Brad Pattison Gets Annoyed

[MIA]

Originally Posted by Lynne_B

And, so why did you want people to watch that with the sound off?

It was suggested by my friend who shared the video with me and how I first watched it, so that one can watch the body language of the dog and Brad not learn how to put a dog in a down, that's not the purpose of me posting the video. The purpose of posting the video is to watch the body language of the dog and Brad, period.

[Lynne_B]

Oh, ok I understand now. What about Rudy's and/or Brad's body language bothered you, just so I understand what part of it you are referring to. Is there something specific that you wanted to point out?

[Bailey_]

I realize I'm a bit late coming into this conversation, so bear with me if I rehash some old points.

I think BenMax made a very important point, it is IMPERATIVE to meet and deal with other trainers who use a variety of methods before we come to conclusion that one-way is the best way. Not only do I think that this makes us the best possible owners for our dogs, but it also keeps us open-minded in remembering that just because someone says/does something to their pet, does not mean it is the best way.

I personally learned so much from Brad Pattison and am extremley grateful for everything that he taught me. I really don't think that I would be the kind of dedicated trainer I am today, if it hadn't been for his energy and passion.

However. With that said, I don't use many of the methods that Brad does, simply because through my own experience and education I have found other methods that I believe to be far more effective, faster, and better for the dog in question. I'm not saying Pattisons methods don't work, or that they aren't safe; and I have NEVER seen Brad hurt a dog - despite the uncomfortable feeling people get when watching a video of his corrections - Lynne is right, I don't feel it's fair to judge someone based on a 30 second video - to do so is simply iggnorant of time allowance, and the fact that we are not there in person to judge the actions.

BUT. I would never put a potentially aggressive (or anxious) dog into a situation with a group of other un-trained, unpredictable dogs. Dogs instigate one another, be it through eye contact or body language. I personally never have group classes more than five dogs, and only after an assessment are they allowed to join the class. I once participated in a class of Brads that held over 30 dogs and even more people, which honestly opened my eyes a bit to the fact that while I love and adore Brad...I do feel that he has become caught up with fame and fortune.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by ancientgirl

I guess we didn't see the same video. I saw a man pull a dog up by the leash, from the down position, with a bit more enthusiasm than it warranted.

I think this can go around and around and nobody will change their opinions, at least I know I won't.

Hmm, I suppose I don't see the same thing. When I watch this video I see a relaxed, attentive dog that trusts his handler. He also seems quite calm -Notice Rudy sniffing the ground, investigating the grass.

[MIA]

Originally Posted by Lynne_B

Oh, ok I understand now. What about Rudy's and/or Brad's body language bothered you, just so I understand what part of it you are referring to. Is there something specific that you wanted to point out?

It's not about what "bothered" me... I want those who think this is correct to step away from who is in the video and watch it objectively and really think, is this a good way to teach down.

[Lynne_B]

What did you think when you first watched it? I'm curious to know how others interpret the body language. For me personally while training my dog I really had to focus on my own body language, like posture, tension, etc. I was slouching and had tensed shoulders all the time without even realizing it (until someone else pointed it out), so it's easy to overlook. Plus you don't get to see yourself a lot when out and about, so it's good when others can point out how something looks when you don't realize it yourself. Same for observing others, and other dogs. One of the biggest misunderstandings can occur when someone sees a dog with a wagging tail. Typically from what I've read and learned, it means a dog is interested in social interaction. That can mean play, or aggressive behaviour. Tail down can mean fear, or submission. Barking can be mean, or playful, depending on how you hear it, and whether or not you know other signs to look for.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Hmm, I suppose I don't see the same thing. When I watch this video I see a relaxed, attentive dog that trusts his handler. He also seems quite calm -Notice Rudy sniffing the ground, investigating the grass.

So. It doesn't bother you at all that after he gets the dog to lay down (by applying pressure to the COLLAR-pulling down on his neck), he then picks the dog UP by his collar, holding his front feet off the ground? At at one point, he actually adjusts the dogs position by swinging his front feet (again, hanging him by his neck) where he wants them.

You really don't see a problem with this?

And my husband calls me aggressive.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

So. It doesn't bother you at all that after he gets the dog to lay down (by applying pressure to the COLLAR-pulling down on his neck), he then picks the dog UP by his collar, holding his front feet off the ground? At at one point, he actually adjusts the dogs position by swinging his front feet (again, hanging him by his neck) where he wants them.

You really don't see a problem with this?

And my husband calls me aggressive.

Actually if you'll read my post that I just made a few comments above, I made it very clear that I don't follow a lot of Brads methods. While I don't consider them unsafe as some other people might, I still won't follow them.

With that said, what I was replying to regarding this video was the dogs behavior as it was commented that we needed to watch Rudy's body language, implying that he was terrified or something during this clip, which I did not agree with.

[MIA]

Nothing was implied, at least by me. I made zero comments.

[Bailey_]

The purpose of posting the video is to watch the body language of the dog and Brad, period.

Then I must've misunderstood what this meant?

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Actually if you'll read my post that I just made a few comments above, I made it very clear that I don't follow a lot of Brads methods. While I don't consider them unsafe as some other people might, I still won't follow them.

With that said, what I was replying to regarding this video was the dogs behavior as it was commented that we needed to watch Rudy's body language, implying that he was terrified or something during this clip, which I did not agree with.

Drag a dog around by his neck long enough and he gets used to it. Kind of like women who are abused can't see it. Doesn't make it right.

[Lynne_B]

So then would you be surprised to know that rarely have I seen Rudy with a leash on? Any time we were in class, Rudy was off leash. He is THAT reliable. The only time I've ever seen him with the leash on is when Brad is trying to demonstrate something, other than that, he is off leash and responds immediately to verbal and hand signals. Far from the abused dog you make him out to be. I'm sorry but your comment is quite unfair, uncalled for, and more inflammatory than productive in my opinion.

[MIA]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Then I must've misunderstood what this meant?

Apparently you did, as my statement said, WATCH the body language. How does that statement imply anything? I gave an instruction. I didn't say anything in regards to the dog, or Brad. I said the purpose of posting the video is to watch the body lanugage. There has been NO indication was to what I see personally in the video, on purpose as I was hoping it would be watched.

Lynne, I really want you to watch the video of down and forget about the person, the dog and your experiences, watch the dog and what he's looking at and how he's reacting. Remove all your bias this is NOT about Brad. I will find some other videos later when I can to post for you to see differences. Just do that and it's not for me, it's for your benefit only.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Lynne_B

So then would you be surprised to know that rarely have I seen Rudy with a leash on? Any time we were in class, Rudy was off leash. He is THAT reliable. The only time I've ever seen him with the leash on is when Brad is trying to demonstrate something, other than that, he is off leash and responds immediately to verbal and hand signals. Far from the abused dog you make him out to be. I'm sorry but your comment is quite unfair, uncalled for, and more inflammatory than productive in my opinion.

Thirty years ago, training dogs by dragging them around by the neck was standard operating procedure and people who were serious about training certainly had dogs that performed wonderfully off leash as well as on. That was 30 years ago. I have met dogs that were completely trained with e-collars on high and they are completely reliable also. That certainly doesn't mean that the dog wasn't abused.

While my comment may have been inflammatory - it is very accurate. Every video I have seen of him and a dog is, in my opinion, abusive. He is attractive and charismatic and mean. The first two got him his show and allow people to over look the last.

[Lynne_B]

My observations (although I will admit that I find it hard to do so without being biased, but I'll do my best) are that Rudy is sniffing the grass when down. When he gets pulled up, his ears prick forward and he looks up at Brad, so he is attentive. Hehe at one point he puts his head WAY up, like he's waiting for Brad to scratch under his chin or something. At least that's what mine does when he wants a chin scratch, I don't really know what else it could mean. When he is laying on the ground at the end and Brad is patting his belly, he seems relaxed. I'd try watching it again to see if I missed anything, but my work rules only allow so much access to facebook in one day .

[pattymac]

The main thing that I noticed from the video is there is no interaction, pull the dog down, pull the dog up. no eye contact from the dog, if anything the dog is avoiding any more interaction than necessary. He's like a little limp rag. I want my dog to engage me, look at me when I'm giving a command.

[Lynne_B]

How is the video describing how to do a chest massage abusive? I think that one is on that facebook account as well.

There's plenty of interaction that I saw. Rudy does look at Brad, more than once, and Brad praises Rudy by petting him.

[Arlo]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Hmm, I suppose I don't see the same thing. When I watch this video I see a relaxed, attentive dog that trusts his handler. He also seems quite calm -Notice Rudy sniffing the ground, investigating the grass.

Have you read Turid Rugaas's "Calming Signals", or seen the DVD? Please do, if you haven't. Sniffing the ground is a calming signal, it is intended to "turn off" aggression. Same goes for tongue flicks/lick lips, looking away, turning their face away, and yawning. This is what the dog does when it is under stress and trying to avoid conflict. Watch for these behaviours when you are observing a trainer, it tells you more about the dog's state of mind than how 'obedient' the dog appears. Just because the dog performs a behaviour that is "commanded" of it, does not mean that the dog is happy or enjoying the training process. "Pavlov is always on your shoulder."

Does anyone have an alternative link to the original video? It has been removed, as have most Brad Pattison videos.

[CearaQC]

Originally Posted by MIA

Here's another training video, please watch it with the sound off.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=32083761264

WTF?? Sheeba can go from lay down to the sit position on her own with just verbal or hand signal. And I never had to use physical touch or a collar tug during training either of my girls. I used only yummy snacks, verbal commands and some hand signals.

I don't agree with that training method in the video at all. Poor little dog!

[cell]

Originally Posted by Arlo

Have you read Turid Rugaas's "Calming Signals", or seen the DVD? Please do, if you haven't. Sniffing the ground is a calming signal, it is intended to "turn off" aggression. Same goes for tongue flicks/lick lips, looking away, turning their face away, and yawning. This is what the dog does when it is under stress and trying to avoid conflict. Watch for these behaviours when you are observing a trainer, it tells you more about the dog's state of mind than how 'obedient' the dog appears. Just because the dog performs a behaviour that is "commanded" of it, does not mean that the dog is happy or enjoying the training process. "Pavlov is always on your shoulder."

Does anyone have an alternative link to the original video? It has been removed, as have most Brad Pattison videos.

[dogcatharmony]

Originally Posted by Arlo

Have you read Turid Rugaas's "Calming Signals", or seen the DVD? Please do, if you haven't. Sniffing the ground is a calming signal, it is intended to "turn off" aggression. Same goes for tongue flicks/lick lips, looking away, turning their face away, and yawning. This is what the dog does when it is under stress and trying to avoid conflict. Watch for these behaviours when you are observing a trainer, it tells you more about the dog's state of mind than how 'obedient' the dog appears. Just because the dog performs a behaviour that is "commanded" of it, does not mean that the dog is happy or enjoying the training process. "Pavlov is always on your shoulder."

Does anyone have an alternative link to the original video? It has been removed, as have most Brad Pattison videos.

I have one problem with that........I was told and have observed with my own dog that licking of the lips is a sign that aggression is going to happen. It is a warning signal to back off. Same as yawning, can be a sign to back off

[Bailey_]

Apparently you did, as my statement said, WATCH the body language. How does that statement imply anything? I gave an instruction. I didn't say anything in regards to the dog, or Brad. I said the purpose of posting the video is to watch the body lanugage. There has been NO indication was to what I see personally in the video, on purpose as I was hoping it would be watched.

Lynne, I really want you to watch the video of down and forget about the person, the dog and your experiences, watch the dog and what he's looking at and how he's reacting. Remove all your bias this is NOT about Brad.

MIA, it seems to me like you have an opinion about how Rudy acted, which is exactly why I commented on it. I saw it differently.

You did not say what you found wrong, and my comment regarding the video was simply that I did not find Rudy to be in any distress whatsoever. Thats all.

Have you read Turid Rugaas's "Calming Signals", or seen the DVD? Please do, if you haven't. Sniffing the ground is a calming signal, it is intended to "turn off" aggression.

Actually, this is only partly correct. Please don't forget that sniffing also communicates to other dogs that the sniffing dog is just minding his or her own business and is not interested in what the other dogs or people are doing - in other words, they are completley relaxed and in their own mindspace. It also says that they will not take part in any dominance challenges or otherwise interacting with the other dogs. Please be aware that dominance and aggression are TWO very different things.

Rudy's sniffing in this video coupled with his attentive attention to Brad - the eye contact, and his relaxed posture in the end is indicating that he's not turning off 'aggression' but he's responding to Brads commands, confident in his leader, and calm.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Lynne_B

How is the video describing how to do a chest massage abusive? I think that one is on that facebook account as well.

There's plenty of interaction that I saw. Rudy does look at Brad, more than once, and Brad praises Rudy by petting him.

So, I didn't watch the chest massage one - I assume he isn't teaching the DOG anything but I will watch it later.

I particularly liked the stairs one. Not only does he jerk the dog off the steps but he kicks him in the butt. Classy.

Sorry, you can defend him and his methods all night long but you are never going to get me to believe that the jerk and hit method that he uses is better then anything else or more enlightened.

FYI - I did find it interesting that since I don't live in Canada, I can't see the video clips on his website.

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Rudy's sniffing in this video coupled with his attentive attention to Brad - the eye contact, and his relaxed posture in the end is indicating that he's not turning off 'aggression' but he's responding to Brads commands, confident in his leader, and calm.

The only time I see that dog looking at Brad is AFTER he has been lifted up by his collar. As for the dog's posture while being lifted - he makes himself go limp, which is certainly not the same as calm.

[pattymac]

his show is being aired on Animal Planet with the title of In the Dog House.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

So, I didn't watch the chest massage one - I assume he isn't teaching the DOG anything but I will watch it later.

I particularly liked the stairs one. Not only does he jerk the dog off the steps but he kicks him in the butt. Classy.

Sorry, you can defend him and his methods all night long but you are never going to get me to believe that the jerk and hit method that he uses is better then anything else or more enlightened.

FYI - I did find it interesting that since I don't live in Canada, I can't see the video clips on his website.

No one here is trying to make you believe that his methods are better than others. In fact, I think Lynne has stated more than once that she's just trying to show a different perspective on the story, especially since she has personally seen his methods in action which many people who are bashing him - have not.

Its everyones right as to what they believe and what they don't, but it would be awesome if the thread could maintain a respectful tone instead of name-calling and sick comparisons to women abuse.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

The only time I see that dog looking at Brad is AFTER he has been lifted up by his collar. As for the dog's posture while being lifted - he makes himself go limp, which is certainly not the same as calm.

Rudy going limp, as you call it, looks more like submission to me, which as is shown in the video - is nothing more than a dog lying down on command. I don't know any dogs that do so stiffly?
He's showing extremley calm behavior with Brad which you can notice in the posture of his ears, the way he keeps his two legs straight while in the 'sit' and by not whining or avoiding eye contact with Brad.

So, I didn't watch the chest massage one - I assume he isn't teaching the DOG anything but I will watch it later

I'm curious as to why this would be a bad thing? Teaching the owners how to properly massage a dog, in order to avoid unneccessarily transferring high energy, is not a bad thing in my opinion.

[LavenderRott]

I'm not exactly sure what is sick about comparing animal abuse to abusing women, but so be it. To each his own.

I wanted to see how Brad trains DOGS so I looked at the videos that showed that. I already heard how he talks to the humans in his classes.

As for Rudy's "submission" as you call it - we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Personally, I want my dogs to engage me and respect me - not submit to me.

Anyway. I'm done. Trying to get YOU to see the other side is just as pointless as you trying to tell me that this guy isn't abusive.

Have a nice night.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

I'm not exactly sure what is sick about comparing animal abuse to abusing women, but so be it. To each his own.

I wanted to see how Brad trains DOGS so I looked at the videos that showed that. I already heard how he talks to the humans in his classes.

As for Rudy's "submission" as you call it - we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Personally, I want my dogs to engage me and respect me - not submit to me.

Anyway. I'm done. Trying to get YOU to see the other side is just as pointless as you trying to tell me that this guy isn't abusive.

Have a nice night.

If there was seriously a case of animal abuse, then yes - I could understand the comparison that you made regarding women abuse. In this case, I can't, and I find it uncalled for.

Trust me, I DO see the other side. I believe in it, I'm open to discussing it, and as I have said to you already, I personally don't carry out some of the particular methods that Brad does, including his version of 'down', because I have found other methods through my own education and training that are more effective than this particular one. It's not to say that I think he's abusing Rudy, I just believe that there are better ways to achieve what he's trying to do.

[lUvMyLaB<3]

Originally Posted by Lynne_B

What did you think when you first watched it? I'm curious to know how others interpret the body language. For me personally while training my dog I really had to focus on my own body language, like posture, tension, etc. I was slouching and had tensed shoulders all the time without even realizing it (until someone else pointed it out), so it's easy to overlook. Plus you don't get to see yourself a lot when out and about, so it's good when others can point out how something looks when you don't realize it yourself. Same for observing others, and other dogs. One of the biggest misunderstandings can occur when someone sees a dog with a wagging tail. Typically from what I've read and learned, it means a dog is interested in social interaction. That can mean play, or aggressive behaviour. Tail down can mean fear, or submission. Barking can be mean, or playful, depending on how you hear it, and whether or not you know other signs to look for.

EXACTLY!! See my point now??? If that is the proper energy to use when training a dog, then why was Brad SO tense and angry when training the dog in the first video? See why I think it was wrong? Brand being a 'leader' having control over other peoples dogs, and using that frustrated anger could have fed all the other dogs, and caused a huge problem.

Don't forget we are not judging brad on just this video, I have seen his show a zillion times. He has had some good points that I can learn from. But I HATE the way he talks to people, thinks he is always right, a control freak. I HATE the method of pinning a dog 22 times a day. My opinions have been based on seeing a lot from him, and this video does not surprise me.

Yes Rudy is an obedient dog.. So are all the dogs I saw in the trials a few weeks ago that were trained with PRT. You can muscle and force a dog into submission and get a well trained dog.. Same with horses, people used to 'break' them.. we lean, and do better, and now learned that horses too can be trained in a gentle way.

I do think you have rose colored glasses on Lynne.. You cannot say that in that video he did do something wrong, you defend him. He should not have handled someone's dog that way, in anger, taking frustration out on the dog. I don't care if it jumped, pulled, refused to sit and hung his front paws in the air. You should not teach it to not do that by harming it, a dog can learn to listen to you without FORCING it to do what you want..