deer were not killed, they would become overpopulated and starve EXTREMELY quick. Many many more would also be hit by cars on the highway causing human fatalities and the deaths of the deer.
And why is it more ok for a wild animal to kill a deer than someone to shoot it? Yeah, it's really pretty for a deer to get sick and be torn apart by another predator than to be shot in the head, not to me. Humans are predators, the only difference between us and a wild animal is that we have a conscience. A wolf doesn't feel bad when they kill a deer because they don't think about the fact that it was a living thing - just because you are aware of what you are eating doesn't make it wrong to eat it.

Oh yeah, and for all you others touting the fact that city people shouldn't hunt. I'm from the city, I now live in the country. Farming cows destroys so much land it's not even funny. Yeah, factory farms where they push the cows into stalls and pretty much torture them is bad too, but free range cattle take LARGE tracts of land to be raised on. Large pieces of land are cleared, trees are cut down, and habitat that could belong to those deer are destroyed. It's not much different with farming vegetables or grains. Large pieces of land are cleared, and habitat is taken from wild animals, that's not a good thing to me. If you buy from the supermarket you don't know where your food is coming from whether it's meat or not meat, so I'm not sure why buying food from a store should make you feel like you're so much better than someone who hunts deer, it's hypocritical IMO.
Like I said, my grandfather was a butcher, I've known about animal slaughter my whole life, and coming from the city I was always horrified that so many people there were against hunting even though the meat they're buying is so cruelly raised and killed. Many people didn't even know what part of the animal it came from, or what animal it came from for that matter, and didn't even associate the meat with an animal. It's like they blocked it out of their heads that they were even eating a living thing, and that's totally disresepectful to yourself AND the previously living being that you're shoving into your mouth, IMO.

BTW Frenchy, I'm not trying to pick on you or your post, it just allowed me to point out some of my opinions that I wanted to relay to everyone in the thread.

[Prin]

Umm... Just because we write in English, doesn't mean everybody's English here is flawless. And there are a lot of members whose first language is not English.. I don't think that should affect the respect they are given.

What I will say though is TELLING people to get educated and EDUCATING them are two different things. Telling doesn't get anybody anywhere.

[technodoll]

oh this beagle person's English is fine in her other posts, no worries, i check these things out before posting prin

ok no more threadjacking... back to the guy who got shot in the woods... who shot him BTW?

[100%doglover]

Hmmm, this is kind of a heated topic now isn't it! I actually haven't gotten around to reading all of the posts yet but hopefully will find the time later today...

Anyway, just wanted to pipe up and admit (even though it might be against the norm on this board) that I am actually for ethical hunting & even participate in it myself at times. The point for me is that there's ethical hunting and then there's unethical hunting and I have no tolerance for unethical hunters at all. I'm sure a lot of good points have already been brought up on both sides of the issue so I won't get into further detail as it's almost impossible to change anyone's mind on this topic....

[MyBirdIsEvil]

The point for me is that there's ethical hunting and then there's unethical hunting and I have no tolerance for unethical hunters at all.

I totally agree. I don't like the people at all who go out, don't site their guns in, don't really know how to shoot and just want to shoot at something. That's unsafe and it's cruel for any animal that that person may hit. Thing is though the number of people like that is slim compared to the number of people that hunt in a safe ethical manner, and those people ruin it for the rest of us. Just like whoever shot the man in the article, there is absolutely NO reason that person should have been out hunting, it makes it unsafe for the rest of the hunters who actually hit what they're aiming at and know how to safely use their firearms.
Unless you know for sure you're going to hit that deer and not someone else, DON'T pull the trigger. Your hand shouldn't even be anywhere near that trigger until you know for sure that you are aimed at what you want to hit.
Anyone who owns a gun should know that gun, know how to use it and know how to safely unload it, load it and handle it, whether that gun is a .22 being used for just shooting targets or a larger caliber for hunting.
That's the sad part about the article - most people are in little danger of being shot while out hunting. More people are killed in car accidents or other daily activities, but he just happened to be around some idiot (the idiot could have been him for that matter, the article didn't say) who couldn't behave in a safe manner. The accident could have been prevented had the person followed proper safety guidelines.
As with ANY potentially dangerous object (be it large machinery like a car, power tools, chemicals etc.), if people know what they're doing and follow the rules, they're not unsafe. There are MANY potentially dangerous things out there, where the only thing that makes them dangerous is the people that use them improperly.

[technodoll]

Anyone who owns a gun should know that gun, know how to use it and know how to safely unload it, load it and handle it

totally agree! but the problem with this is all the SHOULDS. yes, in an ideal world... but in reality we all know this isn't what happens. how many unskilled hunters just injure an animal, which then escapes and is left to die a long painful death? is this really necessary?

[MyBirdIsEvil]

totally agree! but the problem with this is all the SHOULDS. yes, in an ideal world... but in reality we all know this isn't what happens. how many unskilled hunters just injure an animal, which then escapes and is left to die a long painful death? is this really necessary?

Not that many. Most people are looked down on for just injuring a deer, and most people don't wanna track an injured deer down and kill it.
How many deer are injured and run off after being hit by a car. A LOT. And it's a lot more when there's a huge overpopulation. They all need to find a place to eat so they move around a lot more, which includes having to run accross roads and highways.

Is it necessary? Yes, as I said before deer overpopulate and starve and cause all kinds of other problems. Just because they're large and pretty doesn't mean they can't turn into pests either.


As far as the "SHOULDS", how many people are let loose to drive a car and end up killing someone? Believe it or not, cars are more complicated to operate than a gun, and people are let loose in those all the time.
That said, driving is a necessity and so is hunting. Humans are the only meat eater in a lot of areas that can keep the deer population in check.
And like I said, raising free range cattle and even growing grain has A LOT more impact on land than going out and shooting a deer. Have you never seen miles worth of soybean fields? Miles worth of corn fields? Rice fields? HUGE pastures of cattle. I have, I live between them all, and the impact is scary. They also have to burn these fields off (the grain and veggie ones I mean) after the growing season which puts polution into the air.
Eating meat from the store or eating just veggies and grains, low impact? I don't think so. You can NOT grow and raise enough food for a huge population of people without having a huge impact on the enviroment, and deer hunting would be the least of my worries.

Think about energy waste.
Grains have to be grown which requires a lot of fuel and energy. They then have to be transported by some kind of vehicle (which includes planes or boats for imports) to a processing facility which is using electric to process. From there they have to be taken by truck to the grocery store. You then have to drive your car to the store to pick it up. You then have to use some kind of fuel if you plan to cook it.
Same for meat. Grains have to be grown, processed, transported etc. to feed the animals. The animals then have to be transported, slaughtered processed and then shipped to the store where you most likely have to drive your car there to pick it up, etc.
It's a lot more complicated than just "Don't hunt! It's mean!".

Then there's the amount of land that has to be destroyed just to feed people. Whether it be grains or meat there are large portions of land being destroyed in order to grow those products and put them in the store for you to buy.

[technodoll]

MyBird, i'm not discussing the ethics of factory farming or reckless drivers here... i know the sad facts as well as you do i'm just saying there are many unskilled hunters out there who have no business handling guns of any kind (proof being what started this whole thread...) and since there is no way to control these idiots, hunting season makes a walk in the woods dangerous for everyone including the animals shot for "sport" - YES it IS considered a sport, as sick as it sounds even if you're a skilled and ethical hunter, that doesn't make the bad ones go away. Deer overpopulation? OK just re-introduce the natural predators which were almost wiped out due to starvation and ensuing disease. problem solved (ok this is simplistic, but just proves how we humans have screwed up natural habitat et al). sigh. guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue... you go hunt, and i'll not hunt nor eat any product of hunting

[MyBirdIsEvil]

and since there is no way to control these idiots, hunting season makes a walk in the woods dangerous for everyone including the animals shot for "sport

You can't control ALL idiots anywhere. Here you are required to take hunter safety courses before you can even get a deer tag, so the people going out and hunting legally know how they're supposed to behave when they hunt. Those that don't take hunter safety courses and go shoot a deer are poaching which is illegal. Also, people often make walks in the woods dangerous for themselves by not wearing bright colors, or by hiking in areas specifically designated for hunting, there are idiots on both sides.

And the only reason I mention ethics is to get people thinking. Several people in here mentioned that it's better to buy from the store. People drive to the store and buy food without thinking of the energy wasted getting the food to them.

Deer overpopulation? OK just re-introduce the natural predators which were almost wiped out due to starvation and ensuing disease.

You're right that is simplistic. As much as some people hate to accept it damage has already been done to those predators habitat.
You know what one of main causes of damage to wild animals habitat is? FARMING. That's my point. When you buy groceries from the store you're not HELPING wild animals, you're helping in many ways to take their habitat away, why does no one see that?
When you buy rice there are HUGE pieces of land flattened, levees built and fields flooded. When you buy soy products, there are huge pieces of land destroyed, tilled and planted to send soy products to the grocery store.
When you buy corn products, land is flattened, fields planted and not to mention corn is a HUGE destroyer of topsoil.
That's just a few of the impacts that are caused by growing food. My point is, hunting is one of the least impactful practices to feed oneself.
Missouri is one of the biggest growers of rice and other grains. WHOLE swamps were destroyed to grow grains to send to the grocery store for people to eat. You're screwed either way, humans cause a huge impact to feed themselves, and going to the store to buy food doesn't make you a better person than someone hunting. THAT is the attitude that pisses me off "I'm better than you, I don't kill my food". I'm sorry, ANYONE buying from the store is also causing a huge impact on native animal habitat, so I don't get why some people who don't hunt act so high and mighty about it.
I don't care whether someone hunts or buys from the store, I just don't like that "I'm better than you" attitude that some people put forth because they buy from the store instead or don't eat meat.

[Prin]

Originally Posted by technodoll

Deer overpopulation? OK just re-introduce the natural predators which were almost wiped out due to starvation and ensuing disease.

Originally Posted by MBIE

You're right that is simplistic. As much as some people hate to accept it damage has already been done to those predators habitat.

Either way, we've proven over and over that we are NOT good at being "in charge" of ecosystems and biodiversity and no amount of flip flopping is going to change that. Whether we introduce predators or shoot the prey ourselves, we're not fixing things. We just aren't. All we can do is STOP and let things heal. We are not the bosses of nature: we can't destroy it because we believe we are smart enough to recreate it afterward. Who do we think we are?

[MyBirdIsEvil]

We just aren't. All we can do is STOP and let things heal. We are not the bosses of nature: we can't destroy it because we believe we are smart enough to recreate it afterward. Who do we think we are?

How do you suggest stopping? It's not that easy.
People are consumers, people want to be able to just run to the store, or go out to a restaurant and eat. How is not hunting helping the ecosystem?
That's the only point I want to put across, buying from the store does NOT mean you're helping the ecosystem. Ignoring the fact that storebought food causes huge pieces of land to be destroyed is NOT helping the ecosystem.
Hunting deer does very little to destroy an ecosystem compared to building stores, growing food, etc., which is why I don't get the rabid anger towards it.
You buy from the store, you hurt wild animals.
You go hunt, you hurt wild animals.
ALL you can do is choose the one that is the lowest impact, and organized hunting is the lesser of the two evils IMO.

[technodoll]

You know what one of main causes of damage to wild animals habitat is? FARMING. That's my point

i agree. totally. farming is land-rape.... but since i can't change farming.. and i can choose not to contribute to more deaths by hunting... i don't hunt. why add to the pile, you know? it's not much, but it's better than nothing IMO. sigh.

[Prin]

I know we can't stop- we're human. What I'm trying to get across is that we have to stop thinking that we can fix what we break ourselves, and stop using that thinking to make things morally and environmentally ok. It's not ok. That's all. None of it is ok. There are too many humans in this world consuming too much. It just not ok and there's nothing to justify it on a moral level.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

but since i can't change farming.. and i can choose not to contribute to more deaths by hunting

Farming relies on people to buy the products. The more consumers the more land is destroyed. ONE cow relies on a whole heck of a lot of grain to feed itself. ONE cow takes up a heck of a lot of room. ONE cow requires fuel for transport, a place to kill it, plastic to package it in, ALL kinds of things.

You sure as heck CAN choose not to contribute to hunting, that's your choice, but you're causing destruction to other animals, land, the air, everything whether or not you hunt, so I don't see why you'd feel so much better about buying your food instead.

I personally feel bad if I buy food from the store because of how much energy I'm wasting and land I'm destroying.
I also feel terrible about killing a deer and processing it, but I'm only killing that one deer to feed myself and my family. When I buy meat from the store I'm causing ALL KINDS of destruction to people and animals, which personally makes me feel worse.

You guys talk so much about how stopping puppy mills requires not buying from pet stores, NOT contributing money to that terrible business. ALL business works like that.
Well when you don't contribute money to slaughterhouses, farms, grocery stores, etc., you cause them to produce a whole hell of a lot less food, and destroy a whole hell of a lot less land, displacing less wildlife.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

That's all. None of it is ok. There are too many humans in this world consuming too much. It just not ok and there's nothing to justify it on a moral level

That's why I'm not having kids, there's already too many humans IMO, but that would start a whole other argument .

There's many ways to lessen your impact on the earth, and I just don't think buying from the grocery store is one of them.

[Prin]

I don't think Techno eats meat... I think her doggies do, but she doesn't. Am I right?

So that's not really contributing to farming for her person.

[technodoll]

so we're all supposed to turn into one giant amish community? wow.. that would sure fly in the middle of the city, LOL!

I don't think Techno eats meat... I think her doggies do, but she doesn't. Am I right?

yep... i eat very little meat, and only when others make it for me. i could choose to own hamsters (non-carnivorous pets) but i tried to go biking and swimming with one, and it just wasn't the same... plus the darn collar kept slipping off... finally got scooped up by an eagle and that was that. LOL!!

[MyBirdIsEvil]

So that's not really contributing to farming for her person.

Veggies and grain don't just appear in thin air. My b/f used to work for a crop duster pilot, and many farmers. I also happen to live surrounded by many of these things, and I can tell you - Grains and veggies destroy a lot, A LOT of land.

[Prin]

Yes, but veggies and grain for cows destroy MUCH MUCH more land.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

so we're all supposed to turn into one giant amish community? wow.. that would sure fly in the middle of the city, LOL!

Nope, as I said, I'm from the city and there's no way to get around that stuff.

But I feel I'm saving a heck of a lot of energy by just killing and eating ONE deer on my own instead of buying a cut of meat from the store.

I'm not saying people go hunt, I personally don't like shooting deer though I'll butcher the meat, but I just think it's hypocritical to look down on hunters for feeding themselves in a different way.